Yeast Starter vs. Double Pitch

[lmd]

I am a new allgrain brewer and am looking to make bigger beers. I just brewed a Belgian Golden Strong ale and I double pitched instead of making a starter. The reason why I didnt make a starter is that I cant think a day or two in advance to make one.

Is there a difference between the two methods?

 

[aiptasia]

Not really. Other than the expense of buying extra packets/tubes of yeast, there's not much difference. They both amount to the same thing, which is to pitch more yeast on the wort.

 

[mdgagne]

I am a new allgrain brewer and am looking to make bigger beers. I just brewed a Belgian Golden Strong ale and I double pitched instead of making a starter. The reason why I didnt make a starter is that I cant think a day or two in advance to make one.

Is there a difference between the two methods?

With a 1 liter starter on a stir plate and 1 vial of yeast you're probably going to grow a bigger cell count than pitching two vials. If you're working on really large beers, Barley Wine for example, two vials of yeast isn't enough.

Check out mrmalty.com or yeastcalc.com to see what I mean.

In terms of quality, I don't think much is the same between pitching multiple vials vs pitching a starter besides being sure that the yeast you pitch from the start is viable.

 

[tre9er]

It's all about cell counts, so no, technically there is no difference other than cost. Woodlandbrew has an interesting concept though of pitching into a portion of the wort, waiting 24-48 hours, then combining the wort together. Perhaps he will chime in here.

 

[lpdjshaw]

One vial in a TWO liter starter will roughly double your yeast count, one vial in a one liter starter will give about 50% increase in yeast cells. Chances are, even with recently expired vials, that your yeast is going to be good/viable but with a starter you know for sure. Also, pitching your starter at high kraisen will generally get you wort fermenting sooner.

 

[maida7]

it all depends... How old is the yeast, how big a starter, stir plate? etc...

 

[tre9er]

One vial in a TWO liter starter will roughly double your yeast count, one vial in a one liter starter will give about 50% increase in yeast cells. Chances are, even with recently expired vials, that your yeast is going to be good/viable but with a starter you know for sure. Also, pitching your starter at high kraisen will generally get you wort fermenting sooner.

Actually a 1L starter on a stir-plate should more than double your cell count. But maybe you meant with no aeration/agitation? That would be correct in about a 50% increase there.

 

[lmd]

But I would still need to do all of this in advance, before brew day. Is there any way to make starter day of and pitch when the wort is sooled down and aerated?

 

[maida7]

But I would still need to do all of this in advance, before brew day. Is there any way to make starter day of and pitch when the wort is sooled down and aerated?

It takes about 24hrs for the starter to do it's thing. Is it really that hard to plan on brewing 24hrs in advance?

 

[lmd]

24hrs in advance, I can handle unless I go to the lhbs on the day of the brew..

 

[Kaiser]

Woodlandbrew has an interesting concept though of pitching into a portion of the wort, waiting 24-48 hours, then combining the wort together. Perhaps he will chime in here.

I wrote about this here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen

and it works well for me.

As for yeast growth, my research has shown that 100B cells can be grown from about 70g of DME. that's less than $1 for 100B more cells.

Kai

 

[tre9er]

I wrote about this here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen

and it works well for me.

As for yeast growth, my research has shown that 100B cells can be grown from about 70g of DME. that's less than $1 for 100B more cells.

Kai

Thanks Kai. I've seen you interact with Dave (Woodlandbrew) on his site. Love having your expertise present.

 

[Kaiser]

Thanks Kai. I've seen you interact with Dave (Woodlandbrew) on his site. Love having your expertise present.

Thanks. I thought his name is Steve.

Kai

 

[tre9er]

Thanks. I thought his name is Steve.

Kai

That's what I meant! haha! Both end in 've', gimme a break

 

[winvarin]

I always assume that pitching rate is the key. If I use a calculator that tells me I need x billion cells, then I don't care how I get them, starter, multiple vials/packs, whatever.

Once you know you're achieving a properly sized pitch, then the other factors come into play. Viability, sometimes I will take that gamble. If the yeast is from a reliable source and has a fresh date, I will often double pitch instead of growing a starter, just for the sake of convenience.

Price? Sometimes that comes into play.

The beer's purpose? If it is for a day to day house beer, I am a little more likely to roll the dice on viability than I would be for a beer I have targeted for a special occasion or a contest.

 

[tre9er]

I always assume that pitching rate is the key. If I use a calculator that tells me I need x billion cells, then I don't care how I get them, starter, multiple vials/packs, whatever.

Once you know you're achieving a properly sized pitch, then the other factors come into play. Viability, sometimes I will take that gamble. If the yeast is from a reliable source and has a fresh date, I will often double pitch instead of growing a starter, just for the sake of convenience.

Price? Sometimes that comes into play.

The beer's purpose? If it is for a day to day house beer, I am a little more likely to roll the dice on viability than I would be for a beer I have targeted for a special occasion or a contest.

All true statements in my mind. Oxygenation is another factor, too.

 

[TyTanium]

I have observed a difference in yeast straight from the lab vs. repitches/later generations. The 2+ generation yeast always seems to perform better and has a more robust fermentation, independent of pitch rate/cell count. I think this was also mentioned in the yeast book.

So I have to believe stepping up a starter is better than buying multiple yeast packs. Obviously cell count is important, but these are living active organisms so their health, energy stores, etc are also critical.

 

[Kaiser]

I have noticed that older cultures grow don't perform as well as fresh cultures and think that a starter does make a difference even if you don't end up growing much yeast. It may actually be such that a cell with full reserves is better than 2 cells that are running on empty and have to consume more nutrients before they can start budding.

Kai

 

[maida7]

I have observed a difference in yeast straight from the lab vs. repitches/later generations. The 2+ generation yeast always seems to perform better and has a more robust fermentation, independent of pitch rate/cell count. I think this was also mentioned in the yeast book.

So I have to believe stepping up a starter is better than buying multiple yeast packs. Obviously cell count is important, but these are living active organisms so their health, energy stores, etc are also critical.

Would this hold true with WLP300? Does it produce the desired ester profile generation after generation?

 

[Felixio]

I've heard conflicting statements. Is it better to pitch a starter at high Kraeusen or let it finish fermenting, cold crash, decant, and pitch the starter's trub?

It seems to me that the option to cold-crash would mean that you have to think several more days in advance, but it would also give you a 3 day window to pitch the yeast or do something with it.

 

[maida7]

I've heard conflicting statements. Is it better to pitch a starter at high Kraeusen or let it finish fermenting, cold crash, decant, and pitch the starter's trub?

It seems to me that the option to cold-crash would mean that you have to think several more days in advance, but it would also give you a 3 day window to pitch the yeast or do something with it.

For the yeast I would think high krausen is best. but... That means you are adding the spent starter wort to your batch. If the starter is very big it may be better to decant that spent starter wort so it doesn't effect the flavor of the batch of beer you are making.

 

[TyTanium]

Both are fine.

BEST is to pitch actively fermenting yeast, so often I'll make a starter but not put it on a stir plate, and I'll use an airlock, goal isn't to grow yeast, it's to get the yeast active...I treat it like I'm making beer so I'm not pitching an oxidized starter.

But yeast that has just finished fermenting and gone dormant, but is still fresh, will perform almost just as well I think.

It's the stuff that's been in your fridge for 6 months that a starter makes a huge difference.

 

[TyTanium]

Would this hold true with WLP300? Does it produce the desired ester profile generation after generation?

Yes, if you treat it well. I top crop and keep reusing, but have never gone above 5 or 6 gens.

 

[tre9er]

I *think* ideally if there were a way to harvest the yeast from the starter wort, when at high krausen, you'd have the best of all worlds. If you had constant fermentations taking place you could always top-crop, of course.

 

[tre9er]

Yes, if you treat it well. I top crop and keep reusing, but have never gone above 5 or 6 gens.

Ty, are you taking the middle layer, first skimming the dirt? I really want to start top-cropping but just haven't taken the plunge. What tool do you use to get the yeast out of the FV?

 

[maida7]

Yes, if you treat it well. I top crop and keep reusing, but have never gone above 5 or 6 gens.

So if I start with a fresh tube of wlp300, make a starter on a stirplate and pitch that at high krausen, I should have very good results?

 

[winvarin]

All true statements in my mind. Oxygenation is another factor, too.

Forgot to mention that. I went with temp controlled fermentation and bought an O2 set up at the same time a few years ago. The quality of my beers leapt forward exponentially almost overnight

 

[TyTanium]

Ty, are you taking the middle layer, first skimming the dirt? I really want to start top-cropping but just haven't taken the plunge. What tool do you use to get the yeast out of the FV?

I used to skim & toss the first brown goopy krausen, then collect the clean krausen that reforms. But recently I've just let it sit and have found the krausen clears on it's own. So I'll skim off the fluffy, foamy sticky krausen into a mason jar. I use a mesh skimmer:

I tried the yeast rinsing/washing thing a few times, but it just felt like too much work to me, esp. after bottling a full batch. Top cropping is fast, easy, simple and you get fresh, awesome yeast.

 

[tre9er]

I used to skim & toss the first brown goopy krausen, then collect the clean krausen that reforms. But recently I've just let it sit and have found the krausen clears on it's own. So I'll skim off the fluffy, foamy sticky krausen into a mason jar. I use a mesh skimmer:

I tried the yeast rinsing/washing thing a few times, but it just felt like too much work to me, esp. after bottling a full batch. Top cropping is fast, easy, simple and you get fresh, awesome yeast.

Sorry to hijack, so you just take most/all of it off the top after it's knocked itself down a bit? Any chance you have a thread or know of one that describes your process? Or is it really that simple?

 

[TyTanium]

So if I start with a fresh tube of wlp300, make a starter on a stirplate and pitch that at high krausen, I should have very good results?

Yes. Assuming your cell count is somewhat close to what you need. (see yeastcalc.com). You'll also get good results if you do your starter ahead of time, chill it, decant the starter wort, and pitch the slurry. Both methods are great.

I usually only do the "pitch the whole starter" thing if I have older slurry where the cell count is high enough but it's been in the fridge for a while; in that case the starter is not to grow more cells, it's just to wake them up. In that case I'm not constantly aerating the starter so I'm not pitching oxidized starter wort into my beer.