Yeast Starter Smell

[melloweyelids]

Hey There Ya'll,

I am getting ready to brew my 3rd batch. The yeast was approaching its "expiration" date of 4 months after manufacture. It has been in my fridge for a couple months. Independence A15 Ale yeast. I made a starter using a Propper can. I sanitized everything but the propper can top (I forgot). Starter has been on a stir plate all night. Might have pitched the yeast starter at too high of a temperature, around 76 degrees. When I checked this morning it has a slight apple cider, slightly sour, perhaps slightly vinegary smell. I don't have the best olfactory sense so I can't quite narrow it down. Mostly apple cider smell I would say. I tasted a small amount and it seems to taste fine; slight apple cider taste maybe. Went down a small rabbit hole and got some conflicting information, ranging from "its fine" to "possibly infected." I am guessing it is fine but want to see what ya'll thing? Might be hard to get feedback since you obviously can't smell it yourselves. The starter also seems less active with less krausen than my last starter (made with Omega West Coast Ale I). Do you think this starter is okay to use? Or should I abandon ship? What are the chances it infects my batch? I don't want to do a whole brew day for nothing. But I suppose that is how it goes sometimes. I attached a picture of the starter if it helps. Picture is about 11 hours after pitching and starting it on the spin plate.

The brew is going to be a partial mash pale ale. 1.050 OG. 5.0% target alcohol when finished.

My only other option is to use a refrigerated bag of Omega West Coast Ale I. However, this bag arrived slight warm and swollen. Manufacture date is June 18. However, if I were to use this, I would not have time for a starter.

I took the day off work to brew, so my options are as follows:

1. Run with my yeast starter as is.
2. Pitch my Omega West Coast Ale I yeast despite it being 3 months from manufacture and arriving slightly warm and swollen (no time for a starter)
3. Call off the brew day altogether.

Any and all advice is appreciated. Still reading some other posts, but figured I would make my own thread in the meantime.

 

[wepeeler]

Loaded question! Your starter does look ok to the naked eye, but since we can't see these microscopic beasts, I'd err on the side of caution. Some yeast does have a slightly apple cider vinegary aroma, BUT my last Kolsch yeast starter smelled that way, and I dumped it. The next starter from a fresh package of yeast did not have that aroma. I hear you loud and clear on not wanting to waste a brew day and end up with sub-par beer. The refrigerated pack that swelled a little is probably just fine to pitch, but why not spin up another starter with that one? Postpone brew day a day or two and feel more confident in the final product. That's my 2 cents. (Google often returns info ranging from "perfectly fine" to "dump it". I'm just going by personal experience!

 

[melloweyelids]

Loaded question! Your starter does look ok to the naked eye, but since we can't see these microscopic beasts, I'd err on the side of caution. Some yeast does have a slightly apple cider vinegary aroma, BUT my last Kolsch yeast starter smelled that way, and I dumped it. The next starter from a fresh package of yeast did not have that aroma. I hear you loud and clear on not wanting to waste a brew day and end up with sub-par beer. The refrigerated pack that swelled a little is probably just fine to pitch, but why not spin up another starter with that one? Postpone brew day a day or two and feel more confident in the final product. That's my 2 cents. (Google often returns info ranging from "perfectly fine" to "dump it". I'm just going by personal experience!

I took today off work to brew. Would feel like a waste of a day off to not follow through. But so would brewing a bad batch. I think I might just try to pitch the refrigerated pack and hope for the best. Maybe others will chime in before I get started. Appreciate your input!

 

[wepeeler]

I took today off work to brew. Would feel like a waste of a day off to not follow through. But so would brewing a bad batch. I think I might just try to pitch the refrigerated pack and hope for the best. Maybe others will chime in before I get started. Appreciate your input!

You'd be perfectly fine pitching the refrigerated pack in a 1.050 beer, as long as you make sure to warm it up to room temp first! Omega gives you 50% more yeast per pack.

 

[melloweyelids]

You'd be perfectly fine pitching the refrigerated pack in a 1.050 beer, as long as you make sure to warm it up to room temp first! Omega gives you 50% more yeast per pack.

Thanks. I have a 1 year old and time is scarce right now. Gotta use the day while I have it. Appreciate your help dude!

 

[BeerNsteadofH2O]

My .02- it's the reason I keep a few packets of dry S04,So5 , WLP 001 in the fridge, Having those on hand can save the day when in doubt.

 

[Deadalus]

Picture looks normal.

If you pitched it at 76 and it was that temp up til now, it's going to behave as the yeast would if pitched and fermented at 76 into a batch. This would include perhaps some off flavors and or smells. So chill and decant before using.

I don't always remember to starsan the yeast pack but have not had any specific issues afterwards.

 

[Deadalus]

"Independence is the strain for bringing some new character into your hop-driven beers. Higher in esters than Flagship, this yeast will give some fruity character.. While it shines in hoppy ales, Independence is a great all-purpose strain and will also work well in stouts and English ales."

 

[Deadalus]

Fermentation range-Min temp is 60 and max is 72. At 76, it was simply producing esters I'd say.

 

[melloweyelids]

My .02- it's the reason I keep a few packets of dry S04,So5 , WLP 001 in the fridge, Having those on hand can save the day when in doubt.

Good advice. Will be doing this moving forward.

Picture looks normal.

If you pitched it at 76 and it was that temp up til now, it's going to behave as the yeast would if pitched and fermented at 76 into a batch. This would include perhaps some off flavors and or smells. So chill and decant before using.

I don't always remember to starsan the yeast pack but have not had any specific issues afterwards.

What do you think about using the refrigerated yeast that I have without a starter instead? Would I be better off going that route or using this starter? Probably not a question you can really answer confidently.

I just saw your new message. Are esters associated with an apple cider vinegar smell? I had looked up the yeast and it said to expect citrus contributions, which is why the apple cider threw me off. Anyway, I am still new at this and I appreciate your help!

 

[Deadalus]

Yes, I have seen apple used in ester descriptions. I haven't used that yeast, so I had to look to see its specs but it saying it produces esters was very encouraging. I would use the starter.

I would not use the swelled pack without making a starter but I wouldn't switch even if the west coast arrived normally. I think perhaps your west coast might be partially dead because it was swollen. I'd make a starter for it ahead of time and have an option ready if the west coast was dead completely.

 

[melloweyelids]

Yes, I have seen apple used in ester descriptions. I haven't used that yeast, so I had to look to see its specs but it saying it produces esters was very encouraging. I would use the starter.

I would not use the swelled pack without making a starter but I wouldn't switch even if the west coast arrived normally. I think perhaps your west coast might be partially dead because it was swollen. I'd make a starter for it ahead of time and have an option ready if the west coast was dead completely.

Thanks. Going to try and do this. Question: How long should it take the starter to separate once I put it in the fridge? It was at 76 degrees when I put it in the fridge a couple hours ago. Maybe I am expecting too much. If it doesn't separate should I pitch the whole thing? Or is that inadvisable given the smell?

Depending on when my brew finishes, there may be the possibility of driving an hour away to a home brew store to get some more yeast. Although this may not be possible. Gotta be home when the wife and kid return. Is there any harm in letting the wort sit in an airlocked carboy for a couple hours before pitching?

 

[VTMongoose]

Thanks. Going to try and do this. Question: How long should it take the starter to separate once I put it in the fridge? It was at 76 degrees when I put it in the fridge a couple hours ago. Maybe I am expecting too much. If it doesn't separate should I pitch the whole thing? Or is that inadvisable given the smell?

It depends on the strain. Some flocculate overnight. Some strains don't flocculate hardly at all even with very long conditioning times. I would not use the starter if it smells bad to you. It's normal for starters to smell fruity but not acetic like I think you are describing. I would pitch the refrigerated pack and wait two days and see if it takes off. If not, obtain another pitch of yeast, any ale strain, from somewhere local to at least ferment it out and not have it go to waste. At this point in the day I'm assuming you already made the wort.

 

[melloweyelids]

It depends on the strain. Some flocculate overnight. Some strains don't flocculate hardly at all even with very long conditioning times. I would not use the starter if it smells bad to you. It's normal for starters to smell fruity but not acetic like I think you are describing. I would pitch the refrigerated pack and wait two days and see if it takes off. If not, obtain another pitch of yeast, any ale strain, from somewhere local to at least ferment it out and not have it go to waste. At this point in the day I'm assuming you already made the wort.

Wort is currently boiling. Thanks for the advice! Kinda torn, but this seems like the safest option. I just did a back to back comparison of my starter and some apple cider vinegar that I found in my pantry. It doesn't have as much vinegar smell as I might have been making out. Mostly an apple juice smell, with maybe a touch of cider. Still, could be risky...

Thanks for the help!

 

[Deadalus]

It won't separate a lot, an overnight chill works better. The yeast won't fully flocculate the shorter the cooling period on brewday after putting it in tbe fridge at high krausen or still fairly active. I do it this way somewhat frequently (Method 1). It's typically recommended this way, but I also just let the yeast finish, flocculate, and then I chill or not. Most times chill. Then decant. The suggested times vary somewhat for Method 1. What you probably will see is a clearer band, a cloudy band and a yeast layer on the bottom. If using Method 1, your way, I will decant off the clearer section. The yeast are in the cloudy section still and below. Years ago, I never decanted, and I don't feel like there was anything noticeable. Arguably, for an ale yeast starter at 70F, shouldn't be issues in flavor. I also brewed lagers that way however. Perhaps there were off flavors.

Whether you decide to use it ir not, I've been using liquid yeast since the late 90s, with roughly 15 years of brewing experience as I took a break. I do think I know the smell, which I think is amplified by the moisture from the active fermentation in the neck. Given the yeast you are using, I don't think you have an infection. Of course, will you be temperature controlling the ferment? If no, a full batch at room temperature will also produce heat. Sometimes the esters are desirable, sometimes not, but from the description, their production is noted. Expect a 2-4 degree rise from active fermentation.

 

[melloweyelids]

I am attempting to control the temperature the best I can. I have a Cool Brewing Bag and for my previous brew, a Pliney clone, I used a few frozen liter bottles to bring the temp down. Did a soft crash by putting more in. Anyway, I control the temp this way to a reasonable degree. Will upgrade setup as time and wallet allow. I will be doing that this time as well.

I think I am leaning towards going for it. Fingers crossed. Will update.

 

[Bobby_M]

You made a starter on the warm side so it's throwing esters and the cidery thing is likely residual acetaldehyde which is normal for something that just fermented. I would use it.

 

[VTMongoose]

You made a starter on the warm side so it's throwing esters and the cidery thing is likely residual acetaldehyde which is normal for something that just fermented. I would use it.

I agree with Bobby based on your last post. It's just esters. Toss it in. Some of them will carry over into the final beer but some of them will also blow out the airlock.