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Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH ...

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Perhaps we specifically need Martin to direct us to where his sources emphatically stated that 5.2 to 5.6 mash pH is to be ideally achieved as measured at room temperature, so we can confirm he didn't just slip that in.

The Bamforth article you referenced is the one where my quote came from.
 
Perhaps we specifically need Martin to direct us to where his sources emphatically stated that 5.2 to 5.6 mash pH is to be ideally achieved as measured at room temperature, so we can confirm he didn't just slip that in.

The Bamforth article you referenced is the one where my quote came from.

I just gave you the references those come from- its the same reference cited by Bamforth
 
I just gave you the references those come from- its the same reference cited by Bamforth

Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

About 2-3 months ago I emailed Bamforth for clarification on this, but he never responded to my email.
 
Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

I don't have the references so I can't look them up, but seeing as how two separate sources site Briggs as being the source, I think it's probably safe to believe that that's where it comes from. Or do you believe that both Martin and Charlie falsified references?
 
Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

About 2-3 months ago I emailed Bamforth for clarification on this, but he never responded to my email.

"The average initial pH of wort (20°C) is ≈5.3, ranging from 5.0 to 6.0 (43); ale wort is generally lower (pH 5.1) and lager beer slightly higher (pH 5.4–5.7) (3)"
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...tFileKey=5cb4adcb-f322-488b-982f-2b7536a00636

From the references:
3. Anness, B. J., and Bamforth, C. W. (1981). Dimethyl sulphide—A review. J. Inst. Brew. Distill. 88:244-252.
43. Meilgaard, M. (1999). Wort composition. In: The Practical Brewer, pp. 147-164. J. T. McCabe, ed. Master Brewers Association of the Americas, Wauwatosa, WI.
 
...measured at 20 degrees C...

Bamforth wrote an overview of pH in brewing in 2001 that states:

When searching the literature, the reader should be cautious about the pH values quoted and inferences made about their impact, because the temperature is not always quoted.


I think that even though it may be standard to measure/report pH taken from a 20*C sample, it certainly doesn't seem to be universal...
 
Bamforth wrote an overview of pH in brewing in 2001 that states:

I think that even though it may be standard to measure/report pH taken from a 20*C sample, it certainly doesn't seem to be universal...

Within the fields I've worked in (agricultural science/ plant pathology), it is standard to measure pH at 20C. If the measured temp isn't given, then it is expected that it was measure at 20C
 
Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

About 2-3 months ago I emailed Bamforth for clarification on this, but he never responded to my email.

I found this

https://books.google.com/books?id=mROkAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=Briggs+wort+ph&source=bl&ots=9Vq8uO32DZ&sig=ACfU3U3DV5nlSpl45Hbbpj56RZSDsJYcrQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-suXHttHlAhWDmeAKHaChC6gQ6AEwEXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Briggs wort ph&f=false

Page 114 Table 4.9 Optimal pH values for normal isothermal infusion mashes

shows the optimal pH range for a list of outcomes - I would hazard a guess that Martin looked at the needs of homebrewers and settled on 5.2-5.4 @ room temperature as the best hybrid of characteristics to meet the needs of the most people - but that is only a guess

Page 115

"Infusion mashes are best carried out at a pH of 5.2-5.4 (mash temperature) and so will give cooled worts with pH values of about 5.5-5.8."

Which matches with the findings of the OP - and is the pH range for greatest extract obtained (most money savings), not necessarily the best tasting beer.
 
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"The average initial pH of wort (20°C) is ≈5.3, ranging from 5.0 to 6.0 (43); ale wort is generally lower (pH 5.1) and lager beer slightly higher (pH 5.4–5.7) (3)"
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...tFileKey=5cb4adcb-f322-488b-982f-2b7536a00636

From the references:
3. Anness, B. J., and Bamforth, C. W. (1981). Dimethyl sulphide—A review. J. Inst. Brew. Distill. 88:244-252.
43. Meilgaard, M. (1999). Wort composition. In: The Practical Brewer, pp. 147-164. J. T. McCabe, ed. Master Brewers Association of the Americas, Wauwatosa, WI.


Anness, B. J., and Bamforth, C. W. (1981). Dimethyl sulphide—A review. J. Inst. Brew. Distill. 88:244-252. can be accessed at: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1982.tb04101.x

"In particular, lager worts are usually of pH 5.4-5.7 compared with ale worts which are typically ca pH 5.1."
 
"The average initial pH of wort (20°C) is ≈5.3, ranging from 5.0 to 6.0 (43); ale wort is generally lower (pH 5.1) and lager beer slightly higher (pH 5.4–5.7) (3)"
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...tFileKey=5cb4adcb-f322-488b-982f-2b7536a00636

If you read this article it is talking (at the quoted juncture) of wort pH's measured just before fermentation is initiated. It is not discussing mash pH. It is discussing post boil and cooling pH. And pH drops during the boil.
 
Within the fields I've worked in (agricultural science/ plant pathology), it is standard to measure pH at 20C. If the measured temp isn't given, then it is expected that it was measure at 20C

It's apparently not standard in brewing...

That head brewer from Alchemist that says he targets a 5.1-5.3 pH also said that it's the mash temp pH he's referring to.
 
In the book titled "Brew Like A Monk" on page 159 it is stated that the Rochefort Trappist Monastery mashes at 5.8 to 5.9 pH, and mineral acid adjusts later on in the kettle such that 5.2 pH is achieved leading into fermentation. They are rated as producing some of the worlds finest beers. They are clearly not mashing at anywhere near pH 5.1 to 5.3. The article does not mention what temperature they measure their mash pH at, but based upon 5.8-5.9 pH I would initially presume room temperature. As such they are targeting the top end of the mash pH range sighted in my OP quote. Anyone who tells you that mashing at this high of a room temperature measured pH will ruin your beer is likely to be flat out incorrect.
 
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It's apparently not standard in brewing...

That head brewer from Alchemist that says he targets a 5.1-5.3 pH also said that it's the mash temp pH he's referring to.

That would mean he 'effectively' targets 5.4 to 5.6 in the mash for the case of readings taken at room temperature. He is therefore targeting the bottom end of the 5.5-5.8 commercial brewing mash pH range quoted in my OP.
 
If you read this article it is talking (at the quoted juncture) of wort pH's measured just before fermentation is initiated. It is not discussing mash pH. It is discussing post boil and cooling pH. And pH drops during the boil.
My mistake, I misread that the first time through.
 
It's apparently not standard in brewing...

That head brewer from Alchemist that says he targets a 5.1-5.3 pH also said that it's the mash temp pH he's referring to.
There may be a disconnect between what the brewing scientist are measuring and what the brewer's are. EBC methods are to measure at 20C. ABSC beer is at 20C, and unfortunately their wort protocol is behind a paywall.
 
There may be a disconnect between what the brewing scientist are measuring and what the brewer's are. EBC methods are to measure at 20C. ABSC beer is at 20C, and unfortunately their wort protocol is behind a paywall.

EBC standard 8.17, which specifies post lautering and all stages of sparging and/or run-off "Wort pH" (which is different from Mash pH) does state to take such "Wort pH" readings at 20 degrees C. But it is talking about pH measurements made downstream of the mash. I've searched in vain (so far at least) for either an EBC or ASBC specification for the taking of specifically a mash pH. That such has not materialized indicates to me that there is little commercial interest in establishing such a specification, and my presumption is that this is due to their more pressing concern with fine tuning downstream Wort pH pre-boil such that they achieve 5.0 - 5.2 pH as measured at 20 degrees C. post boil and cooling.
 
In the textbook "Mashing and Brewing Science" by Briggs, Hough, Stevens, and Young it is stated that

The pH of mash or wort alters with the temperature. At 65˚C (149˚F) the pH of mash will be about 0.35 unit less than at 18˚C (65˚F), owing to the greater dissociation of the acidic buffer substances present. Therefore, enzymes whose pH optima are known from determination at 20˚C (68˚F) appear to have higher pH optima in the mash if this is cooled, as is usual, before pH determination. An infusion mash is best carried at pH 5.2-5.4. Consequently, the pH in the cooled wort will be 5.5-5.8.

For those referencing Briggs, there it is. Mash pH as measured at mash temperature and as extrapolated to room temperature.
 
In the textbook "Mashing and Brewing Science" by Briggs, Hough, Stevens, and Young it is stated that



For those referencing Briggs, there it is. Mash pH as measured at mash temperature and as extrapolated to room temperature.

Reference his table 4.9 as well

As stated in my earlier post #38. That is the optimum pH if going for maximum extraction which is usually the prime goal of every commercial brewery
 
Head brewer of a brewery in the region told me they mash their Pils at 4.8 (not sure the temp that's read at). My jaw dropped. He said be was skeptical too, got the advice from some German brewers (don't know who), and it worked. I'm still not sure how much I believe it. It's a decent Pils though.

Honestly, this doesn't surprise me much. When you start looking into the biochemistry of alpha and beta amylase you find that their pH tolerances are quite remarkable. Both retain at least 80% of their activity between pHs of 4 and 6.5 (I posted links to research articles in some other thread.. ..can't find the post though). Somehow or another these details never made it into the enzyme activity charts, which show quite stringent pH ranges.. ..but this may have more to do with pleasant downstream pHs than getting actual conversion in the mash. I have also mashed a pilsener at a pH of ~4.8 - it converted just fine and the beer attenuated as expected.
 
Mashing at a room-temp pH in the lower end of the range (say ~5.2), does invite excessive proteolysis and the resulting beer can be a bit thinner. If you're dealing with a big beer and need to reduce body, then that lower pH target may not be a problem. For most other batches, I would not go that low for the mash. 5.4 is a pretty good target.

As you've probably heard me mention, there are beer styles that benefit from having a lower wort pH. But that can be achieved after the mash via an acid addition during or after the boil. German brewing practice does target a more normal mashing pH in the 5.4 to 5.6 range and the wort is acidified at the end of the boil to bring it into the 5.1 to 5.2 range. The higher pH helps convert and expel DMS from the wort. The pH reduction helps the yeast out and ultimately provides a crisper flavor presentation in the beer. Since I haven't heard of British brewers conducting post boil or pre-ferment acidification, I'm not too inclined that they mash at too high of a pH. But the other consideration is that typical British ale yeasts do have decent acidification capability.

To those that want to give high mash pH a try, I say go for it. But my experience is that high mashing and wort pH is the number one cause of the dull beers that we often find from homebrewers and craftbrewers that don't attend to water chemistry adjustment.
 
Haven't we been round and round enough about this topic already?!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/page-2#post-8653242

https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

The trouble with all of this is, people will believe whatever the frick they want to believe, whether it's right or not.

I've spent dozens of hours thinking on all this and my conclusion is I'm going to measure at mash temperature and I'm gonna shoot for about 5.35. That's 5.6 at room temp. The conversion is 0.25 as proven by myself and many others. Which no one is gonna listen to so I don't care anymore.
 
Mashing at a room-temp pH in the lower end of the range (say ~5.2), does invite excessive proteolysis and the resulting beer can be a bit thinner. If you're dealing with a big beer and need to reduce body, then that lower pH target may not be a problem. For most other batches, I would not go that low for the mash. 5.4 is a pretty good target.

As you've probably heard me mention, there are beer styles that benefit from having a lower wort pH. But that can be achieved after the mash via an acid addition during or after the boil. German brewing practice does target a more normal mashing pH in the 5.4 to 5.6 range and the wort is acidified at the end of the boil to bring it into the 5.1 to 5.2 range. The higher pH helps convert and expel DMS from the wort. The pH reduction helps the yeast out and ultimately provides a crisper flavor presentation in the beer. Since I haven't heard of British brewers conducting post boil or pre-ferment acidification, I'm not too inclined that they mash at too high of a pH. But the other consideration is that typical British ale yeasts do have decent acidification capability.

To those that want to give high mash pH a try, I say go for it. But my experience is that high mashing and wort pH is the number one cause of the dull beers that we often find from homebrewers and craftbrewers that don't attend to water chemistry adjustment.
Briggs, et al. specifies that an infusion mash should have a mash temperature pH of 5.2-5.4, room temperature 5.5-5.8, and that a decoction mash should be no lower than 5.5 mash temperature [I wonder if this is because boiling will have a degrading effect on proteins?] But British brewers do use kettle finings, and Briggs, et al., while not directly referring (that I've spotted) to kettle acidification, does acknowledge the fact that a kettle pH of 5.0 is absolutely necessary for the proper functioning of kettle finings. This at least implies that they do make some adjustments.

Meanwhile I know that every aspect of my beers of any sort, not just yield of extract but all qualities of the finished product, are superior when mashing at 5.5-5.6 (room temperature) and acidifying in the kettle. So as Dave says I'll keep believing whatever the frick. [emoji3]
 
Haven't we been round and round enough about this topic already?!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/page-2#post-8653242

https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

The trouble with all of this is, people will believe whatever the frick they want to believe, whether it's right or not.

I've spent dozens of hours thinking on all this and my conclusion is I'm going to measure at mash temperature and I'm gonna shoot for about 5.35. That's 5.6 at room temp. The conversion is 0.25 as proven by myself and many others. Which no one is gonna listen to so I don't care anymore.

Wow yeah you guys did. Talk about going in circles

Great thread and thank you for posting... thats the frustrating thing about the internet these days, knowledge is gained and lost, then questioned, then “proven wrong” then “proven right” so quickly we sometimes feel like it’s hopeless when a whole new debate pops up over the same questions over and over.

My apologies to everyone and especially Silver is Money for perpetuating this madness
 
Wow yeah you guys did. Talk about going in circles

Great thread and thank you for posting... thats the frustrating thing about the internet these days, knowledge is gained and lost, then questioned, then “proven wrong” then “proven right” so quickly we sometimes feel like it’s hopeless when a whole new debate pops up over the same questions over and over.

My apologies to everyone and especially Silver is Money for perpetuating this madness

Well, Silver did initiate this thread, so... ;)
 
Well, Silver did initiate this thread, so... ;)

True, but his frustration is justified

Maybe homebrewing has reached a level of sophistication where pH needs a style specific range like sulfate/chloride ratio though?

Swag numbers:

All pH in room temp measured values, beer color independent

Sour crisp/dry thin body (berliner)- 3.2-4.0
Tart crisp/dry thin body - 4.5-5
crisp with thin body - 5.1-5.4
Moderate body- 5.2-5.5
soft with full body -5.5-5.8

Literally just off the top of my head so meaningless numbers but would something like this be a viable concept?
 
Maybe pH needs a style specific range like sulfate/chloride ratio though?

Oh, no, let's not get started on the farce that is "the ratio"............

As for pH, I'm going to stick with 5.6 for every style for a few years. Then maybe report back if/when I'm wrong about it. Maybe.
 
Oh, no, let's not get started on the farce that is "the ratio"............

Not to derail the thread buuuuut...


Was just listening to an episode of master brewers podcast with the head brewer of ballast point and he said something to the effect of

“Its a subtle difference and you need a ratio of 3:1 or 4:1 to make a real perceptible difference. Not only does the ratio matter but the absolute levels matter as well, so I always try to target around 120ppm of the higher of the two salts. So in a hoppy beer I shoot for 120ppm sulfate and 40ppm chloride. Lower numbers just don’t have enough effect to make a reliably measurable difference in flavor to tasters”

So I’m currently giving that a shot in my current and next few brews to see if it makes a difference that i can spot without any rigorous sensory testing
 
In the textbook "Mashing and Brewing Science" by Briggs, Hough, Stevens, and Young it is stated that



For those referencing Briggs, there it is. Mash pH as measured at mash temperature and as extrapolated to room temperature.

I won't argue over the pH ranges needed, but I'll hold firm that the pH should be measured at room temperature, if for no other reason but not to cause undue wear on the electrode. Then again, this could be some OCD/anal-retentive trend that has stuck with me from being a lab lackey.
 
I won't argue over the pH ranges needed, but I'll hold firm that the pH should be measured at room temperature, if for no other reason but not to cause undue wear on the electrode. Then again, this could be some OCD/anal-retentive trend that has stuck with me from being a lab lackey.
We can all agree that, practically, the measurement must be taken at room temperature. Now, because it is easier on the probe. In the early days before electroconductivity based instruments, because the reactions needed to be carried out at that temperature. But the confusion comes in because we know that the room temperature measurement is just a proxy for the actual mash temperature pH reflecting actual mash chemistry. Texts that are not explicit in declaring which value they are citing are a real problem. Some you would expect to be the most rigorous like Kunze are the sloppiest in sliding between citing the two ranges without clarification. With enough experience it is easy to recognize what the author intends, but this requires discernment the average homebrewer just attempting to grasp the subject lacks. Many popular homebrew authorities who are assumed to have expertise prove to be lacking this understanding.
 
Briggs, et al. specifies that an infusion mash should have a mash temperature pH of 5.2-5.4, room temperature 5.5-5.8, and that a decoction mash should be no lower than 5.5 mash temperature [I wonder if this is because boiling will have a degrading effect on proteins?]
It's most likely beacause lower PH would inhibit Maillard reactions which is something you would instead rather like to promote when doing a decoction.
 
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