Whirlpool chillers -- your thoughts?

I was able to score 50’ of new 5/8” copper tubing cheap, and I want to build a whirlpool chiller (a la Jamil Zainasheff) for chilling 10 gal batches. My old 25’ x 3/8” immersion chiller just isn’t up for the task.

If you aren’t familiar with the whirlpool chiller, it is essentially a wort recirculation system that bulk chills the wort at faster cooling rates, preserving hop flavour and aroma, and reducing DMS production (plus some other advantages). The technique is to use a pump to recirculate the wort in the kettle and use either an immersion chiller (Jamil’s shown below) or a counter flow chiller for cooling.



So, I have enough copper to build two chillers: a whirlpool chiller (IC or CFC), plus an immersion chiller for smaller batches (3 to 5 gals). Do you guys think I should build:

1. a 50’ x 5/8 in immersion whirlpool chiller, and keep the 3/8” IC for smaller batches and for a pre-chiller?

or:

2. a 25’ all-copper counter-flow chiller, plus a smaller immersion chiller made from the remaining 5/8” copper?

I am leaning towards the latter choice, but I haven’t used a CFC before. What would be nice about an all-copper CFC is that I could submerge it in a bucket of ice water and not have to bother with a pre-chiller. Plus the leftover 5/8” copper would make a great IC for smaller batches, or could even double as a HERMS coil (as an aside: does anyone use a HERMS with cooler-based MLTs???).

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated!

I would also like to have a recirculation system but with a plate chiller (which I already own).

I used to have an immersion chiller and a pre-chiller and I can tell you that a pre-chiiler is better than not having one at all. However, that pales in comparison to using a cheap sump ($30) and pumping ice water directly into your IC.

I do this with my plate chiller now and it is like night and day. This effect would be analagous to a CFC. Jamil uses a March pump to pump the icewater http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php which is overkill when a sump works fine. It's just water, after all.

As I said, my next step would be to use a wort pump to recirculate. Jamil addresses this in his Q&A

Q: Can't I do this same thing using my counter-flow/plate chiller?

A: Yes, you can. Several people have reported good results using their counter-flow devices. Just run the output from the device back into the kettle. You'll probably get less of a whirlpool effect, but the chilling should be just as good, no DMS and great hop character.

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I'd re-examine the pre-chiller part of the equation.

Yeah, I was thinking about this route. I just don't want to drop the cash for TWO pumps. I wonder how well the immersed CFC or plate chiller would work? Probably better than a pre-chiller, but not as well as pumping ice water with a separate pump.

If you're already pumping icewater as a necessity, you will likely be able to run your hot wort through the plate/CFC at full throttle. I don't suppose it would take more than 10 minutes to pump 10 gallons through so DMS shouldn't be much of an issue. I just dislike having hot wort sitting around for anymore time than that which a recirculation would take care of.

I was recirculating wort back into the kettle to drop the overall temp below 140 but that was only because my tap wasn't enough to take it down to pitching temp in one pass. An observed side effect is having cold break back in the kettle similar to an IC. If you have some filtration method, this can be good or bad. Bad if it can't handle the particle load, good if it can.

I wouldn't bother making an all copper CFC. There is no point to wasting the copper (free or not) on the outer jacket when it could be put to better use elsewhere.

Bobby_M said:

An observed side effect is having cold break back in the kettle similar to an IC. If you have some filtration method, this can be good or bad. Bad if it can't handle the particle load, good if it can.

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That's a good point to consider -- an IC would definitely be better in this respect. I am certain that 1/2 ID tubing could handle the cold break. Do you think the more narrow diameter of the CFC would be prone to clogging? I filter with leaf hops, and will be using a hop strainer for pellets, so I would guess that hop material won't be getting pumped through.

bradsul said:

I wouldn't bother making an all copper CFC. There is no point to wasting the copper (free or not) on the outer jacket when it could be put to better use elsewhere.

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Yeah, it sounds a bit frivolous, but the copper was a steal (50 cents a foot) and sweat-on fittings are dirt cheap. The cost of doing a Cheyco CFC with a garden hose and rigid fittings is almost the same as this all-copper unit with cheap sweat-on fittings. I can't return the copper, and I can't think of a use for it. I suppose I could sell it, then go get a garden hose and new fittings, but that is going to be a big hassle to make a few bucks.

Plus, I still think immersing the copper CFC in a cooler with ice water would really help speed-up cooling a 10 gal batch in the summer when my tap water warms up. But I am getting the impression that others don't think so??????

Considering what copper seems to sell for in the US you could probably make a nice profit and the buyer would still save some money.

I did sweated fittings for my CFC, it's really cheap that way. $20 for a RV water hose and a couple barbed fittings and you're done!

I really like this idea, and I like olllllo's suggestion of using a sump pump even more. This isn't an issue for me now that it's getting colder, but in the dog days of summer it was taking me upwards of 30 minutes sometimes to get down to pitching temps.

Rather than using a pump at all, wouldn't a whirlpool within the IC help also? I'm thinking ghetto-rig some PVC into a paddle and power it with a drill to keep the wort constantly moving, therefore increasing the amount of wort that is in contact with the IC coils.

I got the idea from Bobby_M's persuasive posts.

ohiobrewtus said:

...I'm thinking ghetto-rig some PVC into a paddle and power it with a drill to keep the wort constantly moving, therefore increasing the amount of wort that is in contact with the IC coils.

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PVC will leach chemicals into the beer at those temps (and deform). I'd be worried about HSA issues while it was still really hot as well.

bradsul said:

PVC will leach chemicals into the beer at those temps (and deform). I'd be worried about HSA issues while it was still really hot as well.

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Point taken. I guess I'm inquiring as to the validity of the idea, assuming that something could be constructed of food grade material that could withstand the temperatures.

ohiobrewtus said:

Point taken. I guess I'm inquiring as to the validity of the idea, assuming that something could be constructed of food grade material that could withstand the temperatures.

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I think the concept is good but I think a drill would be way too fast. You don't want to froth the hot wort due to all the oxygen absorption. Either a slow stirrer of some sort (ie. manual stirring ) or recirculating the wort itself is probably still the best bet.

Now that I finally finished my kegerator I've been holding back urges to start a new project. This may have kick started me into saving for a pump and building a recirculating whirlpool chiller.

bradsul said:

Either a slow stirrer of some sort (ie. manual stirring ) or recirculating the wort itself is probably still the best bet.

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This is what I do now, it's just a PITA.

ohiobrewtus said:

This is what I do now, it's just a PITA.

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Same here, except I just get a whirlpool going and then let it coast to a stop since I'm just draining through a CFC.

You guys should have a look at Jamil's plans for his whirlpool IC. It is exactly what you are suggesting. (It is linked in my original post above.)

The system consists of a big immersion chiller that has ice water circulated through it by a pump. The wort is recirculated using a second pump to create a gentle whirlpool that puts the maximum amount of wort in contact with the chiller coil so that the temp drops really fast in the kettle.

That was my option 1. I was considering an alternative, though, using an all-copper CFC (option 2). The advantage would be that you could drop this puppy in a cooler of ice water and eliminate the the need for two pumps. It wouldn't be quite as efficient, but I bet it would still cool faster than just pumping through a standard CFC into the fermenter and it would have all the benefits of Jamil's whirlpool IC. Aside from the cost of an all-copper CFC (which is a non-issue for me now), wouldn't this work? I think I might try it unless people think this is a bad idea.

You're correct. I think it will work as you expect.

The Chillzilla is all copper IIRC, so there is an example of it.

I think you'd still need some way to agitate the ice water in the cooler to avoid the water heating up, but that sounds good.

I like the idea of Jamil's setup but I think for mine I'd skip the IC part. My tap water is quite cold all year. I have my cooling water at a trickle through my 25' CFC now and it cools 25L to 64F going directly into the fermenter in about 17-19 minutes.

If I could run the wort with a pump and run the tap water wide open I think I could cool 25L really quickly.

I bought a paint mixer at the home depot and hooked it to my drill and it works great

just an idea

Nicksteck

I have 2 march pumps in my rig....after using them for the first time I realized the frivolity of having one (non sanitized) pump for the hlt water, sparge, mash recirc, etc. and one (sanitized) pump for Jamil's whirlpool chiller. I have the 1/2" 50' B3 superchiller. I have a 21" ss spoon I sanitize and simply whirlpool in the center of my IC and around the outsides. I got the temp down in like 10 mins, no problem. I'm wondering if the whirlpool jet, etc. is just overkill, unless you NEED everything automated and you're too lazy to stir some wort. I'd rather use the pump to recirc icewater. After I get the temp down, I remove the IC and the Lil' Sparky strainer apparatus and get a strong whirlpool going. 10-20 mins later, I drain my wort and it is as clear as if I had filtered it professionally. Since I've started doing this, along with crash cooling after fermentation, my beers are so clear I can't believe it.

Well, I *am* lazy!

So you think the whirlpool jet is overkill? Even for 10 gal batches? Man, Jamil is sure sold on this thing, as are all the groupies on the B3 board. Damn -- you are spoiling my fun here. I haven't been brewing, so I thought I could at least be building!

BTW, the pump recirc system doesn't have to be sanitary, just clean. You fire it up 10 or 15 mins prior to flame out and slowly recirc to santize the system with boiling wort. Like I said, I am lazy and if I had to sanitize this thing every time I ran it, I probably wouldn't bother just for that alone!

One advantage to Jamil's whirlpool chiller is that you can have a cover over the pot while chilling. With a little creativity one could even seal the pot and add a HEPA for make up air as the wort cools and is drained. This could give you a completely closed system.

What I take away from lengthy chiller threads such as this one is that there's probably no ideal chilling method. There are several that work and the better ones are judged individually based on factors like tap temperature, wort volume, whether or not you have a kettle drain bulkhead, whether or not you have a hot wort capable pump, etc.

FlyGuy said:

BTW, the pump recirc system doesn't have to be sanitary, just clean. You fire it up 10 or 15 mins prior to flame out and slowly recirc to santize the system with boiling wort. Like I said, I am lazy and if I had to sanitize this thing every time I ran it, I probably wouldn't bother just for that alone!

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This is a very appealing feature that I hadn't considered.

Yeah, exactly. If you watch my all grain video, you see me circulating boiling water through the CFC prior to getting the brew started. It was only after running the wort through that I realized I could have easily just sanitized it with the wort. That's what I currently do.

I guess recircing boiling wort would be an easier way to sanitize the pumps/lines. I don't wanna rain on anyone's parade, it's just that I had been totally excited about this thing ever since I read about it on MrMalty.com, and when it came time for me to actually use it, I didn't see much of a point. I just stirred the wort with my sanitized spoon and achieved the same effect; no setup/cleaning/electricity involved. I guess I'm just making a point out of this so that people out there who think they NEED a pump to get great results can see that stirring really works great. Like BobbyM said, it all depends on what gear you have available. Will I go ahead and rig up a whirlpool jet to my IC? Sure.....but mainly just because I have 2 pumps and I CAN....but I don't expect my wort to really cool much faster. I guess it kinda adds to the cool "mousetrap" factor of having a brew-rig

bradsul said:

Considering what copper seems to sell for in the US you could probably make a nice profit and the buyer would still save some money.

I did sweated fittings for my CFC, it's really cheap that way. $20 for a RV water hose and a couple barbed fittings and you're done!

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So are you whirlpooling hot wort and then using the counterflow chiller?

WBC said:

So are you whirlpooling hot wort and then using the counterflow chiller?

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Yup! Wouldn't really work the other way around.

Okay, so I actually tried a modified version of the whirlpool chiller! I set my pump up to recirc boiling wort for about 15 mins before flameout. Then I kicked on the IC flow (50' @ 1/2") and let her go. I didn't have the whirlpool "outlet" to make a vortex, I just had my pump output hose go right into the center of the IC. I swear, I thought my thermometer was broken! It cooled so fast, I couldn't believe I was at 80F in 10 mins! I actually think I overdid it, because my yeast wasn't taking off after 24 hours ( I repitched w/dry ). After cooling, I carefully pulled everything from the keggle and did a strong manual whirlpool. There was a fair amount of break at the bottom. This is a very effective method, no matter what kind of chiller you subscribe to

The basic concept is about getting the hot wort moving so that it warm wort gets to the chilling coil. You can do that with pump whirlpooling, manual stirring, jiggling the chiller, whichever.

I like the whirlpool chiller idea. Being able to leave the hot and cold break behind is huge. Also it stops DMS production quickly which results in cleaner tasting brew. The system is relatively cheap and utilizes the equipment (kettle) you already have on hand. The sump pump is a great way to go. I use one with the second zone on my plate chiller set up. It is really easy to use, just drop it in the icebath and turn it on! The great thing about the WC is the whirlpool. I use a whirlpool post chilling and love the results. I really advice adding a whirlpool into your set-up if you are able.