Zinc usage - amount for healthy fermentation

[JJFlash]

https://www.carolina.com/catalog/detail.jsp?prodId=899464

In small letters on the label "Not for food or drug use."

 

[JJFlash]

https://alphachemicals.com/zinc_sulfate

Marked as "feed grade" for animals.

 

[cactusgarrett]

https://www.carolina.com/catalog/detail.jsp?prodId=899464

In small letters on the label "Not for food or drug use."

Good looking out. It is reagent grade, which speaks to it's purity at least. Better than nothing. A label that says "not for food use" typically just means it hasn't been tested for that purpose. Realistically, as long as the purity is on point with this, it should be moot, since the amount used is SO miniscule.

 

[MaxStout]

This is the best liquid option I've found. Gotta make sure the only ingredients are zinc sulfate (in whatever form) and water.

 

[day_trippr]

What would be the recommended "drops per gallon" of ^that^?

Cheers!

 

[cactusgarrett]

Should still make a stock solution from that, since you'd be needing to go from 30,000 ppm down to 0.2 ppm

 

[day_trippr]

Yikes!

Maybe just wave the open bottle over the fermentor?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Maybe just wave the open bottle over the fermentor?

Pretty much. Here we go:

Per the label, 10 drops = 15 mg elemental Zn, so 1 drop = 1.5 mg
If you're dosing 5.5 gal of wort, that's 20.8 L, so
1 drop in 5.5 gal wort => 1.5 mg in 20.8 L = 0.07 ppm (mg/L)

The general concensus is that you need to achieve 0.3 ppm elemental Zn for ales, 0.2 ppm for lagers, but considering 0.1 ppm carries over from the mash/boil, you need to dose 0.1 to 0.2 ppm. That's the equivalent of 1.4 to 2.9 drops of the 30,000 ppm solution per 5.5 gal wort.

You might get away with it, but obviously measuring by drop is inherrantly inaccurate. Not a risk I'd be willing to take, as overdosing can be toxic to yeast and have the opposite effects of what you're going for.

 

[stealthfixr]

View attachment 850575

Have you worked out a dosage guideline for typical beer batch sizes? Do you drop this in at yeast pitch?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Have you worked out a dosage guideline for typical beer batch sizes? Do you drop this in at yeast pitch?

It's accepted 0.1 ppm carries over, and dosages of 0.1 ppm to 0.2 ppm (lagers/ales, respectively) is the target to get up to 0.2ppm and 0.3ppm.

Dosing in the fermeter is the latest process, as the elemental zinc gets bound up in trub in the kettle.

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ZincInFermentation.pdf

 

[stealthfixr]

Just found this as well...

Zinc Buddy in 1L size for $28. Looks like about 2ml for a 5gal batch size would hit the 0.2ppm level.

https://www.whitelabs.com/enzymes-nutrients-detail?id=340&page=2&type=ENZYMENUTRIENT

 

[MaxStout]

You might get away with it, but obviously measuring by drop is inherrantly inaccurate. Not a risk I'd be willing to take, as overdosing can be toxic to yeast and have the opposite effects of what you're going for.

Probably better to pipette 1ml into a container and dilute with distilled water up to, say 100ml. Then adjust your addition by a factor of 100. You can deal with ml instead of drops.

 

[IslandLizard]

https://alphachemicals.com/zinc_sulfate

Marked as "feed grade" for animals.

That doesn't automatically make it unsuitable for brewing, especially in the light of the infinitesimal (very small) amounts used for our purposes: micrograms in a 5 gallon batch. But let's not debate food grade vs. feed grade vs. lab grade vs. reagent grade vs. pharmaceutical grade vs. whatever-other grade.

I'm not endorsing using non-food grade chemicals, nutrients, and other products for human consumption, even in whatever small quantities they may typically be ingested.

Good looking out. It is reagent grade, which speaks to it's purity at least.

Exactly!
For those interested, here's a site that describes various "grades:"
https://goldbio.com/articles/articl...ratory#:~:text=Reagent Grade– A high purity,4.

Heer's one of the threads discussing the use of Zinc in brewing:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...d-water-mashed-beer-leads-to-harshness.653771

In that thread, @Silver_Is_Money mentions using Good State - Ionic Liquid Zinc Ultra Concentrate drops (Post #9) the same drops @MaxStout linked to, above (in post #35).

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, so if I have this right:

1 ML of the zinc solution contains 30mg of zinc
If I dilute 1 ML of it in 100ML of DI water each ML now contains 0.3 of Zinc.
A 5.5g batch could use up to an additional 4.35 mg.
So I would add 14.5 ML of the diluted solution per 5.5 gallons of wort.

Look right?

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

^^Math checks out.^^

 

[day_trippr]

Thanks, at my age I appreciate the sanity check

Cheers!

 

[mashdar]

FWIW, measuring in drops can be perfectly adequate if consistently applied and calibrated (ideally with the actual liquid being measured). We don't need 1% precision!

IMO I'd rather not store 1:100 diluted solution for extended periods. Too much chance for spoilage, and who knows what the original relies on to maintain suspension.

 

[cactusgarrett]

IMO I'd rather not store 1:100 diluted solution for extended periods. Too much chance for spoilage, and who knows what the original relies on to maintain suspension.

Measuring in drops can be precise, but less likely to be accurate. My point being that on our homebrew level, we're not likely calbrating equipment to be accurate and precise at the drop-level.

Also, I was then going to mention: it's suggested to prepare the stock solution with boiled water, sanitize the container (pros often autoclave their equipemnt for this), and acidify the solution to keep the Zn dissolved.

From White Lab's Yeast Buddy product page:

IS THE SOLUTION PH IMPORTANT?​

Yes! The low pH (4.0) helps the zinc salt remain soluble in solution, providing the most optimal delivery to yeast cells. If zinc isn’t soluble, it can’t efficiently be taken up by yeast.

 

[mashdar]

I started writing a procedure for calibrating a dropper (which is very easy), but then realized this thing comes with a calibrated dropper, lol. No need to make it more complicated than 1 drop = 1.5mg, if you trust whatever factory made that stuff. No USP stamp.

 

[z-bob]

What about just adding a hot-dip galvanized washer or spike, or a post-1982 penny with all the copper sanded or etched off, to the kettle or to the fermenter? Won't traces of zinc leach into the wort? (if most of it from the kettle gets bound in the trub, that might be a good thing so you don't overdose it) I believe German breweries in particular, perhaps unknowingly, used to get their zinc from galvanized and brass fittings.

 

[day_trippr]

I believe German breweries in particular, perhaps unknowingly, used to get their zinc from galvanized and brass fittings.

More likely they got it from the extensive use of copper in the brewery...

Cheers!

 

[SunOfMay]

Measuring in drops can be precise, but less likely to be accurate. My point being that on our homebrew level, we're not likely calbrating equipment to be accurate and precise at the drop-level.

Also, I was then going to mention: it's suggested to prepare the stock solution with boiled water, sanitize the container (pros often autoclave their equipemnt for this), and acidify the solution to keep the Zn dissolved.

From White Lab's Yeast Buddy product page:

Isn't this unnecessary though with this product? It is already in a RO water soluble form, which means they must have acidified the RO water for it to be soluble, so the liquid is already in that form. I was planning on simply using a micropippete and sending in 142 ul (picoliters) or .142 ml into the fermenter and call it a day. Any reason other than easier measuring purposes you would create a stock solution?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Any reason other than easier measuring purposes you would create a stock solution?

Not at all. I don't have a micropipette, so measuring 2-5 mL is more practical in my brewhouse.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, that Ionic Zinc product (as shown in post #44) came with a plain glass dropper, not a line to be seen.

After all the discussion I will use said dropper for 4 drops into my 11 gallons of wort which should be roughly the middle of the recommended range described earlier.

A steady hand will help No drinking!

Cheers!

 

[mashdar]

fwiw, that Ionic Zinc product (as shown in post #44) came with a plain glass dropper, not a line to be seen.

After all the discussion I will use said dropper for 4 drops into my 11 gallons of wort which should be roughly the middle of the recommended range described earlier.

A steady hand will help No drinking!

Cheers!

You could always measure into a little water, then dump into wort. That way if you slip, it's a recoverable error.

 

[day_trippr]

I'll file that excellent advise away for next time as I "raw dogged" it today.
Two drops per 5.5 gallons in both carboys, no problemo.
But I was being crazy careful. Too much pressure!

Cheers!

 

[cactusgarrett]

hould be roughly the middle of the recommended range described earlier.

Yeah, keep in mind the suggested dosing rate for lagers is half of what it is for ales.

 

[day_trippr]

I noticed that and wondered why that is.
Anyway, it's been awhile since I did a true lager, but I'll keep that in mind.

Cheers!

 

[cactusgarrett]

I noticed that and wondered why that is.

Must be something about lager strains being more susceptible to Zn toxicity. It was mentioned in Joe Kinney's presenation (slide 7), but not explained.
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ZincInFermentation.pdf

 

[Indian_villager]

Measuring in drops can be precise, but less likely to be accurate. My point being that on our homebrew level, we're not likely calbrating equipment to be accurate and precise at the drop-level.

Also, I was then going to mention: it's suggested to prepare the stock solution with boiled water, sanitize the container (pros often autoclave their equipemnt for this), and acidify the solution to keep the Zn dissolved.

From White Lab's Yeast Buddy product page:

Hey thanks for posting this article! One of the big takeaways I am getting from this article is the impact on the next generation when reused. As someone who overbuilds starters and harvests from there I think I will be trying to dose my starters as well as my fermenters from here on out.

Based on the math posted earlier it looks like 2drops/20L is the ticket for ales. So for a 2L starter I'll be using 2 drops to make a 100mL stock solution, and use 10mL of that toward a 2L starter.

Also I found the following zinc solution which has the same concentration while being cheaper Amazon Link

 

[stamandster]

A few Whitelab articles also discuss Zinc additions @ 0.20ppm per 5 gallons.

https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=66
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=101
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=122
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=133

So a few calculations using Zinc Glycinate (and the help of ChatGPT)

• Dose volume: 5 gallons of water = 18.925 liters.
• Zinc glycinate is 29% zinc by weight.
• For 0.20 PPM:
  • Amount of zinc needed = 0.20 mg/L×18.925 L=3.785 mg0.20 \, \text{mg/L} \times 18.925 \, \text{L} = 3.785 \, \text{mg}0.20mg/L×18.925L=3.785mg.
  • Amount of zinc glycinate needed:Mass of zinc (mg)0.29=3.7850.29=13.05 mg.\frac{\text{Mass of zinc (mg)}}{0.29} = \frac{3.785}{0.29} = 13.05 \, \text{mg}.0.29Mass of zinc (mg)=0.293.785=13.05mg.
• Convert the zinc glycinate needed for one dose to grams:
  13.05 mg÷1000=0.01305 g.13.05 \, \text{mg} \div 1000 = 0.01305 \, \text{g}.13.05mg÷1000=0.01305g.

If you bought 100g Zinc Glycinate power supplement from Amazon for $15 you'd get approximately 7,663 doses of 0.20 PPM of zinc into 5 gallons from 100g of zinc glycinate. For a 2 liter starter you'd want 1.38 mg (0.00138 g).

But you may want to sterilize the water before pitching for a starter, or add after boil during brewing.

Go the cheaper route my friends

 

[mac_1103]

Zinc Glycinate

Discussed upthread. May not actually make zinc ions available to the yeast.

Go the cheaper route my friends

Also upthread:

you can buy a whole pound of Zinc Sulphate from Alpha Chemicals for $3.50

You also can get ten pounds on amazon for 25 bucks! Or one pound for $7. It's 99% pure and 35.5% zinc.

 

[stamandster]

Dang, I must've missed it scrolling through for pure Zinc. I mean either way we'll probably NEVER brew 7k plus times.

Also, what was discussed was Gluconate, not Glycinate. Both are chelating agents. Glycinate is a chelate (bonding) of the amino acid glycine to another substance or element; mineral chelates as glycinates are common. Gluconate (not glucinate) is a chelate (bonding) of gluconic acid to another substance, such as a mineral chelate. Zinc Glycinate can have a bioavailability of zinc by 43.4% compared to zinc gluconate. It seems to also provide amino acid, Glycine.

The Glycine amino acid can affect yeast fermentation in a number of ways, including:

• Glycine can help stabilize mitochondrial activity during fermentation, which is important for brewer's yeasts.
• Yeast can synthesize glycine from formate and carbon dioxide.
• Yeast can grow on glycine as its sole nitrogen source.
• Yeast can convert glycine to serine through a process called glycine decarboxylation. This process is catalyzed by the glycine decarboxylase multienzyme complex (GDC).
• Glycine may be a precursor for glyoxylate in yeast.

And here's a study - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7029386/

Thanks! @mac_1103 (also realized I must be slacking to have only 955 posts and joined 13+ years ago to only 2 years and 4,600+ posts)

 

[cactusgarrett]

also realized I must be slacking to have only 955 posts and joined 13+ years ago to only 2 years and 4,600+ posts

It's about quality, not quantity.

 

[mac_1103]

I must be slacking to have only 955 posts and joined 13+ years ago to only 2 years and 4,600+ posts

I'm retired.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

STAM ypu said A few Whitelab articles also discuss Zinc additions @ 0.20ppm per 5 gallons.

you can't have ppm per gallons ppm is absolute

 

[mashdar]

STAM ypu said A few Whitelab articles also discuss Zinc additions @ 0.20ppm per 5 gallons.

you can't have ppm per gallons ppm is absolute

Maybe you increase concentration with volume ; )

 

[JJFlash]

Williams Brewing $10.50

 

[MaxStout]

Wyeast beer nutrient blend. It has everything a growing yeastie needs. Including zinc.

 

[day_trippr]

For 15 gallons of wort. Woof.
I'll stick with the Ionic Zinc...

Cheers!