Tell me about your HERMS-- I've got a ton of questions!

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Stevorino

Stevorino

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As many of you know, I'm building a BrewStand for Xmas. Right now I'm looking into pricing how much more it'd cost to put a HERMS on it.

Here are my questions:

1. How do you like it?
2. If you chose automate the temperature control-- how did you go about doing it?
3. Where did you get your supplies from? Recommendations?

Thanks guys!
 
Look at mine, look at my posted threads on my 10 Gallon Rubbermaid HERMS... a lot of info, feel free to ask q's
 
The Pol said:
Look at mine, look at my posted threads on my 10 Gallon Rubbermaid HERMS... a lot of info, feel free to ask q's
Click to expand...

It looks like you are using that software they are beta testing-- how'd you get your hands on that? Electric Heating element in HLT?
 
I am not using any software that anyone is testing... I do have a heating element in the HLT. It is 120V 1500W

I love my HERMS... it is insulated, convenient, efficient, it holds temps perfectly as you'd assume and it allows me to mash out in a cooler without an infusion of water.

TO run any single tier system you will need at least ONE pump, so that may not be an extra cost to you, but here are some of the components, and what they cost me.

March 809 Pump: $130
Quick Disconnects: $70
Johnson Controls A419: $80
Thermowell: $5
Through wall digital thermometers (2): $30
Hoses: $20
HERMS coil 25'x1/2" copper tubing: $60
HLT water stirrer: $90
Water Heater Element: $8
Misc. fittings: $30

DSCN0916.jpg
 
My main question right now is the controllers. I've read a lot of different ways to do this on 'teh interweb'.

Yours looks straight forward, I'm assuming that the HLT shuts the electrical heating unit on or off if it gets outside of the temperature differential on your controller mounted to the side.

But I think I'm going to end up using a mounted Banjo Burner (I've got 3 in my current setup). A lot of the gas examples I've seen have had two different temperature controllers-- what for?

I saw one example with one controller for a 'pilot light' and one for the actual burner's gas.

So overall, I understand the fundamentals of a HERMS-- it recirculates the mashing wort through a coil in the HLT and the brewer controls the temperature either manually or automatically by changing the temperature of the HLT water. I guess my question is how do I go about doing that for banjo burners under every keggle?
 
Stevorino said:
My main question right now is the controllers. I've read a lot of different ways to do this on 'teh interweb'.

Yours looks straight forward, I'm assuming that the HLT shuts the electrical heating unit on or off if it gets outside of the temperature differential on your controller mounted to the side.

But I think I'm going to end up using a mounted Banjo Burner (I've got 3 in my current setup). A lot of the gas examples I've seen have had two different temperature controllers-- what for?

I saw one example with one controller for a 'pilot light' and one for the actual burner's gas.

So overall, I understand the fundamentals of a HERMS-- it recirculates the mashing wort through a coil in the HLT and the brewer controls the temperature either manually or automatically by changing the temperature of the HLT water. I guess my question is how do I go about doing that for banjo burners under every keggle?
Click to expand...

You don't have to do it that way. The other way is to just heat the HLT and then set it for 180F or so and then hook the MLT up to a recirculation. The pump being controlled by another PID or LOVE control. In this example the HLT heat does not matter, but I would not maintain it higher than 180F because you do not want to start denaturing enzymes. The HLT Temp could be done manually if your strapped for cash. As for finding what you need, ebay is a good start for both pumps and controls. Before you go looking though decide exactly what you want out of your system. I will give you a better idea of what you need. S.
 
slnies said:
You don't have to do it that way. The other way is to just heat the HLT and then set it for 180F or so and then hook the MLT up to a recirculation. The pump being controlled by another PID or LOVE control. In this example the HLT heat does not matter, but I would not maintain it higher than 180F because you do not want to start denaturing enzymes. The HLT Temp could be done manually if your strapped for cash. As for finding what you need, ebay is a good start for both pumps and controls. Before you go looking though decide exactly what you want out of your system. I will give you a better idea of what you need. S.
Click to expand...

How would I do it if I wanted to control the burners instead of the flow?
 
You would need to have either a standing pilot (easy) or an ignition system (hard) to light the burner, as well as a gas solenoid control valve that would be wired to a temperature controller.

Why not sell your burners and buy some cheap electic heating elements? Less $$$, easy to control, and no gas use...

You are looking at nearly $200/burner to control them, with a valves, controllers and pilot.
 
Yeah, I am with the Pol on the electric. I did have the convince of installing 2x 30A/220 circuits in my garage, but the real push was when I found a spreadsheet on the 'net that calculates the cost.

Propane gave me about 3-4 brews, boil only. HLT/Mash on the stove. At $20/fill, that is #2 in cost (just behind liquid yeast, if I didn't harvest) for a batch. Electric was about $1, including HLT. Not to mention I can brew in the garage, year round.
 
The Pol said:
You would need to have either a standing pilot (easy) or an ignition system (hard) to light the burner, as well as a gas solenoid control valve that would be wired to a temperature controller.

Why not sell your burners and buy some cheap electic heating elements? Less $$$, easy to control, and no gas use...

You are looking at nearly $200/burner to control them, with a valves, controllers and pilot.
Click to expand...

How long does it take you to heat up your HLT/MLT to Strike Temp w/ electric? How much volume is that?
 
lrr81765 said:
Yeah, I am with the Pol on the electric. I did have the convince of installing 2x 30A/220 circuits in my garage, but the real push was when I found a spreadsheet on the 'net that calculates the cost.

Propane gave me about 3-4 brews, boil only. HLT/Mash on the stove. At $20/fill, that is #2 in cost (just behind liquid yeast, if I didn't harvest) for a batch. Electric was about $1, including HLT. Not to mention I can brew in the garage, year round.
Click to expand...

Don't you still have to heat the kettle w/ Gas? Scorching?

I'm tempted to get inside..but that wort will smell up the house, haha.
 
I don't have rights to post pictures yet (guess I need to get a membership). Anyways, follow this link to my photobucket album (link).

I have an external HERMS chamber (the small 1 gallon blue cooler). That is what houses my coil and I use a bucket heater to heat it. I have a thermocouple on the exit of the coil to monitor the temps. I use a PID to monitor temps and turn the bucket heater on/off. I also have an aquarium pump that "bubbles" the water in the HERMS chamber so I don't get stratification. It's yet another twist on a HERMS system.

My next upgrade is to get electric (240v) into the garage and convert my HLT to an eHLT. I may still boil w/ propane.
 
Stevorino said:
Don't you still have to heat the kettle w/ Gas? Scorching?
Click to expand...

I haven't taken it to the kettle..yet. I have a 5500w Ultra High Density element to bring it to a boil, then it will duty cycle 50 % or so to keep it rolling. Hopefully the test is this weekend.

Stevorino said:
I'm tempted to get inside..but that wort will smell up the house, haha.
Click to expand...
Yummm. The Newest Glade Plugin - Wort scented :mug:

I'm in the garage/man den, so that isn't a big problem. I'd probably be more concerned with the steam inside.
 
lrr81765 said:
I haven't taken it to the kettle..yet. I have a 5500w Ultra High Density element to bring it to a boil, then it will duty cycle 50 % or so to keep it rolling. Hopefully the test is this weekend.


Yummm. The Newest Glade Plugin - Wort scented :mug:

I'm in the garage/man den, so that isn't a big problem. I'd probably be more concerned with the steam inside.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm...And how much does the 550w element cost?
 
You have a little more technology challenge. Just about anyone can go to walmart, pick up a turkey fryer and a bucket and make some beer.

It might not be good for an apartment dweller.

Safety. You need to be smart about this. Water + electricity will kill you. During my testing, I had SWMBO on the breaker (yeah, she liked this idea a bunch).

Initial cost, but compared to your 2 burners, probably a hella lot less. If you moved from propane to NG, you'd likely have a plumber involved. Which would be about the same cost as whatever electrical you'd need.

My test of my HLT brought 9 gal from 50 to 160 in about 35 min. About the same time it takes me to get the grain together and crush it.

Others my pipe in ( I hope)
 
I still use gas to boil... but I am thinking about converting it to electric for convenience. You can use electric in a cooler or a keggle... dont matter. Electric is just so cheap (components) and easy to switch on/off for temp control.
 
Okay-- so why doesn't B3 put it on their sculptures?

Does the electric coil caramelize the wort/grains?

-- I guess I'm trying to figure out why this isn't done more often --
 
I'm assuming you essentially have to install a circuit breaker on the brewstand....which, if that gets wet, I can see that being a disaster. Probably need GFCI outlets if using them...

I'm going to start a new thread on Electric to see if I can get some more timely feedback.
 
Here's what I did. I got a Hot tub kit from HD or Lowes for ~$70. That has a 50A GFCI. That is my insurance and cutoff.

Out of there, I go into a 13x13 junction box that houses my electronics.

SSR's for the juice, custom Arduino software for the PID's. A couple of switches and lamps, and away I go.

I'll get it all together and put some pics up this weekend.

As for B3, I don't have a clue. I'd bet liability is a good reason, and not everyone has a 30a 220 circuit available - frankly, I think few do.

I know that Pol uses 120, but I was just a little to impatient for that.

We'll see if I can cut my brew day down to about 4 hours or so :)
 
lrr81765 said:
As for B3, I don't have a clue. I'd bet liability is a good reason, and not everyone has a 30a 220 circuit available - frankly, I think few do.

I know that Pol uses 120, but I was just a little to impatient for that.

We'll see if I can cut my brew day down to about 4 hours or so :)
Click to expand...

Whoa-- so do i have to wire a new circuit into my house circuit breaker for this puppy?

how fast will a 30a 220 heat up a HLT?
 
It is really easy and super cheap to wire up a 220V outlet near your circuit breaker. If you open up your box, you should have the ability to install a 30A or better breaker and get some more power.
I am wiring one into my garage for my BK when I convert it to electric... still A LOT cheaper than putting controllers and switches on three burners.
 
The Pol said:
It is really easy and super cheap to wire up a 220V outlet near your circuit breaker. If you open up your box, you should have the ability to install a 30A or better breaker and get some more power.
I am wiring one into my garage for my BK when I convert it to electric... still A LOT cheaper than putting controllers and switches on three burners.
Click to expand...

Will a 30A breaker power 3 of these electric heating units?
 
No, 1500W pulls about 12A

For 3500W you would need about 17A or so?

5 Gallons 10 Gallons 15 Gallons 20 Gallons
1650 Watts 45 90 N/R N/R
3500 Watts 20 40 60 80
4500 Watts 17 34 51 68
6000 Watts 12 24 36 48

Breaker Requirement
120V 20amp
220V 20amp
220V 30amp
220V 30amp

It takes some serious juice, you should only need 2 elements. One for the HLT and one for the BK... the MLT should be heated by recirculating through the HLT in the HERMS. Even in this case you will only be running ONE element at a time. HLT to heat strike water and run the HERMS during the mash, and then the BK alone to boil your beer.
 
You can make the system yourself. You will need to do some research find the proper parts at the best price. Love controls or Ranco will control actual temperature of the beer in your process.

The Love or Ranco control will come with a temperature probe. You will place the temperature probe either in the flow line or in the "keggle" depending on your design. (inside a device called a thermowell) The Love or Ranco control will fire your gas (or electric) depending on the setup. If you use gas, you can use a solenoid setup or a gas valve similar to what is inside your water heater. This will require the use of a pilot light.
 
The Pol said:
No, 1500W pulls about 12A

For 3500W you would need about 28A or so?

It takes some serious juice, you should only need 2 elements. One for the HLT and one for the BK... the MLT should be heated by recirculating through the HLT in the HERMS. Even in this case you will only be running ONE element at a time. HLT to heat strike water and run the HERMS during the mash, and then the BK alone to boil your beer.
Click to expand...

In another thread I saw you say you didn't wnat to put it in your BK because you were worried about it carmelizing-- my same fear.
 
I have since heard a lot about caramelizing being a myth...
 
If you use a LOW density element, it will not caramelize... Low Density meaning, low BTU/Sq in. will not caramelize wort.

You have me now putting together a plan to install a couple more CBs in my box in the garage and installing a 3500W element in my BK. Should boil nice and quick, seeing as though the runnings are 160F and I only boil 7.4 gallons...
 
The Pol said:
If you use a LOW density element, it will not caramelize... Low Density meaning, low BTU/Sq in. will not caramelize wort.

You have me now putting together a plan to install a couple more CBs in my box in the garage and installing a 3500W element in my BK. Should boil nice and quick, seeing as though the runnings are 160F and I only boil 7.4 gallons...
Click to expand...

haha, good luck!
 
I am getting a double pole 30A breaker, which will allow me to easily run a 4500W low density element in my BK. I should be able to convert my BK to electric for less than $60. It will be nice to not have gas to mess with anymore. I will keep my HLT with the 1500W element as it does the job in there quite well.
 
The Pol said:
I am getting a double pole 30A breaker, which will allow me to easily run a 4500W low density element in my BK. I should be able to convert my BK to electric for less than $60. It will be nice to not have gas to mess with anymore. I will keep my HLT with the 1500W element as it does the job in there quite well.
Click to expand...

Another +1 for the Pol. But I have a thing for electric for all the same reasons. Not to mention the repeatability. Enough said. S.:rockin:
 
Thanks... The 120V in the HLT is nice... it heats well, it does its job very well, and it is easy to switch with the A419. The 4500W element in the BK will allow me to boil my 7.4 gallons quickly and efficiently. It will also make my brew stand cleaner. I will have a diamond plate shelf that the BK will sit on, and a single cord running to the BK from the receptacle on the wall just below my breaker box.
 
If I may butt in here....I am having a little trouble understanding what is needed to hook up the electric element. I am interested in starting out with converting my BK into electric heat, using I guess a 4500 watt 220 element. My question is, I see about the SSR and controllers and all that but I never really got a good description of whats needed and what to do to hook it all up.

I am putting in a 30amp 220 line in my garage in the next few weeks to do this, but dont know what else I need to run this. Can someone explain to me what i need and how to hook it up? Ive seen the elements at home depot but im assuming I cant just stick straight 220 juice to the element and have heat that wont blow something up right? Please help :mug:
 
I want to go this route when I really get back into AG. If I can figure out how to vent all the steam I want to set up an electric HERMS in my basement. Going to be a bar down there one day... be really cool to brew and be comfortable at the same time... which isn't easy here in the winter.
 

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