yeast/recipe questions
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sky4meplease
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Something to try:
Stand over the top of your bucket and press down on the perimeter. Try to spread your fingers to cover as much at the perimeter as possible. Don't press down in the center at all just on the rigid sides of the bucket.
I have done this when I have no signs of fermentation in the airlock and it is just enough to create the seal you are lacking. Once the bubbling starts it is more apt to keep going.
Also, turn the lights out and use a flashlight to shine through the fermentor. You can see krausen that way. It may give you some peace of mind.
I would probably try rousting the yeast first before re-pitching if it doesn't attenuate far enough. Definitely give it a week before you go meddling.
Stand over the top of your bucket and press down on the perimeter. Try to spread your fingers to cover as much at the perimeter as possible. Don't press down in the center at all just on the rigid sides of the bucket.
I have done this when I have no signs of fermentation in the airlock and it is just enough to create the seal you are lacking. Once the bubbling starts it is more apt to keep going.
Also, turn the lights out and use a flashlight to shine through the fermentor. You can see krausen that way. It may give you some peace of mind.
I would probably try rousting the yeast first before re-pitching if it doesn't attenuate far enough. Definitely give it a week before you go meddling.
sky4meplease
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Sweet.
I have had that work even when the lid was on correctly.
Give that beer some time and keep it warm which sometimes isn't easy to do this time of year.
I have had that work even when the lid was on correctly.
Give that beer some time and keep it warm which sometimes isn't easy to do this time of year.
Updates/additional questions...
Nothing too exciting to update, beer seemed to be progressing fine. Had some issues keeping the temp up for a couple days when it got really cold out, but I moved it and the temp it back in the high 60s now. Probably going to check the gravity and possibly bottle this weekend or early next week. I was planning on filling a couple of growlers to save time having to fill all 12oz bottles, but was wondering if I need to add additional head space at the top. My thought is more beer, more co2. So would I be good with about an inch or so of space or do I need more? Also, would screw top growlers work or should I stick with the flip tops exclusively? Lastly, I'm probably going to try and harvest/wash the yeast to hopefully use again. Is there any way to estimate the cell count so I can know how much I need to pitch next time?
Nothing too exciting to update, beer seemed to be progressing fine. Had some issues keeping the temp up for a couple days when it got really cold out, but I moved it and the temp it back in the high 60s now. Probably going to check the gravity and possibly bottle this weekend or early next week. I was planning on filling a couple of growlers to save time having to fill all 12oz bottles, but was wondering if I need to add additional head space at the top. My thought is more beer, more co2. So would I be good with about an inch or so of space or do I need more? Also, would screw top growlers work or should I stick with the flip tops exclusively? Lastly, I'm probably going to try and harvest/wash the yeast to hopefully use again. Is there any way to estimate the cell count so I can know how much I need to pitch next time?
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LLBeanJ
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Definitely would not carbonate in screw-top growlers. Flip tops might be okay, but I've never done it. Growlers are meant to hold already carbonated beer and not to withstand the higher pressures that occur during the carbonation process. Unless you hear from others that they've successfully carbonated in flip top growlers, I'd not chance it.
As far as harvesting, if you're going to reuse the yeast within the next 3-4 weeks you can collect slurry and direct pitch it into your next batch. Figure about 1.0-1.5B cells/ml slurry. If using it right away, go with 1.5 and if it will be 3-4 weeks, go with 1.0. That will be close enough. If you want to keep your yeast longer you can wash it (actually, rinsing is the correct term) or if it were me, I'd collect a couple tablespoons of slurry from the fermenter and make a starter with it. That will give you a much higher clean yeast to trub ratio without the hassles of washing. Once the starter is done, pour it off into a couple of small, sanitized mason jars and it should last for at least six months in the fridge.
As far as harvesting, if you're going to reuse the yeast within the next 3-4 weeks you can collect slurry and direct pitch it into your next batch. Figure about 1.0-1.5B cells/ml slurry. If using it right away, go with 1.5 and if it will be 3-4 weeks, go with 1.0. That will be close enough. If you want to keep your yeast longer you can wash it (actually, rinsing is the correct term) or if it were me, I'd collect a couple tablespoons of slurry from the fermenter and make a starter with it. That will give you a much higher clean yeast to trub ratio without the hassles of washing. Once the starter is done, pour it off into a couple of small, sanitized mason jars and it should last for at least six months in the fridge.
Yeah I figured the screw top wouldn't work, but I thought I heard the flip tops are OK. I could very well be wrong tho. I guess I may skip the growlers altogether unless someone has some experience with it.
I'm assuming you cold crash and decant the starter before transferring it to the Mason jars? Would you just pitch that directly later or make another starter before pitching?
I'm assuming you cold crash and decant the starter before transferring it to the Mason jars? Would you just pitch that directly later or make another starter before pitching?
motosapiens
Well-Known Member
i have carbonated in screw-top growlers, but only in emergencies when i have just run completely out of bottles. i have read you shouldn't do it, but it worked out fine for me. no problems at all. I did however put the growlers in a box lined with a trash-can-liner, just in case one of them cracked or something.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
No, I would only crash and decant if I were pitching into a batch of wort. Anytime I'm saving yeast from a starter, I give it a good swirl and pour it off as soon as I take the starter off the stir plate so I get a complete representation of all the cells in the starter. Some cells will be quick to flocculate and others will be slower and I want to capture that mix as best as I can. If you cold crash and decant first, you're dumping out the cells that haven't flocculated yet and if you keep doing that from starter to starter it won't take long before your yeast population as a whole flocculates differently from how it did when it when you first acquired it. If I'm making a large starter to save a portion for later and pitch the rest, I will collect what I am saving first, then crash and decant what's left for the pitch.
Whether you need to make another starter from stored yeast will depend entirely on the age of the yeast, the number of cells, and the SG of the wort you plan to ferment with it. For me, I've found that I pretty much have to make a fresh starter every time. The good news there is that every time you make a starter, it gives you an opportunity to save off some of those fresh cells for a future starter, giving you a perpetual supply of yeast. I brew around 20 batches of beer per year and because of the way I utilize my yeast (save from starters or direct-pitch slurry from fermenter), I typically only buy 2-3 packs/vials of fresh yeast each year.
LLBeanJ
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Most of the yeast will flocculate but there will still be some in suspension. It could take a week or more to reach near 100%. I'm perfectly fine pitching a starter that has been crashed for 24 hours but my OCD won't allow me to do that for yeast I'm saving.
It's probably done after 3 weeks. Many extract brews tend to end around 1.020.
Did you save the yeast cake for your next brew?
Oh, so that's a fairly standard fg? I was thinking/hoping it could get down under 1.015, good to know that I didn't mess something up tho.
Didn't end up harvesting any of the yeast. There was a ton of stuff at the bottom, but there was a lot of hop residue and prob other stuff and I didn't really plan well enough to try and rinse the yeast so I just scrapped the plan. Would I have been able to scoop some of the stuff at the bottom and just throw it into a starter and then cold crash after a day or so on the spinner? Or if it's kinda messy like that is it best to do the rinse/wash thing first?
Didn't end up harvesting any of the yeast. There was a ton of stuff at the bottom, but there was a lot of hop residue and prob other stuff and I didn't really plan well enough to try and rinse the yeast so I just scrapped the plan. Would I have been able to scoop some of the stuff at the bottom and just throw it into a starter and then cold crash after a day or so on the spinner? Or if it's kinda messy like that is it best to do the rinse/wash thing first?
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yes, you could've used it to propagate a starter. You could've also pitched it directly into another brew as-is.
No. IMO, there's no such thing as too messy. Rinsing/washing is unnecessary and a waste of time.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm sure it's possible to over-yeast a starter, but not sure what harm it would cause. At any rate, figure 1.0-1.5B cells per ML slurry and use a yeast calculator to determine an appropriate sized starter. That will get you close enough.
Well i guess my question is if I use the calculator and find out I need a 2L starter, for example, how do I know how much slurry goes into those 2L? I've only seen calculators that give overall starter sizes, but not how much slurry you need in that size starter.
No, it's not a standard FG, it just seems to happen with some extract brews for some unexplained reason. Could be from a load of unfermentables in the extract, age and storage conditions especially with liquid extracts, boiling all the extract for an hour, etc. I have not seen a conclusive study done on this "aberration."
Beware! I didn't say ALL extract brews will stall around 1.020, most will chew through to 1.012-1.014 or even lower, as expected.
There's lots of info here on how to harvest yeast slurries after fermentation. Look em up.
Store the harvested yeast/trub slurry in the fridge in a mason jar. Don't make a starter right after harvesting, make it before you pitch into your new brew. You can pitch about 1/4 of the harvested yeast cake into a new beer without making a starter, as long as the slurry isn't too old, say less than 2-3 months.
Rinsing the yeast in some cases is beneficial if it contains a lot of trub, but pitching slurry with the trub seems to have no negative impact on the next beer.
Yeah, you can certainly overpitch a starter (using too much yeast). Input some numbers in one of those yeast calculators and watch the growth rates go down, the more yeast you pitch. Less growth rate means more old cells and fewer new, young viable cells. Those new cells are the ones that make for a healthy fermentation, as they can easily bud new cells, when pitched, etc.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
All calculators need to know how many cells you're starting with and the viability of the cells. Figure about 1/2 cup of slurry is going to be around 100-150B cells, so maybe enter 125 for initial cell count. For viability date, go with one week after you brewed the batch you're harvesting from. When it's time to harvest, just dip a sanitized measuring cup into the slurry and pull out what you need or a little more than you think you'll need.
Here is the calculator I use.
If using a stir plate, go with the K Troester aeration method.
Adjust starter size to yield the number of cells you need for your next batch. Keep an eye on the inoculation rate and try to keep it between 50 and 100. You can also increase or decrease your initial cell count and/or use multiple steps if necessary (multiple steps should only be needed if using really old slurry or for making very large starters).
Well that's good that it's not necessarily normal. Wasn't too excited about having to make all 1.020 FG beers until I switch to AG lol.
Good info, I'll do some searching and see what I can find. One more quick question about what you tho. You can leave the yeast/trub slurry in a Mason jar by itself? I've seen a lot of stuff saying it's best to store it "under" beer which is why I was thinking I'd make a starter first and then throw that all in the fridge and decant when I am ready to use it.
Good info, I'll do some searching and see what I can find. One more quick question about what you tho. You can leave the yeast/trub slurry in a Mason jar by itself? I've seen a lot of stuff saying it's best to store it "under" beer which is why I was thinking I'd make a starter first and then throw that all in the fridge and decant when I am ready to use it.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
The slurry/trub will be mixed with beer when you harvest it. Over the course of a few days it will separate and the beer will be on top. When the time comes to pitch the slurry into either a starter or another full batch, you can decant the beer and just pitch the slurry. If directly harvesting slurry from a fermenter and pitching immediately without crashing, don't bother worrying about the beer.
For a long time I consistently had my fermentations stop at around 1.020 on standard gravity extract beers. Tried lots of possible improvements:
Rehydrated yeast vs dry pitch - settled on rehydrated (using all dry yeast). Note that for dry pitching, Fermentis calls for pitching at above 68F, which is a little warmer than i like to pitch.
Rehydration procedure (ended up using the Danstar procedure). This includes an initial 15 minute wait, then stirring, then wait 5 minutes, then adding 3/4 oz of cooled wort (as suggested by Danstar in an email - per the email "Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot."). Also tried closely maintaining yeast water temperature while the yeast was rehydrating, but this didn't seem to help.
Spring water for rehydration (have since stopped this)
Aerating by pouring the wort into fermenter from shoulder height
Yeast nutrient
Since trying these things, it's been fermenting out to around 1.009 for the last few years. I'm pretty sure not all these changes were needed to get the result, but they're all easy to do, so I don't plan to change. For future brews you could try some of these methods, or come up with some of your own.
Adding to my post above - I'm now using tap water treated with campden for yeast rehydration. That way I get the minerals needed but not the chlorine/chloramine.
Probably a stupid question, but the yeast I used (wyeast 1318) the attenuation range tops out at 75% and that's the rate I got. So does that mean that no matter how much yeast I pitch (assuming not underpitched) I should expect about a 75% attenuation? Also if part of the og comes from a fully fermentable source like table sugar that shouldn't factor into the AA percentage?
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
As long as the yeast you pitched was healthy and you pitched enough of it, using more yeast is not likely to increase attenuation.
Those percentages are typical and what you can expect to achieve, however there's no guarantee that you will get it. By the same token, it's also possible to exceed it. Variations in the wort and yeast health will affect fermentability, which could cause FG to come in outside of those percentages. Substituting table sugar for some of the extract or base malt (in an all-grain recipe), as the example you gave, would tend to push it towards (perhaps beyond, depending on how much you use) the higher side of the attenuation range.
Those percentages are typical and what you can expect to achieve, however there's no guarantee that you will get it. By the same token, it's also possible to exceed it. Variations in the wort and yeast health will affect fermentability, which could cause FG to come in outside of those percentages. Substituting table sugar for some of the extract or base malt (in an all-grain recipe), as the example you gave, would tend to push it towards (perhaps beyond, depending on how much you use) the higher side of the attenuation range.
What was your OG?
If it was 1.080, then 1.020 is indeed spot on with WY1318 (Attenuation: 71-75%).
Now that doesn't mean it could not have gone lower, it largely depends on the fermentability of the wort, e.g., containing a larger percentage of simple sugars, like dextrose, sucrose (table sugar), even maltose.
A yeast's potential attenuation is typically determined by her inability to ferment maltotriose. Then there are dextrins in the wort that cannot be fermented by most sacch yeasts at all, but Brett can, giving her enough time.
Right, the amount of yeast pitched is fairly immaterial, as long as it is above the minimum cells per your yeast calculator.
