Experimental Recipe

I've brewed a few batches of beer so far, and most likely against my better judgement, I want to try brewing a recipe that is 100% my own. I've seen a bunch of cool recipes out there, but I want to create a recipe that I can call my own. However, I also want my brew to be drinkable. That being said, here are my initial thoughts, and please, please, let me know what needs to be revised.

Estimated OG: 1.075
Estimated FG: 1.019
Estimated ABV: 7.34%
Estimated IBU: 84.27
Estimated SRM: 24.7
Batch Size: 5 gallons
Boil Time: 75 minutes

Days in Primary: 7 days
Days in Secondary: 16 days
Approximately 45-60 days before first serving

1.00 tsp Gypsum
8.50 lbs Amber Liquid Extract
2.00 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter
0.50 lbs Cara-Pils
0.50 lbs Crystal Malt 60L
0.25 lbs Roasted Barley
0.25 lbs Chocolate Malt

75 minutes - Zeus - one ounce
40 minutes - Warrior - one ounce
25 minutes - Whirlfloc tablet
15 minutes - Williamette - one ounce

Dry Hopping: 7 days - Crystal - one ounce

Safale US-05 Dry Ale Yeast

Add 4.5 oz (3/4 cup) Dextrose for priming.


Once again, this is just something I though up, so please, let me know what needs to be revised (and I'm sure there is a lot).

This is a partial mash? You don't say, but Maris Otter needs to be mashed - I mean you can steep it, but that's really not what it's made for. If this is an extract + steeping recipe, track down some Maris Otter extract (yes, it exists). Also, if you're not mashing, you don't need gypsum.

I think your fermentation schedule is off, but it looks like you might have just left the defaults on in your software. I'd recommend something more like primary for 21 days, then secondary and dryhop for 7 days.

I think you can back off on the crystal malts. The amber extract probably has some carapils in it already. It depends on the manufacturer, but it's pretty common. You can look up the brand you like on line, some maltsters publish the content of their extracts. So I'd say cut the carapils to 1/4lb or eliminate it altogether.

Just my $0.02.

I've used Maris Otter for steeping on three IPAs, and it seems to have worked fairly well. To be honest, I don't think I'm doing a proper partial mash, as I'm not sure what defines a partial mash. For my brews, I usually steep grain for 45 minutes, heat up the wort, stir in the liquid malt extract, and boil. I've used Gypsum in all of my IPAs so I can't really say whether it's a necessary step or not, I just put it out of habit. The reason I put Carapils in the recipe was because from what I understand, it helps in head retention. I think you're right on the schedule, I used a similar schedule with my IPA, but I should probably revise it according to this batch.

As you know, with 84 IBUs that beer will be BITTER. I don't see too many hoppy/dryhopped and very bitter stouts, so I'm not sure what to think.

Out of curiousity, why the gypsum? If you don't know your water chemistry, you'd be much better off leaving it out. You've got a very highly bitter beer, with roast, and the last thing you need is more sulfate. Unless your water is highly lacking in calcium and sulfate.

The Gyspsum was included because, to be honest, I'm a creature of habit. If it should be left out, it will be done. I know the recipe doesn't look orthodox, and that's because, to be frank, it isn't. Im really new at this, and I knew the recipe wouldn't be perfect, scratch that, I knew the recipe wouldn't be adequate. I wanted to put this out there so I could receive criticism and make revisions on that. So far, it seems like I should reduce the Carapils to 0.25 lbs, remove the Gypsum, and add more fermentable sugar. What else?

The other thing that is nitpicking but important for others who may be following along- an ounce of gypsum is unGodly amount. If it's used at all (and it shouldn't be a routine thing), about a teaspoon (5 grams) is the max.

I'm not a fan of amber LME, because you don't really know what's in it. But if you've used it and liked it, that's fine.

I like to get the fermentables from light or extra light extract, and then use the specialty grains for color and flavor.

I'd reduce the bittering hops by a lot, getting rid of either the zeus or warrior and still possibly reducing them (targeting approximately 45-50 IBUs), change the boil time to no more than 60 minutes, change the amber extract to pale, keep the crystal, increase the chocolate malt and roasted barley and skip the dryhopping.

I'd do this:

10 pounds LME

.50 pound roasted barley (up to .75 pound if you like more roast)
.50 pound crystal 40L (instead of carapils)
.50 pound crystal 80L
.5 pound chocolate malt

Oh wow, thanks for pointing that out. That was actually just a typo, I meant to one teaspoon. Anyways, although it may seem odd, I kind of wanted to brew something that was actually more of an IPA/Stout hybrid, similar in concept to Dogfish Head Bitches Brew, which is a combination of Tej and Imperial Stout. I'm really not sure how to go about doing it though. I know I'd like it to be more of an IPA with Stout accents, not vice versa. I thought Zeus may be a candidate for the brew due to the woody nature for the stout side, and the citric qualities for the IPA portion. I haven't used Zeus directly, but I've used Columbus, which I've heard is very similar. In retrospect, Warrior will be removed from the recipe, as I don't want it to be to bitter. I guess I'm still trying to figure out exactly how an IPA/Stout hybrid will be. I know it may sound odd, I just want to see if I can get it to work.

Lastly, thanks to everybody who has helped so far. I'm pretty new at brewing, so I really appreciate the help.

I don't mean this to be overly critical, but you say you're new and there are things in your posts that lead me to believe your recipe is more of a "word salad" than a real recipe. Let me suggest a more simple and straightforward approach:

If you want a cross between IPA and stout, start with an IPA recipe you know you like (or a clone recipe of an IPA you like) and add 1/2lb roasted barley. Roasted barley is the signature ingredient of stout. It will make your beer black and lend a toasty-grainy flavor.

With this approach you're only adding/changing one ingredient, making it easier to keep track of how it changes your flavor. You will still get a unique beer. And you're more likely to be pleased with the result.

Alright. And yeah, you were pretty much right with the word salad guess. It's just that I recently got a new brewing program, and I've spent the past few days experimenting with it. For the IPA suggestion what about something more like this?

Estimated OG: 1.076
Estimated FG: 1.019
Estimated ABV: 7.47%
Estimated IBU: 64.06
Estimated SRM: 22.6
Batch Size: 5 gallons
Boil Time: 60 minutes

Days in Primary: 7 days
Days in Secondary: 16 days
Approximately 40 days before first serving

1.00 tsp Gypsum
8.00 lbs Amber Liquid Extract
2.00 lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs Cara-Pils
0.50 lbs Crystal Malt 10L
0.25 lbs Flaked Barley
0.50??? lbs Roasted Barley

60 minutes - Simcoe - one ounce
30 minutes - Centennial - one ounce
30 minutes - Whirlfloc tablet
15 minutes - Cascade - one ounce
15 minutes after boil - Cascade - one ounce

Safale US-05 Dry Ale Yeast
Add 4.5 oz (3/4 cup) Dextrose for priming.

That's the recipe I've used for my IPA with 0.50 lbs roasted barley added. I'm not quite sure whether it should be a half or quarter of a pound of roasted barley, but I put down half, as I'm not sure whether a quarter will give it enough distinction from my standard IPA.

Additionally, I was playing around with my brewing program, and I noticed a way to compare it to the BJCP. That being said, I came up with a recipe that classifies in everything except for alcohol percentage, (7.7%), with an Imperial Stout. Now I know numbers alone don't make a good beer, but I figure instead of throwing random ingredients out there, at least I have some base to work from with this recipe. I'm also trying to make an Imperial Stout, and this is what I've come up based on the program numbers. As always, I know it needs a lot of improvement, but I hope that it isn't as completely off base like my original recipe idea.

Estimated OG: 1.079
Estimated FG: 1.020
Estimated ABV: 7.7%
Estimated IBU: 73
Estimated SRM: 33
Batch Size: 5 gallons
Boil Time: 60 minutes

Days in Primary: 7 days
Days in Secondary: 14 days
Approximately 60 days before first serving

8.00 lbs Dark Liquid Extract
2.00 lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs Cara-Pils
0.50 lbs Crystal Malt 40L
0.25 lbs Crystal Malt 80L
0.25 lbs Crystal Malt 10L
0.25 lbs Flaked Barley
0.25 lbs Roasted Barley

60 minutes - Zeus - one ounce
25 minutes - Centennial - one ounce
25 minutes - Whirlfloc tablet
15 minutes - Cascade - one ounce
15 minutes - Willamette - one ounce

Safale US-05 Dry Ale Yeast
Add 4.5 oz (3/4 cup) Dextrose for priming.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm just throwing things out there. The truth is, I also enjoy cooking, and tend to experiment on meals somewhat spur of the moment, making some things that work well, and others that don't. With brewing however, there's a much higher risk involved. If you mess up, while you can learn from your mistakes, you will have wasted a lot of time that can be, for brewers like me with only one primary and secondary carboy, very valuable. That's why I've been asking so many questions that may seem really stupid to you guys who know better.

You're still at 1 oz gypsum in the first recipe... what led you to the habit of always adding gypsum?

Also, rather than comment on your recipes, if you haven't checked it out I'd just suggest the books Brewing Classic Styles, and Designing Great Beers. Good starting points mainly for brewing to style, but in that it they are also great guides for recipe formulation.

Sorry, once again, I made an error. I meant a teaspoon of Gypsum. As for adding Gypsum to the recipe in general, (1 tsp), it is actually in the recipe I got from a local homebrew shop for the IPA. I've brewed it three times, and it has come out really well every time so far.

How about making it a half-batch or 1 gallon recipe if you haven't ever tried it?

That way, if it does happen to taste like a$$, you won't have wasted as much supplies, nor have as much a$$-tastic beer.

I'm all for making your own recipe. I just threw one together and brewed it, and it turned out pretty good, IMO. Now I can tweak it to see if I can make it taste better.

I think I'll probablly do that, as in make a half or fifth of a batch. Regardless, can anyone tell me what needs to be revised in the Imperial Soutish recipe? Im not sure if that's to much maltodextrine, and I know I'll probably need to leave them in the bottles for longer. Also, I was thinking dryhopping may work, to give it the smallest bit of a citric aroma. Whatever the criticism is, I'd appreciate it soon, as my next trip to the brew shop is coming up.

Worth mentioning that water in San Francisco (where I brew) at least is extraordinarily soft. I don't know if Oakland is the same (since SF gets its water from Hetch Hetchy), but it's pretty remarkable. There's almost nothing in it. All the homebrew stores I shop at (both in SF and Berkeley) recommend about a tsp of gypsum per 5 gal batch to improve the bitterness of any IPA, which could be where that advice originated.

I recently moved to SF from Delaware, and noticed a pretty pronounced change in my beer, which I'm attributing to the water chemistry. The good news is, since there isn't much in there, I can just add salts to get where I want to be in terms of pH and sulfate / chloride balance.

My preliminary water analysis is:
Ca: 12 ppm
Mg: 5 ppm
Alk as CaCO3: 50 ppm
Na: 14 ppm
Chloride: 10 ppm
Sulfate: 17 ppm
Water pH: 8.7

As for the OP, have you tried any of the black IPAs? At Beer Revolution in oakland (awesome place to research beer styles) last month, I had some of Drake's IBA as well as Sierra Nevada's Grand Cru, both of which might fit into that category. Not precisely an IPA/Stout cross, but pretty close.

Also, if you're steeping the Marris Otter at 150ish degrees, you're pretty much mashing it. The only real distinction is that partial mashes tend to be in a lot less water (about a quart to a quart and a half per pound of grain) which gets diluted later, instead of the full 5 gallons) in order to make sure the enzymes get to the grain.

Finally, if it were up to me, I'd drop the Zeus and push the Centennial up to 60 minutes as the bittering. Something like Centennial for 60 min, Willamette 20 min, Willamette 5 min, Cascade Dry hop (7 days). That should *probably* be an interesting hybrid flavor, as Willamette tastes and smells (to me) like a more traditional english stout/bitter hop (it's related to fuggles) whereas cascade and centennial are more american style.

There's something awesome about a beer with "Zeus" and "Warrior" hops in it.

Not sure that is the best for flavor, but that's pretty damn manly.

Yup, Oakland gets Hetch Hetchy water as well, which is why I'm accustom to using gypsum. I think I've got a fairly final recipe down.

1 tsp Gypsum
8.00 lbs Dark Malt Extract (Dry)
2.00 lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs Cara-Pils
0.50 lbs Crystal Malt 40L
0.25 lbs Crystal Malt 80L
0.25 lbs Flaked Barley
0.25 lbs Roasted Barley
0.25 lbs Maltodextrine

60 minutes - Columbus - one ounce
45 minutes - Willamette - one ounce
30 minutes - Whirlfloc tablet
15 minutes - Willamette - one ounce
7 days - Cascade - one ounce

16g Safale US-05 Dry Ale Yeast
Add 4.5 oz (3/4 cup) Dextrose for priming.

One thing I'm still trying to determine though, is if it would be more appropriate to add the Cascade hops at five minutes for aroma, or leave them where they are for dry hopping. I want to get some citrusy aroma from the Cascade, but being as this will primarily have Stout like characteristics, I don't want fruitiness that will clash to much with the roasty flavor. Any advice?

pfooti said:

All the homebrew stores I shop at (both in SF and Berkeley) recommend about a tsp of gypsum per 5 gal batch to improve the bitterness of any IPA, which could be where that advice originated.

Click to expand...

Ahhh, I see.

NewerBrewer28 said:

Yup, Oakland gets Hetch Hetchy water as well, which is why I'm accustom to using gypsum. I think I've got a fairly final recipe down.

1 tsp Gypsum
8.00 lbs Dark Malt Extract (Dry)
2.00 lbs Maris Otter
0.50 lbs Cara-Pils
0.50 lbs Crystal Malt 40L
0.25 lbs Crystal Malt 80L
0.25 lbs Flaked Barley
0.25 lbs Roasted Barley
0.25 lbs Maltodextrine

60 minutes - Columbus - one ounce
45 minutes - Willamette - one ounce
30 minutes - Whirlfloc tablet
15 minutes - Willamette - one ounce
7 days - Cascade - one ounce

16g Safale US-05 Dry Ale Yeast
Add 4.5 oz (3/4 cup) Dextrose for priming.

One thing I'm still trying to determine though, is if it would be more appropriate to add the Cascade hops at five minutes for aroma, or leave them where they are for dry hopping. I want to get some citrusy aroma from the Cascade, but being as this will primarily have Stout like characteristics, I don't want fruitiness that will clash to much with the roasty flavor. Any advice?

Click to expand...

How about adding the 1 oz Cascade at 5 min, but also dry hop with 1 oz Centennial? Similar flavor to Cascade but probably more kick per oz dry hopping.

Also, I would seriously consider dropping the dark DME and go with a pale or light DME; you might then consider adding a bit more darker specialty grain, maybe change the crystal 80L to crystal 120L and bump it up to 1/2 lb. The reason I say dump the dark DME is that it was made with additions of specialty grain, but you don't know what is in there... since you're going to need to do a partial mash anyway YOU can select all the specialty grains, instead of just wondering what was in there.

NewerBrewer28 said:

*snip*
60 minutes - Columbus - one ounce
45 minutes - Willamette - one ounce
30 minutes - Whirlfloc tablet
15 minutes - Willamette - one ounce
7 days - Cascade - one ounce
*snip*
One thing I'm still trying to determine though, is if it would be more appropriate to add the Cascade hops at five minutes for aroma, or leave them where they are for dry hopping. I want to get some citrusy aroma from the Cascade, but being as this will primarily have Stout like characteristics, I don't want fruitiness that will clash to much with the roasty flavor. Any advice?

Click to expand...

Just wanted to chime in real quick here; something I learned from paying attention to Yooper's posts in particular, is that your 45m Willamette addition is basically wasted hops. They're low enough AA to not lend much bitterness, and being that far back in the boil you won't get any noticeable hop flavor from them. IMHO, you'd be better off with the Willy at 20 and 10 minutes. It's a tasty hop, sort of spicy and (in my experience, though I haven't seen it described as such) a tiny bit minty/menthol-y. It'll be a great compliment to the roast, but using it at 45m won't do you much good - unless you're trying to hit a very specific IBU figure and need that particular AA hop at that particular time to get it.

Re: Late C-hop addition; I'd dry hop it and let the Willamette do the flavoring. Just one man's opinion.

Happy brewing!

I was thinking of moving the Willamette up, but doing so will put my IBUs into the 30s, and the balance below 1.00. However, I was contemplating putting 0.5 oz Willamette at 45 minutes, and 0.5 oz Willamette at 5 minutes. Doing so will put the IBU at approx 44, and the balance at 1.04. Otherwise, if I do the brew as it stands now, the IBUs will only be a tad bit higher, and the balance will be at 1.14.