Yeast starter noon question

[Ironbike1]

I've been brewing for over a year now and never get a full solid fermentation so I want to start doing a starter. I bought a stir plate and 2000ml flask.
My question is this. I'm a small batch Brewer and typically use one packet of dry yeast or one smack pack to ferment 2-3 gallon batches. With the starter am I going to use the same amount of yeast to pitch into my wort?
Also I heard a good baseline to get a gravity of 1.040 for the starter is 2 cups water and 1/2 cup light dme create my wort for the yeast starter, is that a good starting point for my 2-3 gallons? Finally with the stir plate I've seen a bunch of ways to do it. I'd the easiest way to just put the starter on the plate 12-24 hrs before I need to pitch it into my finished wort on brew day?
Thanks

 

[Redlantern]

I use the beersmith calculator for starter volume.

Will put the starter on the plate three days out and let fermentation complete and yeast settle. Next is to crash in the fridge. Let it stay there until about an hour before brewing starts and then set it on the counter.

At time to pitch, I place a magnet on the bottom of the flask to hold the pill in place, pour off the excess liquid in the sink then then pitch.

I am a little paranoid about bad yeast and doing it this way builds in a lot of reaction time, plus there is one thing less to do on brew day.

 

[Morrey]

I've been brewing for over a year now and never get a full solid fermentation so I want to start doing a starter. I bought a stir plate and 2000ml flask.
My question is this. I'm a small batch Brewer and typically use one packet of dry yeast or one smack pack to ferment 2-3 gallon batches. With the starter am I going to use the same amount of yeast to pitch into my wort?
Also I heard a good baseline to get a gravity of 1.040 for the starter is 2 cups water and 1/2 cup light dme create my wort for the yeast starter, is that a good starting point for my 2-3 gallons? Finally with the stir plate I've seen a bunch of ways to do it. I'd the easiest way to just put the starter on the plate 12-24 hrs before I need to pitch it into my finished wort on brew day?
Thanks

You are on a good path with your plan. I have a 2000ml flask and I have found Fast Pitch from NB to be a simple solution...or you can certainly prepare a starter wort just as you mentioned. Your DME to water ratio is about what I've used before.

I use a full pack/vial of WL liquid yeast in 32 ounces of Fast Pitch starter wort for my 5 gallon brew. Again, your starter wort recipe is fine. Mix on a starter plate with a strong vortex for 24 hours. I don't decant the wort off the yeast, I simply pour in the whole thing minus the stir bar...lol. To cut back on your yeast starter for a 3 gallon batch is likely not important and I would use the entire smack pack. It won't hurt for your yeast cell count to be high as the yeast will drop out anyway. You will be surprised at the speed and vigor you'll see in your fermentation.

 

[stratslinger]

I've been brewing for over a year now and never get a full solid fermentation so I want to start doing a starter. I bought a stir plate and 2000ml flask.
My question is this. I'm a small batch Brewer and typically use one packet of dry yeast or one smack pack to ferment 2-3 gallon batches. With the starter am I going to use the same amount of yeast to pitch into my wort?
Also I heard a good baseline to get a gravity of 1.040 for the starter is 2 cups water and 1/2 cup light dme create my wort for the yeast starter, is that a good starting point for my 2-3 gallons? Finally with the stir plate I've seen a bunch of ways to do it. I'd the easiest way to just put the starter on the plate 12-24 hrs before I need to pitch it into my finished wort on brew day?
Thanks

Couple things:

First off, with 2-3 gallon batches, if you use a dry packet of yeast (I'm assuming the typical-size sachet of US-05 or the like), there's no need to pitch multiple packets or do starters - unless you're brewing pretty intensely high gravity brews, one rehydrated packet will do. Pitching dry, supposedly, can kill off half of your yeast cells - but properly hydrated, you're pitching a LOT of cells into that smallish volume. (I should also add that there's a lot of debate whether starters are even beneficial for dry yeast!)

Secondly, if you are going to do a starter (for liquid strains that are either old, or that you need more than 80-100billion cells to ferment according to the calculators mentioned in previous posts), go with the rule of 10: 1000mL water (1L) to 100mL of DME. Go by weight of DME, not volume, since that will typically be a much more precise measurement. And give that starter a full 24 hours - a good stirred starter will chew through starter wort in 24 hours. Give yourself a little extra time (maybe another 12 hours?) if you plan to cold crash and decant off much of that starter wort.

Thirdly (and I probably should have led with this) - what problem are you trying to fix with this? Is it just that you haven't had a violent-looking ferment? If so - don't worry about it. If you're having fermentation-related off flavors, or your beers aren't attenuating the way you expect, that's when to examine pitching rates. But if the yeast is doing it's thing and giving you properly attenuated, good tasting beer, leave it alone!

 

[Ironbike1]

My ipas and pale ales seem to have an off flavor very strong at times. I usually use liquid yeast but I do use dry packets from time to time.
Even with rehydrated yeast and the smack packs my fermentation send lack luster

 

[eadavis80]

My ipas and pale ales seem to have an off flavor very strong at times. I usually use liquid yeast but I do use dry packets from time to time.
Even with rehydrated yeast and the smack packs my fermentation send lack luster

When you say the fermentation is having issues are you having a high FG or are there off flavors? With 2-3 gallon batches, one packet of dry yeast or a smack pack should be MORE than enough yeast. So, I guess if you're having off flavors, that might be more due to a bad fermentation TEMPERATURE rather than not having an ample amount of yeast.

 

[Ironbike1]

I've had a couple batches with a diacetyl scent and flavor, mostly ipas and pale ale. My fermentation tanks stay around 60-65

 

[Ironbike1]

Also issues with reaching FG

 

[stratslinger]

For each of those issues, which yeast strains did you use, and how long did you give them to reach OG and/or clean up things like diacetyl? Some strains (Ringwood!) are notorious for diacetyl.

And what you're pitching really shouldn't have an issue reaching FG - unless you're not giving them long enough, or you're hitting this 1.020 wall I keep reading about with some extracts (I never personally experienced that while brewing with extract). If you're doing all grain, you could be mashing too warm too (I've had a couple of thermometers give me bad readings that I swore were right until I finally got around to validating them).

 

[Ironbike1]

I usually use safale s05 but lately I've been using wyeast slap packs. I only brew all grain. My typical fermentation times are usually 14-16 days depending on style, you think maybe I'm not letting them ferment or long enough?

 

[jekeane]

Can you attach a temperature probe to the fermenter itself? It would give you a better idea of the actual temperature. You want to be aiming for 66-68 for 05 and many ale yeasts in my experience.

 

[Ironbike1]

That might explain my off flavors. I'll have to wrap the fermenters up

 

[stratslinger]

With the pitch you should be giving them that way, 14-16 days should be OK - it probably couldn't hurt to go a little longer, but that should do it.

A couple questions:
1) How are you determining that fermentation is complete? Time table only? Hydrometer tests? Refractometer tests?
2) Are you fermenting at temperatures appropriate to each yeast strain? I've personally fermented Wyeast ESB just a little too cool once before, and it definitely underattenuated.

 

[stratslinger]

Also - can you describe the off flavors? If we know more accurately what you're picking up, someone may be able to better diagnose it.

 

[Ironbike1]

My off flavors are buttery notes and smell. I'm assuming it's diacetyl. I ferment all my beer at 60-65 degrees. I do not have a fermentation chamber. As far a knowing when it's done fermenting I usually pull a small sample.

 

[kombat]

How are you aerating/oxygenating your beers?

 

[stratslinger]

My off flavors are buttery notes and smell. I'm assuming it's diacetyl. I ferment all my beer at 60-65 degrees. I do not have a fermentation chamber. As far a knowing when it's done fermenting I usually pull a small sample.

For most american yeast strains (actually, for most non-Saison strains) those are pretty good temperatures.

Can you be more specific on your process for checking fermentation is done? Are you only taking a single sample on a single day? What tool are you using to measure? Like for me: when I'm trying to do a brew on a timeline (I usually leave them in the fermenter for 3-4 weeks, at which point damn near everything is done and I really only need one sample), I'll take a sample and test with a hydrometer, then repeat that process 2 nights later. If both results match, it's done. If the second is lower than the first, it's an indicator that fermentation isn't complete and the yeast just need more time. If the first is lower than the second, you've got some kind of black magic beer going on.

On the buttery notes - 2 things:
1) Are you using large proportions of Crystal malts in your brews? Sometimes too much crystal can present to me as a little butter-like.
2) What specific yeast strains? Again, some are known for Diacetyl. And you may benefit from moving the fermenter to a warmer location for the last few days of fermentation, thus forcing the yeast to be a little more active and clean up the brew, if it is indeed Diacetyl.

 

[UndeadFred]

Underpitiching isn't usually a major cause of diacetyl. One thing you might want to try before doing starters is to repitch on the yeast cake of the previous brew.. in reality this is almost always a huge overpitch and you can rule it out this way.. or just once intentionally over pitch with store bought yeast.

My biggest complain abut liquid yeasts is they give you 1/2 as much as I'd like to do a 5 gallon batch, but for a 2-3.. eh.. it's about right... I suspect your problem is lack of temperature control. One solution if you don't want to rig up a proper chamber is to move the fermenter to a hot area at about day 3.. (by hot.. high 70s) and do a "diacetyl rest" like people do for lagers.

I find with underpitches you get acetaldehyde (apple) more so than diacetyl.

Good luck with it.

 

[Ironbike1]

Yeast I usually use if it is dry is us-05.

Typically I'll pull a sample on the 2 week mark and test with either a hydrometer or refractometer.
The crystal malt thing is interesting though. The two batches in question with that flavor were made with a good amount of c60
I'm trying to get away from always using dry yeast though, that is my main reason to try out a starter. I've already got everything I need to do it. I think with my size batches I'll only use 1/2 a pack or tube of liquid yeast, then again when I use slap packs I pitch the entire thing