Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH ...

[aeviaanah]

Edit

 

[Robert65]

For a hoppy beer without Pilsner malt (or any beer without risk of DMS), dosing at preboil is recommended?

Recommended or possible? In my experience best practice is to acidify before adding kettle finings, so around 10 minutes to knockout, and this is what is supported by the professional literature. But indeed one question raised in this thread is whether there is significant harm in acidification earlier, as apparently this seems more convenient to some (I don't understand why.) I suppose some results will be reported of anyone tries it.

 

[leesmith]

Recommended or possible? In my experience best practice is to acidify before adding kettle finings, so around 10 minutes to knockout, and this is what is supported by the professional literature. But indeed one question raised in this thread is whether there is significant harm in acidification earlier, as apparently this seems more convenient to some (I don't understand why.) I suppose some results will be reported of anyone tries it.

The reason I dose my acid at the beginning of the boil is for control.

I’ll mash out to 170...remove the grain...then hold at 170 until I’ve dosed...taken a measurement and either dose again if needed to hit desired ph or start to raise the temp to boil.

Doing it towards the end when I’ve got hop additions, whirlfloc, and an immersion chiller to set up adds more to juggle.

If your saying there is a benefit to dosing at the end...then I’d be willing to try it.

And I like my beer as do others but that’s neither here nor there being subjective and possibly misguided.

 

[Robert65]

Having a lot to juggle and not having the luxury of testing and adjusting when doing a late addition is one reason why some of us have been working on good ways to predict/ calculate the required acid dose based on preboil pH. I have my own method (in flux) and @Silver_ Is_Money has developed a tool incorporated in Mash Made Easy. Give that a try if you're interested.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Been waiting for someone to post offsets. Guess I’m going to be that guy.

In process pH

Room temp pH

Looks like my offset (@ 140f) is .15. My point being, homebrew dogma is ********.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Looks like the offset from 70 degrees to 155 degrees would be on the order of 0.2 points based upon your meters. A bit lower than I would have anticipated, but still significant. Thanks for posting this!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Not so fast.

 

[dmtaylor]

Calibration status - how recent? These things can drift like mad.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Calibration status - how recent? These things can drift like mad.

Come on now... you know I calibrate religiously.

 

[Bilsch]

This is super interesting!
Thanks Bryan for posting the data.

 

[Robert65]

But, generally greater displacements are not merely homebrew dogma, but attested in the scientific literature -- with the caveat that there is no universal constant (that is the homebrew dogma part,) but that the displacement is influenced by many factors (which homebrewers can't seem to get their heads around.) Would you care to speculate, Bryan, as to whether there might be something about your system that leads to a lesser displacement than is commonly observed? Your system, you'll no doubt admit, does not provide the conditions found in either conventional brewery outfits or laboratory tests.

 

[stevehaun]

Bryan:
At what temp do you calibrate the mash pH probe?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To more properly gauge any individual pH meters inherent pH differential one must use the very same pH meter and measure the pH at two different temperatures (room and mash) with it.

 

[dmtaylor]

To more properly gauge any individual pH meters inherent pH differential one must use the very same pH meter and measure the pH at two different temperatures (room and mash) with it.

I'll agree. The temperature effects are so damned fussy and data so scattered that given Bryan's data points above (and yes I do believe he is a very trustworthy source), now I don't know what the frick to believe anymore. Is the adjustment 0.1, 0.25, 0.18, 0.22, 0.2, 0.17..... who the frick knows. And what's more....... does it even really matter all that much!? That is the ultimate question that will never receive a consistent answer.

Thank you to Bryan for these specific new data points. And yes I'm sure you calibrate like a fiend. Personally I calibrate every time I use the thing, both before and after the brew session, that's what gives me confidence that heck at least I'm trying.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Bryan:
At what temp do you calibrate the mash pH probe?

Room temp.

 

[Die_Beerery]

But, generally greater displacements are not merely homebrew dogma, but attested in the scientific literature -- with the caveat that there is no universal constant (that is the homebrew dogma part,) but that the displacement is influenced by many factors (which homebrewers can't seem to get their heads around.) Would you care to speculate, Bryan, as to whether there might be something about your system that leads to a lesser displacement than is commonly observed? Your system, you'll no doubt admit, does not provide the conditions found in either conventional brewery outfits or laboratory tests.

Well, I highly doubt it. Only thing being I have zero DO. DO does play a role in ORP and redox, which could alter pH, but it should have no effect on differential.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I'll agree. The temperature effects are so damned fussy and data so scattered that given Bryan's data points above (and yes I do believe he is a very trustworthy source), now I don't know what the frick to believe anymore. Is the adjustment 0.1, 0.25, 0.18, 0.22, 0.2, 0.17..... who the frick knows. And what's more....... does it even really matter all that much!? That is the ultimate question that will never receive a consistent answer.

Thank you to Bryan for these specific new data points. And yes I'm sure you calibrate like a fiend. Personally I calibrate every time I use the thing, both before and after the brew session, that's what gives me confidence that heck at least I'm trying.

My meters are anything but. I have solid expensive meters. I can go months with them sitting and do a calibration, and they will be within .01. I still calibrate before every session, and after (since the solution is still out) to make sure nothing went wonky.

The answer for me is... pH is going to track and sway along the range. Chasing that is a fruitless effort. So for me I target a pH at dough in which I know my offset for. My mashes are all the same, with the same grains so for me that’s 131f.
Then 144
147
151
163
170
Upon dough in I target 5.25 mash temp which for me is 5.4 room temp. Once I get into beta pH will shift up a tad to around 5.29, then settle around there. That’s what’s constant for me. What’s not constant is my offset it seems to raise and lower and would be impossible to chase. So for me and my setup. This is what I do.

 

[dmtaylor]

Well, I highly doubt it. Only thing being I have zero DO. DO does play a role in ORP and redox, which could alter pH, but it should have no effect on differential.

I agree, DO or lack thereof should not affect pH, not counting the odd redux things that may be happening in parallel depending on what solution is being measured (plain water vs. wort for example).

Upon dough in I target 5.25 mash temp which for me is 5.4 room temp. Once I get into beta pH will shift up a tad to around 5.29, then settle around there. That’s what’s constant for me. What’s not constant is my offset it seems to raise and lower and would be impossible to chase. So for me and my setup. This is what I do.

THANK YOU. This is the kind of information I've wanted to hear from you. Cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The Weyermann publication titled "pH In The Brewery" offers confirmation as to why it isn't likely the best practice to mash at between 5.2 and 5.6 pH as measured at room temperature. Notice that the principle enzymes of our concern are at their peak of performance at high pH's as measured at their respective optimal temperatures. If we add a pH meter correction factor of 0.25 to better reflect these pH's at room temperature we get 5.65 to 5.85 pH as the optimal range for Beta-Amylase, and 5.85 to 6.05 as the optimal range for Alpha-Amylase. This lends support to the position behind this thread that the "ideal room temperature mash pH range" should be revised upward from the currently accepted 5.2-5.6 pH to 5.5-5.9 pH.

"pH In The Brewery" can be downloaded at this link:
https://aussiedistiller.com.au/books/Whiskyaugogo/Weyermann_TKW_Mash-pH_2010.pdf

 

[ajk]

Fwiw (probably nothing), I’ve mashed at 5.65 (room temperature) for my last four batches instead of my usual 5.4 (room temperature), and my efficiency has suffered a significant hit. Upwards of 5 gravity points. Now, maybe that hit is worth it if it results in better beer. But it sure doesn’t seem like the enzymes are working better *for me*.

I picked the wrong series of beers to test this on (British beers). I might need to try again with Helles to get a real understanding of how beer quality is affected.

Anecdotal and unscientific for sure, but in my brewery, I’m ready to state the higher pH is less efficient (but not necessarily worse for the beer).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Fwiw (probably nothing), I’ve mashed at 5.65 (room temperature) for my last four batches instead of my usual 5.4 (room temperature), and my efficiency has suffered a significant hit. Upwards of 5 gravity points. Now, maybe that hit is worth it if it results in better beer. But it sure doesn’t seem like the enzymes are working better *for me*.

I picked the wrong series of beers to test this on (British beers). I might need to try again with Helles to get a real understanding of how beer quality is affected.

Anecdotal and unscientific for sure, but in my brewery, I’m ready to state the higher pH is less efficient (but not necessarily worse for the beer).

I wouldn't have expected efficiency to decrease. Thanks for sharing this.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Just to provide a different data point....I stopped adjusting the pH of my mash down to ~5.4 using acid. I just use the salts I want and I get a mash pH that settles in around 5.6-5.7 at 20 minutes. Seems to end up at around 5.4-5.5 by the end of a 1 hour mash. All room temp measurements. My efficiency has increased by about 5%. I adjust the kettle pH with acid - using Mash Made Easy to give me the estimates - thank you @Silver_Is_Money!

Edit: forgot to mention that I use tap water, but what comes out of my tap is as close to RO as you will get out of a public water source.

 

[ajk]

Damn, science is a harsh mistress. Thank you, @hopjuice_71, for your report. I guess I'll try going back to 5.4 and seeing if things snap back. Again, we don't want to assume efficiency correlates with better beer, so I guess I won't be convinced until I try this with Helles (my personal pinnacle of styles).

 

[Bilsch]

Fwiw (probably nothing), I’ve mashed at 5.65 (room temperature) for my last four batches instead of my usual 5.4 (room temperature), and my efficiency has suffered a significant hit. Upwards of 5 gravity points. Now, maybe that hit is worth it if it results in better beer. But it sure doesn’t seem like the enzymes are working better *for me*.

You are not alone. Last two batches I shifted up from 5.4 RT to 5.6 and took a 1p hit.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Damn, science is a harsh mistress. Thank you, @hopjuice_71, for your report. I guess I'll try going back to 5.4 and seeing if things snap back. Again, we don't want to assume efficiency correlates with better beer, so I guess I won't be convinced until I try this with Helles (my personal pinnacle of styles).

Indeed it is.. ..and it happens to be my day job, so I have taken a lot of abuse

 

[hopjuice_71]

You are not alone. Last two batches I shifted up from 5.4 RT to 5.6 and took a 1p hit.

Hmm, interesting. Could my gain and others losses have anything to do with type of malt?

 

[doug293cz]

Hmm, interesting. Could my gain and others losses have anything to do with type of malt?

Possibly. I have seen reports that some malts can have higher gelatinization temperatures than other malts. This can affect your conversion efficiency, which then affects mash efficiency, and all other downstream efficiencies. I've been thinking that the way to deal with such malts is to raise the mash temp up to 170°F, and rest for a while, then drop the temp and add alpha amylase to complete conversion. Or, you can just accept the lower eff.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

wrt pH 5.8 - isn't that verging on the threshold of releasing tannins from husks, especially given the duration [edit: and temperature] of a typical mash?

Cheers!

[tried to catch up on this thread, realized this was only the second use of the word "tannin" in the entire thread.]

 

[doug293cz]

wrt pH 5.8 - isn't that verging on the threshold of releasing tannins from husks, especially given the duration [edit: and temperature] of a typical mash?

Cheers!

Might be. The rate limiting step in saccharification is the gelatinization of the starch granules. Once the starch is gelatinized, the hydrolysis, catalyzed by the amylase enzymes, is pretty fast. I have not seen anything that says pH affects the gelatinization rate, but then I haven't looked. IMO optimizing pH for amylase activity is not what needs to be addressed to improve conversion efficiency. The previous has nothing to do with pH affects on beer flavor.

Brew on

 

[hopjuice_71]

....The previous has nothing to do with pH affects on beer flavor.

Agreed. Maybe I have just been lucky with my non-optimization of mash pH and an increase in efficiency. However, my beer has improved by adjustment of the kettle pH with acid.

 

[Robert65]

The best index for gelatinization temperature is the Hartong VZ 45°C on the COA. The lower this number, the higher the gelatinization temperature. Here's a graph from a well known article from Brauwelt International:

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The best index for gelatinization temperature is the Hartong VZ 45°C on the COA. The lower this number, the higher the gelatinization temperature.

That information for base malts seemingly might make a great guide for choosing a single infusion mash temperature target. Is it available from all maltsters? My problem here is that I generally purchase only enough malt to do a batch, and the malt often comes from bulk bins with zero attached analytical info.

As you are reasonably well known for mashing at a higher target pH than most, might you offer us some insight into the benefit(s) you perceive in so doing?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

wrt pH 5.8 - isn't that verging on the threshold of releasing tannins from husks, especially given the duration [edit: and temperature] of a typical mash?

I've mentioned a few times within this and other threads that if Stan Hieronymus, the author of 'Brew Like A Monk' is correct, the Rochefort Monastery brewery in Belgium intentionally mashes at pH 5.8 to 5.9 pH. As I recall, their waters alkalinity is in the ballpark of 160 ppm, and they only acidify (targeting pH 5.2) post mash and pre-boil.

 

[dmtaylor]

Since increasing my pH to 5.5-5.6, over 3 out of the last 4 batches, I've had an average efficiency of 71%, just about my lowest ever, except for my brown ale which had 88% -- odd fluke!? Perhaps the darker malts lowered the pH when I wasn't looking? This last Sunday I just mashed a Kolsch-style at pH 5.65 (actually measured 5.4 @ mash temp 149 F), that's the highest I think I've ever gone, and my brewhouse efficiency was 70%. I also tasted the wort, and it seemed remarkably insipid and boring compared to any other wort. But I'm fermenting it as-is to see how it all turns out in the end. My other beers turned out mediocre at best... except the brown ale won a gold medal. Coincidence?! I dunno yet.

So, I must say, I'm not really liking this higher pH thing as much as I'd expected. But will continue to toy with it. I think also I might try extending my mash time from 45 minutes to perhaps 75 minutes, to see if that helps much.

 

[Robert65]

That information for base malts seemingly might make a great guide for choosing a single infusion mash temperature target. Is it available from all maltsters? My problem here is that I generally purchase only enough malt to do a batch, and the malt often comes from bulk bins with zero attached analytical info.

As you are reasonably well known for mashing at a higher target pH than most, might you offer us some insight into the benefit(s) you perceive in so doing?

Recently, I've actually been mashing lower again. This is because I do low oxygen brewing, and I've added a lower temperature rest to accommodate a less well modified malt; as I'm now mashing in below the temperature for denaturation of LOX, the lower pH is another tool for suppressing LOX activity. (One of the factors Kunze takes into consideration I determining optimal pH.) I can't say I've seen any significant hit on efficiency, but rather an increase -- but I attribute this to the temperature program, which I specifically intended to address the higher glucan level of the particular malt. Anecdotally at this point (N = very low) I think I'm getting more dramatic hot breaks (egg drop soup,) but I don't see a difference in the quality of the chilled wort vis-à-vis fining performance, as long as the pH at knockout is in the same range (5.0-5.2.)

It may be that there is no one size fits all answer to optimize pH any more than any other parameter. Everything must be tailored to the malt, and to the specific goals we prioritize.

As for the numbers on a COA, different maltsters provide more or less complete reports. The Hartong VZ 45°C ought to be always reported, but that doesn't mean that it is. BSG's website has a tool for getting lot analyses of any products they distribute based on the lot number on the sack. I buy base malts by the sack, but if you don't, and it's a BSG-distributed product, perhaps your shop could note and provide the identifying information off the sack. Tracking this, it can be astonishing how much lot to lot variation there can be in some parameters in an "identical" malt.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Since increasing my pH to 5.5-5.6, over 3 out of the last 4 batches, I've had an average efficiency of 71%, just about my lowest ever, except for my brown ale which had 88% -- odd fluke!? Perhaps the darker malts lowered the pH when I wasn't looking? This last Sunday I just mashed a Kolsch-style at pH 5.65 (actually measured 5.4 @ mash temp 149 F), that's the highest I think I've ever gone, and my brewhouse efficiency was 70%. I also tasted the wort, and it seemed remarkably insipid and boring compared to any other wort. But I'm fermenting it as-is to see how it all turns out in the end. My other beers turned out mediocre at best... except the brown ale won a gold medal. Coincidence?! I dunno yet.

So, I must say, I'm not really liking this higher pH thing as much as I'd expected. But will continue to toy with it. I think also I might try extending my mash time from 45 minutes to perhaps 75 minutes, to see if that helps much.

Are you adjusting the Wort pH to 5.0-5.2 just before boiling?

 

[stevehaun]

The Weyermann publication titled "pH In The Brewery" offers confirmation as to why it isn't likely the best practice to mash at between 5.2 and 5.6 pH as measured at room temperature. Notice that the principle enzymes of our concern are at their peak of performance at high pH's as measured at their respective optimal temperatures. If we add a pH meter correction factor of 0.25 to better reflect these pH's at room temperature we get 5.65 to 5.85 pH as the optimal range for Beta-Amylase, and 5.85 to 6.05 as the optimal range for Alpha-Amylase. This lends support to the position behind this thread that the "ideal room temperature mash pH range" should be revised upward from the currently accepted 5.2-5.6 pH to 5.5-5.9 pH.

I would guess (I have not read the original papers) that pH optima for both beta and alpha amylase were determined in the laboratory using purified enzymes at a specified temperature as this is how enzymes are studied. In the lab, all pH readings are typically done at near room temp. I don't think adding the mash temp pH offset to these values makes sense. These pH optima were not determined in a mash.

 

[dmtaylor]

Are you adjusting the Wort pH to 5.0-5.2 just before boiling?

I have not. I will play with that on future batches.

 

[cire]

I've mentioned a few times within this and other threads that if Stan Hieronymus, the author of 'Brew Like A Monk' is correct, the Rochefort Monastery brewery in Belgium intentionally mashes at pH 5.8 to 5.9 pH. As I recall, their waters alkalinity is in the ballpark of 160 ppm, and they only acidify (targeting pH 5.2) post mash and pre-boil.

It would be a surprise if the Trappistes Rochefort 10 I recently drank was mashed as high as pH 5.8, it was just too smooth and sweet.

My studies into water treatment began when pH 5.3 was the accepted target and some of my dark beers were found to mash at 5.8. pH 5.6 is the highest I presently allow runnings to reach.

The Rochefort beer tasted strongly of dark crystal and the ingredients listed on the bottle are; water, malted barley, sugar, wheat starch, yeast, hop. 11.3% alcohol by volume with advised serving temperature of 12-14C (54-57F), it tasted like the grist had a good 15% dark crystal. It also had the body of a beer from good levels of both calcium and chloride that altogether suggest it would naturally mash at <pH 5.8 even with alkalinity of 160ppm.

The beer is worth buying, very nice.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Possibly. I have seen reports that some malts can have higher gelatinization temperatures than other malts. This can affect your conversion efficiency, which then affects mash efficiency, and all other downstream efficiencies. I've been thinking that the way to deal with such malts is to raise the mash temp up to 170°F, and rest for a while, then drop the temp and add alpha amylase to complete conversion. Or, you can just accept the lower eff.

Brew on

Say what now????????? Thats joking right?!?