Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH ...

[Silver_Is_Money]

... but rather mash at 5.5 to 5.8 pH.

See page 416 at the link provided below to yet another peer reviewed commercial brewing research document. I quote the relevant section:

The first worts of oats and barley did not show significant differences regarding pH values. However, in pre-boiled worts the oat pH values again were slightly higher than the ones measured in barley. Nevertheless, both mash pH values lay within the pH range of 5.5–5.8, which is commonly observed in commercial brewing.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00487.x

 

[bracconiere]

i didn't read the link but, i know when i get my mash ph to 5.3, tested at mash temp...i get a few points better efficiency...and i don't brew with oats?...

 

[bob1852]

A room temp pH of ~5.5-5.8 is a mash temp pH of ~5.2-5.5.

As is usually the case in these mash pH debates, I'm guessing there's some apples/oranges comparisons being made....

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.2 to 5.5 mash pH as measured at mash temperature is fully apples to apples with 5.5 to 5.8 mash pH as measured at 20 degrees C. (68 degrees F.).

 

[bob1852]

Temperature isn't mentioned in your first post....

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

i didn't read the link but, i know when i get my mash ph to 5.3, tested at mash temp...i get a few points better efficiency...and i don't brew with oats?...

This would be commensurate with a pH measurement of ~5.6 at room temperature. And also within the range of 5.5 to 5.8.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Temperature isn't mentioned in your first post....

Yes, in retrospect the title of this thread should have more properly been "Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH when measured at room temperature, but rather when measured at mash temperature".

 

[Vale71]

5.2 is way too low and starts inhibiting alpha-amylase resulting in low attenuation values. No commercial operation would target such a low PH.
I guess the notion that 5.2 is OK came from the use of PH stabilizers (only used by homebrewers) that will stabilize mash PH at exactly that value.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.2 is way too low and starts inhibiting alpha-amylase resulting in low attenuation values. No commercial operation would target such a low PH.

Unless they were targeting 5.2 pH as measured at mash temperature.

 

[bob1852]

5.2 is way too low and starts inhibiting alpha-amylase resulting in low attenuation values. No commercial operation would target such a low PH.
I guess the notion that 5.2 is OK came from the use of PH stabilizers (only used by homebrewers) that will stabilize mash PH at exactly that value.

The Alchemist Brewery reportedly targets a mash pH of 5.1-5.3 for Heady Topper....

 

[Vale71]

Unless they were targeting 5.2 pH as measured at mash temperature.

Measurements are always performed at 20°C.

 

[Vale71]

The Alchemist Brewery reportedly targets a mash pH of 5.1-5.3 for Heady Topper....

Reported by whom?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Measurements are always performed at 20°C.

I've come to seriously doubt that home brewers mantra. And particularly more so as it relates to commercial brewing (unless the 5.2-5.5 at mash temp to 5.5-5.8 at room temp adjustment is applied).

I will however accept that post mash and pre-boil Wort pH is to be measured and adjusted at 20 degrees C., as there is an EBC standardized procedure which defines that measurement.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Reported by whom?

And if true, at what temperature are they measuring it? After all, they are commercial (albeit small commercial).

 

[bob1852]

Reported by whom?

Their head brewer.

 

[Vale71]

He actually told you that? In that case, did he mention at what temperature they measured?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In the expectation that it will come up at some juncture, ATC does not compensate for what is being discussed here. It would be more true to say that thanks to ATC a mash temperature pH of ~5.2 and a room temperature measurement of the very same sample at ~5.5 pH can both be assured to be correct.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Our club just brewed a collaboration Triple IPA at Red Tank Brewing in New Jersey and their head brewer definitely does target 5.0-5.5 ph range. I don't think it's a good idea to lump all brewers into a single category when it comes to their brewing process.

As far as I know ATC gives the most accurate results when both the calibration and mash pH reading are done at the same temperatures. Which is not the case in all instances, where the calibration is done at room temperature and the pH sampled at mash temperature.

 

[Vale71]

Our club just brewed a collaboration Triple IPA at Red Tank Brewing in New Jersey and their head brewer definitely does target 5.0-5.5 ph range. I don't think it's a good idea to lump all brewers into a single category when it comes to their brewing process.

I totally agree. Brewers shouldn't automatically be lumped into the "professionally competent" category.
Some commercial beers I've had the misfortune of tasting are strong proof to the contrary...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Our club just brewed a collaboration Triple IPA at Red Tank Brewing in New Jersey and their head brewer definitely does target 5.0-5.5 ph range. I don't think it's a good idea to lump all brewers into a single category when it comes to their brewing process.

As far as I know ATC gives the most accurate results when both the calibration and mash pH reading are done at the same temperatures. Which is not the case in all instances, where the calibration is done at room temperature and the pH sampled at mash temperature.

At this juncture we might want to consider that many small commercials were once home brewers, and also that many to most of them do not receive formal larger scale commercial brewery level training before or after making the transition. Thus their home brewing level training (be it ideal or less than ideal) makes the leap to small scale commercial. Commercials (larger scale at least) also more typically can be expected to adjust their Wort pH just prior to or perhaps part way into the boil step such that post boil and pre-fermentation pH comes in at between 5.0 and 5.2 pH as measured at 20 degrees C.

 

[Vale71]

One small leap for a man, one giant leap towards brewing and selling crappy beer...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

One small leap for a man, one giant leap towards brewing and selling crappy beer...

I've also tasted a lot of micro-brewery level beer that falls into the lousy category.

 

[TheMadKing]

5.2 is way too low and starts inhibiting alpha-amylase resulting in low attenuation values. No commercial operation would target such a low PH.
I guess the notion that 5.2 is OK came from the use of PH stabilizers (only used by homebrewers) that will stabilize mash PH at exactly that value.

Or it came from some very knowledgable water experts Aj and Martin https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

the problem with those pH stabilizers is that they can't possibly do the exact thing you just said: stabilize every mash at an exact value. Wort parameters vary from beer to beer in water buffering capacity, grain buffering capacity, etc so no single additive can possibly buffer all mashes at the same pH, nor is pH a stable value at any point and rises throughout the mash.

The commonly stated values of 5.2-5.4 (now revised to 5.1-5.5) should be as measured in a 68F sample, approximately 10 minutes into the mash for consistency.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Charles Bamforth had this to say about mash pH:

There have been surprisingly few (if any) detailed studies of the precise impact of pH on mashing performance and wort composition. Textbooks of brewing make reference to “optimum” pH’s for parameters such as extract and “wort filtration”, though they are conspicuous by the lack of references. One textbook refers to a previous textbook! It seems that a largely empirical approach has been employed. How the data has been generated and on what scale (lab mashes are not always good mimics of commercial mashes) is unclear.

Per Wikipedia: Charles W. Bamforth is the Immediate Past President of the Institute of Brewing and Distilling and Anheuser-Busch Endowed Professor of Malting and Brewing Sciences at University of California, Davis.

My take on this is that much of what we think we know as fact with regard to mash pH comes from nothing more substantial than circular reasoning as opposed to hard science. The home brewers mantra that beer should be mashed at 5.2 to 5.6 pH as measured at room temperature is as likely as not to have its origin in such circular reasoning.

 

[bracconiere]

5.2 is way too low and starts inhibiting alpha-amylase resulting in low attenuation values.

if it inhibits alpha-amylase, wouldn't that cause it to be more attenuatble? being that beta is what makes it more attenuable... or maybe i'm not understanding what you're saying?

Unless they were targeting 5.2 pH as measured at mash temperature.

everything i've read about mash ph says 'at mash temp'.....(not that it's that much, i just check it and go with what works)

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

The 5.1-5.3 pH is reported by John Kimmich.

 

[eric19312]

Good article.

Couple points.

1. pH is clearly tested at 20C. Page 412, column 1 near the bottom: The pH values, colour, viscosity, TSN, FAN and β-glucan were analysed according to the EBC-methods 8.17, 8.5, 8.4, 8.9.1, 8.10 and 8.13.1. Here is a link to EBC 8.17 https://brewup.eu/ebc-analytica/wort/ph-of-wort/8.17

2. The article states "The first worts of oats and barley did not show significant differences regarding pH values. However, in pre-boiled worts the oat pH values again were slightly higher than the ones measured in barley. Nevertheless, both mash pH values lay within the pH range of 5.5–5.828, which is commonly observed in commercial brewing."

Pre boil wort - what is that? I assume this is kettle pH at the end of lautering before boiling. Again this would be a room temperature pH. This is not a 5, 15 or 30 minute pH. They only looked at 5 min on the barley mash and 15 min on the oat mash. The number silver focused on was preboil.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Head brewer of a brewery in the region told me they mash their Pils at 4.8 (not sure the temp that's read at). My jaw dropped. He said be was skeptical too, got the advice from some German brewers (don't know who), and it worked. I'm still not sure how much I believe it. It's a decent Pils though.

 

[TheMadKing]

Charles Bamforth had this to say about mash pH:
Per Wikipedia: Charles W. Bamforth is the Immediate Past President of the Institute of Brewing and Distilling and Anheuser-Busch Endowed Professor of Malting and Brewing Sciences at University of California, Davis.

My take on this is that much of what we think we know as fact with regard to mash pH comes from nothing more substantial than circular reasoning as opposed to hard science. The home brewers mantra that beer should be mashed at 5.2 to 5.6 pH as measured at room temperature is as likely as not to have its origin in such circular reasoning.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Martin cites:

Briggs, D.E., J.S. Hough, R. Stevens, and T.W. Young, Malting and Brewing Science, 2nd Ed. London, Chapman & Hall, 1981.

De Clerck, J., A Textbook of Brewing, Chapman & Hall, 1957.


Charlie also published this - which showed similar findings to Briggs, with some differences.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2552/99b3074831c08880ad72ccd67844d2d64adb.pdf

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Thus their home brewing level training (be it ideal or less than ideal) makes the leap to small scale commercial.

Well I'd hardly call Heavy Seas, where their brewer formerly worked, producing 35,000 barrels a year a small scale brewery.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perhaps we specifically need Martin to direct us to where his sources emphatically stated that 5.2 to 5.6 mash pH is to be ideally achieved as measured at room temperature, so we can confirm he didn't just slip that in.

The Bamforth article you referenced is the one where my quote came from.

 

[TheMadKing]

Perhaps we specifically need Martin to direct us to where his sources emphatically stated that 5.2 to 5.6 mash pH is to be ideally achieved as measured at room temperature, so we can confirm he didn't just slip that in.

The Bamforth article you referenced is the one where my quote came from.

I just gave you the references those come from- its the same reference cited by Bamforth

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just gave you the references those come from- its the same reference cited by Bamforth

Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

About 2-3 months ago I emailed Bamforth for clarification on this, but he never responded to my email.

 

[TheMadKing]

Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

I don't have the references so I can't look them up, but seeing as how two separate sources site Briggs as being the source, I think it's probably safe to believe that that's where it comes from. Or do you believe that both Martin and Charlie falsified references?

 

[lump42]

Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

About 2-3 months ago I emailed Bamforth for clarification on this, but he never responded to my email.

"The average initial pH of wort (20°C) is ≈5.3, ranging from 5.0 to 6.0 (43); ale wort is generally lower (pH 5.1) and lager beer slightly higher (pH 5.4–5.7) (3)"
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...tFileKey=5cb4adcb-f322-488b-982f-2b7536a00636

From the references:
3. Anness, B. J., and Bamforth, C. W. (1981). Dimethyl sulphide—A review. J. Inst. Brew. Distill. 88:244-252.
43. Meilgaard, M. (1999). Wort composition. In: The Practical Brewer, pp. 147-164. J. T. McCabe, ed. Master Brewers Association of the Americas, Wauwatosa, WI.

 

[bob1852]

...measured at 20 degrees C...

Bamforth wrote an overview of pH in brewing in 2001 that states:

When searching the literature, the reader should be cautious about the pH values quoted and inferences made about their impact, because the temperature is not always quoted.

I think that even though it may be standard to measure/report pH taken from a 20*C sample, it certainly doesn't seem to be universal...

 

[lump42]

Bamforth wrote an overview of pH in brewing in 2001 that states:

I think that even though it may be standard to measure/report pH taken from a 20*C sample, it certainly doesn't seem to be universal...

Within the fields I've worked in (agricultural science/ plant pathology), it is standard to measure pH at 20C. If the measured temp isn't given, then it is expected that it was measure at 20C

 

[TheMadKing]

Show me where your references say to target 5.2 to 5.6 pH in the mash as measured at 20 degrees C. please.

About 2-3 months ago I emailed Bamforth for clarification on this, but he never responded to my email.

I found this

https://books.google.com/books?id=mROkAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=Briggs+wort+ph&source=bl&ots=9Vq8uO32DZ&sig=ACfU3U3DV5nlSpl45Hbbpj56RZSDsJYcrQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-suXHttHlAhWDmeAKHaChC6gQ6AEwEXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Briggs wort ph&f=false

Page 114 Table 4.9 Optimal pH values for normal isothermal infusion mashes

shows the optimal pH range for a list of outcomes - I would hazard a guess that Martin looked at the needs of homebrewers and settled on 5.2-5.4 @ room temperature as the best hybrid of characteristics to meet the needs of the most people - but that is only a guess

Page 115

"Infusion mashes are best carried out at a pH of 5.2-5.4 (mash temperature) and so will give cooled worts with pH values of about 5.5-5.8."

Which matches with the findings of the OP - and is the pH range for greatest extract obtained (most money savings), not necessarily the best tasting beer.

 

[lump42]

"The average initial pH of wort (20°C) is ≈5.3, ranging from 5.0 to 6.0 (43); ale wort is generally lower (pH 5.1) and lager beer slightly higher (pH 5.4–5.7) (3)"
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...tFileKey=5cb4adcb-f322-488b-982f-2b7536a00636

From the references:
3. Anness, B. J., and Bamforth, C. W. (1981). Dimethyl sulphide—A review. J. Inst. Brew. Distill. 88:244-252.
43. Meilgaard, M. (1999). Wort composition. In: The Practical Brewer, pp. 147-164. J. T. McCabe, ed. Master Brewers Association of the Americas, Wauwatosa, WI.

Anness, B. J., and Bamforth, C. W. (1981). Dimethyl sulphide—A review. J. Inst. Brew. Distill. 88:244-252. can be accessed at: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1982.tb04101.x

"In particular, lager worts are usually of pH 5.4-5.7 compared with ale worts which are typically ca pH 5.1."

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

"The average initial pH of wort (20°C) is ≈5.3, ranging from 5.0 to 6.0 (43); ale wort is generally lower (pH 5.1) and lager beer slightly higher (pH 5.4–5.7) (3)"
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...tFileKey=5cb4adcb-f322-488b-982f-2b7536a00636

If you read this article it is talking (at the quoted juncture) of wort pH's measured just before fermentation is initiated. It is not discussing mash pH. It is discussing post boil and cooling pH. And pH drops during the boil.