Help me with a hefe

Feel free to skip to my summary and respond:

So, this is the third hefe I've made... the brewing classic styles recipes, and I'm not thrilled with it. I've done an extract hefe, a partial mash, and an all grain. Its one of my favorite styles so as you can see I've attempted one at each progression.

The extract was the best one. Its the only one to include dextrin specialty grains. I just listened to a basic brewing radio podcast with weyermann, which said all true german hefe's should have carahells - or what I understand to be an equiv to crystal 10L. And shouldnt be too dissimilar to dextrin malt? (is that a stretch?)

So I want to add cara hells to my recipe (or sub crystal 10L). And I also want your thoughts on 2 row vs pilsner malt. I feel like the pilsner malt made it SUPER light in color, which I dont like. I like my hefe to be a golden color, not clear. My brewing classic styles hefe's looks too clear, even with the yeast dumped in.

Lastly, is the yeast. I'm going with the Weihenstephan strain, but my favorite brewered hefe (the extract) was also the one done without a starter. I love Weihenstephan, so I'm looking for those Banana flavors, and I'm thinking that not making a starter produces the esters Im looking for. Is that true? Should I bother making a starter or not? It could also be fermentation temps, maybe I fermented too low last time (mid 60's per jamil's rec 62) - I want to go min 68-74 (let it rise) next time. But what about a starter? Is temp more to do with esters or is it "under" pitching?



So in summary:

1. Crystal 10L / Cara Hells - how much to add for a 5 gallon batch? To a typical 50/50 hefe or 60/40 wheat/pils or 2 row? I'm also looking for a maltier taste.
2. Rahr 2 row vs Pilsner ? What difference does it make in my hefe?
3. Starter or no starter? Looking for a banana flavor (wiehenstephan). But no Bubblegum.

Cheers!

1. I'm not sure. I have never really used it for my Hefes. I typically only use pilsner and malted wheat. I would let someone else speak on this. My rough estimate (shooting from the hip) 0.5# for a 5 gallon batch.

2. Pilsner is ideal as it will give more of the bready/cracker flavor associated with a hefe.

3. Getting a banana flavor should come from the fermenation temp and not the pitch rate. This is assuming you are using a wyeast 3068/white labs 300 or equivalent. With either you want to make sure you are pitching the correct amount of yeast. I would use Mr. Malty to determine if a starter is needed and what size.

So its only temp that factors in the flavor? I thought under pitching stresses the yeast and would cause more esters? That made sense to me as the only batch I didnt do a starter with also had the most banana flavors, but it also fermented slightly warmer - so it may be entirely contributed to the temp.

I've heard under-pitching creates more esters. Never done a side-by-side with the same recipe to see the differences though.

doctorRobert said:

So its only temp that factors in the flavor? I thought under pitching stresses the yeast and would cause more esters? That made sense to me as the only batch I didnt do a starter with also had the most banana flavors, but it also fermented slightly warmer - so it may be entirely contributed to the temp.

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Under pitching slightly will create more esters and you can try that but temperature is highly significant for controlling the banana/clove ratio. You do have to be careful though with underpitching as you do stand the chance of underattenuating as well.

Edwort has a great recipe for Heffe its one of the staples in my kegerator

Bavarian Hefe

If you are going for malty I highly suggest adding some munich and perhaps melanoidin. The Munich (you could also use Vienna) gives it that almost sour flavor (without being a sour) and the melanoidin is great for getting a decoction like flavor without doing a decoction mash. Check out my recipe for Munich hef:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f70/munich-hefewiezen-212317/

Thanks Patrick. I'm gonna try munich malt next time.

I've seen ed wort's but that's just a wheat/pilsner split. I'm looking for something more, like a schneider weiss. I also have read that the wheat/pilsner split is not as authentic as is assumed and that most bavarian brewers are using carahells or munich. I think this maybe whats missing from my hefe's. I'm also going to do a step mash next time.

I'd do 40/60 German pils/wheat wpl 300 or wyeast 3068 then do a double decoction if possible. loose decoction mash like Kai does in his video.
If you want to try something a little more fruity bubblegum like, give some Wyeast 3638 a go. You could do desert with that yeast.

With Bavarian hefe yeasts, you are right about under pitching to produce more esters by stressing the yeast. Temp also will play a part in your yeasts flavor profile. Keeping it around 63-64*F will subdue the esters, giving you more phenols (clove). Higher fermentation 68-70*F will bring more esters (banana)

If you are not going to do a decoction, then you need to add some other malts to round out the flavor. Melanoidins are present in Vienna, Munich malts, or Melanoidin malt if available can be used. Light crystals should only be used sparingly, if at all. The yeast does all the sweetening.

Noble hops hallertaur mittelfruh, or maybe a perle/tett combo bittering only, ibu around 12

They reason I brought up crystal 10l or carahells is because of a basic brewing radio podcast. They had this german fellow from Weyermann, and he said that malt, carahells, is used almost exclusively in hefe's. It's hard to find and others mentioned crystal 10l as a sub. And then I did some additional digging and found a lot of munich malts in hefe recipes. I also really like schneider weiss which is a little darker - and allegedly uses german "roasted" malts - however, the translation is suspect- i doubt its roasted malt.

This is one style I'm determined to master. Not ready for decoctions yet, Ill wait for the weather to warm up for that one. Will decoctions add any color? Mine have been coming out way too clear, even with the roused yeast. Reminds me a pilsner, instead of a that hazy gold color. Maybe a decoction will help with that.

Schneider Weiss has a lot of information on their site.. decoction is what brings their color and the starting gravity is 1.052 and terminal gravity is 1.011 with a 5.4%abv

they use 60%wheat malt and 40% pils

decoction mashing technique is used, and by the sounds of it, they do a triple decoction (a double would work)

lautering: they use three batches of sparge with 168 169*F water. so the last decoction step puts them at mashout temp of 168*F

The boil lasts for 60 mins.
They describe bittering and aroma varieties of hops from the hallertau region being used, so it appears they use 2 additions one bittering and one aroma.
says somewhere of some spicy hop notes. I would think some tett hops being in there

chilling they do a whirlpool and leave the hops, break, and trub, materials behind

you need to read the fermentation/carbonation part on their page.

Someone had told me they had gotten pretty close using wlp 380 fermenting at 64*f

as you will read they use spease to carbonate

http://www.schneider-weisse.de/inde...ohstoffe&sid=16220460330135329530876300639261

There is a picture of the recipe on a northern brewer forum, from the schneider resteraunt in munich. Its in german and listed out a roasted malt, which would still be a barley malt. Nobody I know knows for sure what that malt is though. I believe that because its so much darker than the other hefe's, and they do decoctions too.

the problem you have with the breweries over there is, a lot of the larger ones, do their own kilning, or have it kilned to their specs. The ingredients for Schneider Weiss on the website does say 60 wheat 40 barley malt not pilsner, no mention of roast, or specialty malts. I thought there was a pic from a chalk board Paulaner recipe on NB AG forum in a hefe thread that has been going on for a few years, but it sounded like more on the lines of a dunkelweizen. I'll have to look for the Schneider Weiss pic.

The other problem is getting a hold of their multi-strain proprietary yeast

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=53370&highlight=

60/40 wheat/barley could still include roasted barley, as they might consider that "barley" for the purposes of their marketing and other disclosures, with all the german beer laws.

So I really think that them kilning their own malt could be a big contributor, so maybe a little munich/melanoidin malt + decoction would get closer to their flavor. Between WLP300 and WLP380, i bet the yeast would get pretty close. I wonder what would turn out if both were pitched? I think i'm going to try that but that'll get expensive. Maybe I could wash the yeast but I have not had good luck reusing hefe yeast (but great results with 001)

what about roasting some barley in the oven? or using a roasted wheat? carawheat?

try some chocolate wheat malt or some dehusked carafa special
that little bit is more for color I woild think.

Oh Wait..
Did you try Kristens recipe?? He is one hell of a brewer. The yeast is the hard part. He also calls for a double decoction

doctorRobert said:

1. Crystal 10L / Cara Hells - how much to add for a 5 gallon batch? To a typical 50/50 hefe or 60/40 wheat/pils or 2 row? I'm also looking for a maltier taste.
2. Rahr 2 row vs Pilsner ? What difference does it make in my hefe?
3. Starter or no starter? Looking for a banana flavor (wiehenstephan). But no Bubblegum.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

I've read the whole thread and you're getting some solid advice. My Hefe's are usually a 30/70 or 40/60 split between German Pils and White Wheat (white wheat is readily available to me). I believe my base recipe is based off of Edwort's, which is also given in this thread.

1. The Crystal/Caramel 10L is used to provide color instead of doing a decoction mash. (The decoction mash was suggested by Jamil in his style profile one of the last two BYOs.)

2. 2 row is not one of the malts that is historically accurate for the style. Might be worth a shot though. Pils, specifically German or Bavarian Pils, are historically acurate for the style. I believe they are kilned higher than American/Canadian 2-row, which lends to a slightly darker color. (Don't quote me on that last sentence though.) I might try adding some Munich to my next one based on this thread in a ratio of Munich/Pils/Wheat 10/40/50.

3. I do a starter, but just to wake the yeast up. Temperature is going to be the major influence in flavor. My last one was fermented at 72 and it was way too much bubble gum. My best one so far was at 68 as it had bannana and, to a lesser extent, clove (still didn't like this one, but it was much more drinkable). My next one is going to be fermented at 62. In that BYO that is referenced in answer to 1, above, Jamil says to do a ferulic acid rest (the rest at around 100F) which is a precursor to isoamyl propelate which is the bannana flavor.

I have only used the Wyeast 3068 so far.

yeah i might try that, since it has the carafa III, just really surprised by the super low amount of hops. As you stated earlier there was a bitter and an aroma/flavor hop addition.

DrawTap88 said:

I've read the whole thread and you're getting some solid advice. My Hefe's are usually a 30/70 or 40/60 split between German Pils and White Wheat (white wheat is readily available to me). I believe my base recipe is based off of Edwort's, which is also given in this thread.

1. The Crystal/Caramel 10L is used to provide color instead of doing a decoction mash. (The decoction mash was suggested by Jamil in his style profile one of the last two BYOs.)

2. 2 row is not one of the malts that is historically accurate for the style. Might be worth a shot though. Pils, specifically German or Bavarian Pils, are historically acurate for the style. I believe they are kilned higher than American/Canadian 2-row, which lends to a slightly darker color. (Don't quote me on that last sentence though.) I might try adding some Munich to my next one based on this thread in a ratio of Munich/Pils/Wheat 10/40/50.

3. I do a starter, but just to wake the yeast up. Temperature is going to be the major influence in flavor. My last one was fermented at 72 and it was way too much bubble gum. My best one so far was at 68 as it had bannana and, to a lesser extent, clove (still didn't like this one, but it was much more drinkable). My next one is going to be fermented at 62. In that BYO that is referenced in answer to 1, above, Jamil says to do a ferulic acid rest (the rest at around 100F) which is a precursor to isoamyl propelate which is the bannana flavor.

I have only used the Wyeast 3068 so far.

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Thank you for the isoamyl propelate bit. I've never heard of that one yet. Only the acid rest for the clove flavor. That would be good for a weihenstephan clone.


Looks like I have a lot of brewing and drinking to do. I'm going to come up with 3 different recipes - one with munich, one with a small amount of carafa III, and then maybe another one with munich but with a different yeast strain.

that is per litre when broken down from their barrels.
Hersbrucker, tett, traditional, perle, spalt are all being grown in the hallertau region now days.
It may be a combo dosed at the beginning of the boil. hefes are low ibu brews

I was referring to Kristens recipe, 0.05 oz. for a 5 gallon recipe. It's questioned in the northern brewer thread. Somewhere I have to think a decimal point was missed, but he defends it.

what appears to have happened when he used promash to convert the recipe to 5 gallons by locking in ingredients to batch size. the hop portion wasn't upgraded. he also doesn't know the ibu's of their beer. i haven't seen that listed anywhere either. if we had that info it would help

if you use style guidelines and say 9 or 10 ibu's, it would be somewhere around a 1/2 ounce of hops that he listed at 60 min bittering addition

oh wait.. he has them listed as 3.3%AA so that would be a lot more.. like over 3/4 ounce. mine were based on default hersbrucker @4.75%AA

That makes sense, thanks. I think it's save to assume 10 to 12.

Thanks for all your help. It's very much appreciated.

doctorRobert said:

Thank you for the isoamyl propelate bit. I've never heard of that one yet. Only the acid rest for the clove flavor. That would be good for a weihenstephan clone.

Click to expand...

Hang on a tick. I was mistaken about what is produced during that rest. It's not isoamyl propelate, but instead 4-vinyl guaiacol. Sorry about that.

I also found this:
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/hr.asp?go=detailrz&idrz=13&umenue=yes&idmenue=42&sprache=2

Johann Baptist Weißbier (JBW)

A traditional, open-fermented and cask-conditioned Bavarian Hefeweissbier. Deep golden-brown color. Typical fruity Weissbier aroma.
Alcohol by volume: 5.0%.

Brewed: June 22nd, 2004.

Grain Bill (50 kg; 110 lbs.):

3% Weyermann® Acidulated Malt (1.5 kg; 3.3 lbs.)
10% Weyermann® Carahell® (5.0 kg; 11.0 lbs.)
27% Weyermann® Pilsner Malt (13,5 kg; 29.8 lbs.)
60% Weyermann® Pale Wheat Malt (29.5 kg; 65.0 lbs.)

Mash:
Mash in with 160 l (42.4 gal.) of brewing liquor at 35°C (95°F)
Raise mash temperature to 45°C (113°F)
Rest mash for 10 minutes
Raise mash temperature to 52°C (126°F)
Rest mash for 10 minutes
Raise mash temperature to 62°C (144°F)
Rest mash for 30 minutes
Raise mash temperature to 72°C (162 °F)
Rest mash for 30 minutes
Iodine test normal
Raise mash temperature to 78°C (172°F) for mash-out

Lautering:
1st wort run-off: 60 minutes
1st wort kettle volume: 130 l (34.3 gal.) at a gravity of 1.070 (17.4°P)
3 spargings with 50 l (13.2 gal.) each
Sparging length: 100 minutes total

Kettle:
Kettle volume at beginning of boil: 280 l (75.0 gal.)
Kettle gravity at beginning of boil: 1.047 (11.7°P)
Boil length: 60 minutes
Hops: 150 g (4.8 oz.) Hallertauer Hallertauer Tradition for bittering and aroma
Net kettle volume at end of boil: 260 l (68.7 gal.)
Original gravity (OG) at end of boil: 1.050 (12.4°P)

Fermentation:
Yeast: Weissbier yeast W 68 or Fermentis® Safbrew S-33
Pitching temperature: 18°C (64°F)
Fermentation® temperature: 18°C (64°F)
At an apparent gravity of 1.011 (2.85°P): Second pitching with Fermentis® Saflager W-34/70 dry yeast; addition of Weyermann® Munich Amber Liquid Malt Extract as Speise (priming) calculated to raise the gravity to 1.016 (4.05°P); and kegged immediately.
Warm lagering: In kegs for one week at approximately 20°C (68°F) at a keg pressure of 2.6 bar (37.7 psi)
Cold conditioning: In kegs at approximately 5°C (41°F).
Filtration: None


I thought this was really interesting with the carahell and Acidulated malt (which I've never heard of until now - but it's suppose to add a little bit of sour to it - which is present in a schneider weiss).


The one thing I'm really perplexed about is the aroma hops. Most german breweries suggest they use aroma hops, but they never disclose how much (even the above recipe), i'm assuming very little, like no more than 1/3 ounce at 5 or 10 minutes? I know most people use none at all.

And BYO has a schneider weisse clone of

7.4 lbs pale wheat
1.85 lbs pilsner malt
1.85 lbs vienna malt
0.53 lbs caramunich III

3/4 oz halltertaur mittlefruh 30 min addition
1 oz hallertauer muttlefruh 10 min addition

So a lot more hops than expected, and yet another grain bill

I dont think schneider actually uses that grain bill, but I think when it comes to cloning beers, we have to use a different grain bill for what we can't replicate with technique. ie we make orange by using red and yellow, while they can naturally make orange.

Wow so was reading through the bjcp guidlines and they list schneider weisse as a dunkel. I was quite surprised. So I guess I should shoot for more of a weihenstephan for my hefe if I was entering a comp.

I don't think I mentioned it in my earlier reply but the WLP 380 (Hef IV) is now my absolute favorite for hef yeast. I have tried most of the others now and this one (which I believe is the same as (wyeast 3333) is much more like the bavaian hefs that I love to drink. Someone mentioned fermenting at 64* - this will work but you will not get some of the fruitier flavors going this low. I do mine at 68 - 70 and I get some more banana without going all the way to bubble gum.