Mounted therminator, how to sanitize

I have a therminator and I am currently building a homebrewery. My process now for sanitizing the therminator is to drop the whole thing in a bucket of San Star. After chilling I back flush to clean.

Just curious how people are sanitizing there therminator if it's attached to a rig. Are you pumping boiling water thought it, pumping sanstar? If you pump sanstar how to you remove the left over liquid after sanitizing.

Just want to see a couple of techniques. Pictures would be great too! THANKS!

Just recirculate the boiling wort through it back into the BK for the last 15minutes of the boil with your pump if you have one.. The boiling wort will sanitize it. This is of course withOUT the chilling water turned on
If you don't have a pump, you'll have to disconnect it from the BK end and pour sanitizer through the whole setup from BK hose to Fermenter hose. If there is some left that makes it into the fermenter, star san makes good yeast food. I accidently racked 11G of a Blonde ale onto 2 G of star san solution. The beer was great.

TimWeber said:

If you pump sanstar how to you remove the left over liquid after sanitizing.

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clean water?

Sanitizing with StarSan is a HUGE waste. You have GALLONS of boiling syrup at the ready to pass through it. Like IP said, recirc 15 minutes before flameout.

No different really than dropping an IC into the kettle.

You should do more to clean than just back flush with water. Water will NOT completely remove soils.

There is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing. You need to do both with everything the beer touches post boil.

Here is my procedure for cleaning and sanitizing:

Plate heat exchangers can be cleaned very easily if you use a pump. The first thing is to back flush with water. This will push out all the big chunks.

Next, put about a gallon of warm to hot water in a two gallon bucket with an alkaline cleaner, such as PBW. Stick the hose connected to the inlet of the pump into the bucket of cleaning solution. Connect the output of the pump to the outlet of the heat exchanger. Connect a hose to the inlet of the heat exchanger. Start pumping the cleaner through the HE. Hold the hose from the inlet of the HE slightly above the bucket so you can observe the liquid coming out. You will see a color change in the liquid when the cleaner starts to remove the organic soils from the plate. Do not allow the darker color liquid to mix with the cleaner in the bucket. In other words, let the dark stuff go down the drain. When the color is gone. Stick the hose in the bucket and allow the cleaner to recirculate for a few minutes. You can then rinse the cleaner out with regular tap water.

To finish up you can circulate some acid through the HE. This will leave the plates in an acid condition which will reduce the ability of spoilage organisms to grow.

Before you use the HE again, rinse with water and circulate sanitizer through it. This same procedure can and should be used with a counter flow chiller.

I AM very careful about cleaning and sanitizing heat exchangers. I used to brew for a living so a bad batch would cost some serious coin. Not cleaning HEs completely was a very common mistake made by many brewpubs.

Once a year I would always disassemble the HE to physically observe the channels. They always were clean when I followed the method described above.

Wayne,

I really appreciate your feedback as I plan on brewing professionally in a few years..Currently I am stuck as a design engineer.

Two things: You can not disassemble the Blichmann Therminator. The instructions say, extended contact times with an acid sanitizer will damaged the HEX.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/therminator/therminator.html


I've only used it for a few about 5 batches so far, and haven't noticed any chunks. I do use a boil screen on my Kettle.

I will take your advice on cleaning it with PBW.

I understand that the Therminator cannot be disassembled. I mentioned the disassembly of the large Mueller HEX units I used to use just as an illustration that the cleaning regimen I described is effective enough that it removes all particles and soils.

I do not see anything on the Blichmann site where it mentions anything about sanitizers. It may be some of the blockers I have on my browser are preventing me from seeing it.

I am not aware of any reason Sani-Clean should not be used. I would suggest Sani-Clean in place of Star-San for pumping as it does not produce as much foam.

The acid rinse after cleaning is with a very weak acid solution. Maybe a pH of 5-6. You just want to keep the plates in an acid condition.

wayne, I just started using an HE and I was wondering what type of acid solution you use. Only thing I could think of that would be readily available and somewhat cheap would be vinegar and water.

I pretty much clean my chiller the same way you do after using it. I backflush with water and then I recirculate pbw through it for about 15 minutes. Then I rinse it with hot water. But, does it matter if I can't get all the water out of the chiller? I don't want any mold growing inside it and I definitely don't want any dissolved salts screwing up the SS on the inside after the water evaporates.

I recirculate the wort through the chiller for 15 minutes right after flame out. I don't see why you would need to be boiling.

One other question, why does it say on the PBW container to rinse with water that is just as hot as the water you mixed the PBW with?

I use ACID 5 from Five Star. This is a blend of phosphoric and nitric acid. It is available from quite a few distributors. Your LHBS should be able to order it in for you.

It can give you very bad chemical burns. Use only with gloves and be very careful how you store it.

I see no reason to circulate hot wort through the HEX. This will only give small particles a greater chance to get wedged in the channels. Sani-clean/Star-san will kill anything it comes in contact with. An acid sanitizer is far more effective than hot wort.

For an acid rinse, phosphoric only, diluted, will work just fine. Five Star also make a phosphoric based blend called Acid 1 that is less nasty than Acid 5.

I would suggest you try to remove all water from your HEX after use. Rinse with an acid and blow out the HEX with compressed air, CO2, or even use the outlet of a shop vac to push all the liquid out of the HEX.

I tend to recapture the outlet water of my HEX for cleaning. I then use the warm water for cleaning and rinsing at the end of the brew day.

Acid #5 user here too. Nasty stuff. I have seen it eat concrete undiuted.

Hey Wayne? di yours come as a light blue and change to a a purple?

5 star tells me there is nothing to worry about but, they also couldn't tell me the diluted pH target either.

I think I may get some of that acid 5 or acid1. and I guess it would be better to recirculate a sanitizer through it before using it instead of using hot wort. I use iodophor though. If I were to rinse it with acid 5 after using it and store it in that condition, then run an iodophor solution through it without rinsing it with water, would that have any affects on the iodophor solution?

And I think i've heard of a couple people baking their HEX to get all the water removed. I figured that would work well, but then you risk the chance of leaving behind chlorine that was dissolved in the tap water. Which of course eats SS. Any opinions on this anyone?

I recirc wort to sanitize my HEX. The idea of using Acid 5 is confusing to me. Are you meaning to sanitize with Acid 5 just prior to cooling? or, suggesting that the cleaning is enough to sanitize prior to use?

Depending on what you want the Acid 5 to do determines if you need to rinse after the CIP. Depending on the dilution Acid 5 also works to re-passivate stainless steel when it come into contact with air. This means no post rinse but is not something that needs to be done at every use.

I would want to sanitize with a diluted acid 5 solution after cleaning to keep the plates in an acidic condition, just as wayne said. If their is an acidic layer on the plates while you're not using it, there will be less chance of some sort of bacteria starting to grow.

I would want to sanitize the HEX again before using it again, but probably use something that would be no rinse. I don't imagine you would want to leave acid 5 in your lines when you start to push wort through it

Personally, I would not leave the HEX loaded with Acid 5 even with the most dilute solution. Nitric can attack stainless if given the time. Just drain the HEX, blow it out with air, and leave it rest. The reisdual solution will be enough to keep the plate in an acid state.

I say this because early in my use i made the error of storing my keggles upright neglecting the small pool of solution in the bottom thus ever so lightly etching the stainless. I have since corrected this by storing the keggles inverted and re-passivation has restored the etching to new condition.

that's interesting. I teach high school chemistry, so I know nitric acid is incredibly corrosive to metals, but I didn't know very dilute solution would still eat at SS. You use acid 5 to clean or sanitize or what?

I just use pbw for cleaning, rinse with hot water and turn my keggle upside down. I use iodophor to sanitize, so I figure if I ran some of that through it after rinsing out the pbw that would be good enough. I really don't know how to get the moisture out though. I don't have a compressor or shop vac yet... just out of college and haven't acquired many needed things yet

I use PBW for general cleaning. Acid 5 for heavy soils, acid washes, and acid rinses depending on the condition of my brewery. the only thing I sanitize is the HEX prior to use with the heat of a ligtly rolling boiling wort recirculated, previously, through a bag but now using a hop back and rice hulls somewhat successfully.

No need to sanitize the brewery. Just the HEX. So long as sanitize prior to cooling you cold just blow through the HEX to clear it. I do this sometimes cause I am too lazy to drag out the compressor hose.

you get the HEX dry enough just by blowing through it? I did that a few times but it seems like it wouldn't all come out. If I shake it it can hear a little water sloshing around in it.

rtockst said:

you get the HEX dry enough just by blowing through it? I did that a few times but it seems like it wouldn't all come out. If I shake it it can hear a little water sloshing around in it.

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Prolly not. But, i only acid wash/repassivate periodically. Maybe every 6 months to a year and I rinse it out or use it after 5 days of acid washing. I acid rinse after every brew.

Wayne1 said:

You should do more to clean than just back flush with water. Water will NOT completely remove soils.

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That's the down side to the braised non sanitary plate heat exchangers

There is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing. You need to do both with everything the beer touches post boil.

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Yup.
and as an interesting bit of data: There's a a few yeasts that have been found to be able to survive two autoclave cycles.

Which one fact standing alone informs me that you need more than just flushing with hot fluid.

Once a year I would always disassemble the HE to physically observe the channels.

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But such sanitary type plate heat exchanges costs thousands of dollars. Most home brewers just can't justify the cost.

Cliff897 said:

But such sanitary type plate heat exchanges costs thousands of dollars. Most home brewers just can't justify the cost.

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Yes and no. I forget where but internet finger walkings lefd me to a supplier that would custom fabricate a plate and frame matching the flow volume of a therminator for $1000.00 shipped. Said it'd be about 1.5 time larger.

A friend in Washington said that he can't really mount his Therminator because it has to be tipped on end for cleaning. He said that it's on the front plate of the Therminator. I went to their website and can see that there's something there - but can't really read it. Can anyone tell me what that's all about?

All I remember is that for the "bake to clean" method it's suggested by Blichman to invert the HEX on it's short side to allow steam and vapors to escape.

I think there may be some misunderstanding in what I posted. I do not suggest you SANITIZE with Acid 1 or Acid 5. I suggest you do an acid rinse after cleaning. I also suggested you allow the ACID to drain and/or be pushed out by air or CO2 and leave the plates in an acid state.

Personally, I have never had any of the stainless I have used damaged by contact with ACID 5 diluted to the correct amount. When I was brewing professionally, we would be using the brewhouse at least 2-3 times a week and mostly 4-5 times. We would not let any chemical solution stay in contact with the tanks for weeks or months. I have no personal knowledge of what happens to stainless due to extended, long term storage of Acid 5 but quite a number of breweries and dairies use it on a daily basis.

I know of at least two of the breweries I worked at use Acid 5 regularly and have had no tank damage in at least 10 years of use.

My comments about taking apart the HEX referred to when I was brewing professionally to illustrate that a proper cleaning regimen using PBW, ACID 5 and Sani-clean will keep your HEX in as new condition.

I do not use nor recommend iodophor for sanitizing. This is my preference. I have tasted too many beers that have been contaminated by over use of iodophor. Far too many people think if a little is good, a lot is better.

I have never tasted any off flavors from use of Sani-clean or Star-san. My suggestion of using Sani-clean is because it is non-foaming. This is the proper sanitizer to use if you are going to be recirculating with a pump.

The dye used in Acid 5 will change color due to extended exposure to light.

Wayne1 said:

The dye used in Acid 5 will change color due to extended exposure to light.

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Hmmmm. Meaning, what?

Interesting to me only because I kept 1 bottle out of the shipping carton, tucked in a corner with minimal light exposure while the others wre stored with no exposure to light and they all changed to a purple hue. I assumed this was temperature related as the bottles were stored for a year in a non-conditioned space. which is why I queried about pH of solutions at the varied dilutions to determine potential loss of eficacy. Seems odd to me that the answer was "I dunno".

Running a strong acid through the hex between every brew seems overkill to me but then again, I don't have a plate chiller anymore.

Bobby_M said:

Running a strong acid through the hex between every brew seems overkill to me but then again, I don't have a plate chiller anymore.

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Okay, some more misunderstanding. I have to work on my communication skills.

My suggestion was to leave the HEX in an acid state to discourage bacterial growth. To do that, I suggested running an acid rinse through the HEX.

In my world, an acid WASH with Acid 5 is a dilution of 1 oz per gallon. An acid RINSE is 1 oz per 10 gallons.

This is what I did when I brewed professionally. This is what I suggested when I worked for Five Star as Director of Brewing Services. This is what I stated when I wrote an article about cleaning heat exchangers for New Brewer. This is what I still suggest if you want to make sure your HEX will not support any bacteria growing in there, when you cannot take it apart to inspect it.

If you think it is too much, don't do it. All I can say is in over 1,000 batches that I have personally brewed, I have not had any problems related to cleaning or sanitizing the heat exchangers. Maybe it is too complicated for many homebrewers. Sorry.

Wayne1 said:

Okay, some more misunderstanding. I have to work on my communication skills.

My suggestion was to leave the HEX in an acid state to discourage bacterial growth. To do that, I suggested running an acid rinse through the HEX.

In my world, an acid WASH with Acid 5 is a dilution of 1 oz per gallon. An acid RINSE is 1 oz per 10 gallons.

This is what I did when I brewed professionally. This is what I suggested when I worked for Five Star as Director of Brewing Services. This is what I stated when I wrote an article about cleaning heat exchangers for New Brewer. This is what I still suggest if you want to make sure your HEX will not support any bacteria growing in there, when you cannot take it apart to inspect it.

If you think it is too much, don't do it. All I can say is in over 1,000 batches that I have personally brewed, I have not had any problems related to cleaning or sanitizing the heat exchangers. Maybe it is too complicated for many homebrewers. Sorry.

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Nope. It's exactly as 5 Star reccommends.

IrregularPulse said:

Just recirculate the boiling wort through it back into the BK for the last 15minutes of the boil with your pump if you have one.. The boiling wort will sanitize it. This is of course withOUT the chilling water turned on
If you don't have a pump, you'll have to disconnect it from the BK end and pour sanitizer through the whole setup from BK hose to Fermenter hose. If there is some left that makes it into the fermenter, star san makes good yeast food. I accidently racked 11G of a Blonde ale onto 2 G of star san solution. The beer was great.

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wow, racking onto 2 gallons of starsan, talk about not fearing the foam

I just got a response back from John Blichman. He said to either unbolt it for cleaning or operate it with the "Wort In" fitting facing the floor. That will purge the air and allow it to drain automatically. Nice to hear back so quickly from an authoritative source.

jim4065 said:

I just got a response back from John Blichman. He said to either unbolt it for cleaning or operate it with the "Wort In" fitting facing the floor. That will purge the air and allow it to drain automatically. Nice to hear back so quickly from an authoritative source.

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Good to know. I am in the process of building a new system with the Therminator as my chiller. Will make sure I mount it as he suggests. Thanks!

"5 star tells me there is nothing to worry about but, they also couldn't tell me the diluted pH target either." OK OK now, be nice. As I recall what we said was that the answer will depend greatly upon the STARTING pH of your carrying solution. Very hard water will have a different pH net dilution than soft water will. While pH and solution strength are related they are not neccessarily universally linear. 1-2 oz of Acid #5 per 10 gals is fine for the average Acid Rinse needs, 1 oz per gallon for re-passivation and 5 oz per gallon for initial passivation are recommended. Another advantage of Saniclean or Star San, as mentioned, is that they are often sufficiently acidic to keep the average home brewer from ever having to step over to something as corrosive as Acid #5,

Jimbo, so what you are saying is as long as my PH mixture on my Star San in below 3, I'm good to go?

The pH you want to see is below 3.5, actually. However, a second test is the clarity of solution. Made with well or even tap water, even if 'softened', a Star San or Saniclean solution is likely to cloud over time. A fully milky solution should be discarded regarless of pH as its kill mechanism is suspect at that point.

Using distilled or RO water mitigates this issue, obviously, as the issue is mineral-centered and those are removed in these waters. If you use either acid product in a spray bottle, for example, use distilled water, store the bottle out of the sunlight and it can last a long, long time. For a clear solution, if the pH is 3.5 or less, rock on. :rockin:

Yambor44 said:

Jimbo, so what you are saying is as long as my PH mixture on my Star San in below 3, I'm good to go?

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Mine starts out a little cloudy. I'll get some distilled water and see how that works. I keep mine in a sealed HD bucket for no more than 90 days. By then I change it out even though the PH is well below 3.

Yambor44, Distilled will definately be better, especially with that length of storage time. If your pH is staying below three for that long, however, that tells me you're either using a softener or the minerals aren't that bad. If the cloudiness, though present from the beginning, doesn't get worse, then moving to distilled may well be uneccessary. In light of my earlier comments on other threads today, however, I can certainly appreciate those who want to err on the side of caution. Cheers!

Thanks Jimbo. I re read the posts about cleaning and didn't see this so forgive me if it as covered. Can I use a hot solution of Oxiclean to clean my therminator via re-circulation as Wayne mentioned earlier? I just finished using it for the 2nd time and after running 5 gallons of boiling water thru it I am still getting some hop particles.