Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[houndsbreath]

I may have to eat crow here and start using starters, but still believe that you can get away with not using a starter for a hard-charging and robust yeast like 3711.

 

[Jboggeye]

My experience so far is that my saisons are better with a starter than without.

 

[lukem5]

I cant understand how pitching a small amount of yeast is bad? Unless you weren't all that sanitary, then you want fermentation to get going asap so the bacteria dont have a chance to take over.

Hasn't anyone just pitched a small amount of yeast (say 1/4 of a wyeast 3724 packet) and gotten successful fermentation at the cost of maybe 2 more days for the yeast to build up?

Whats wrong with starting with a small amount of yeast?

 

[tesilential]

^^esters and other aromatic compounds are produces during reproduction, but this wouldn't be a bad thing in a saison. Oxygen is usually the limiting factor for reproduction, so you would need to aerate more than normal if you rely on reproduction in the fermenter. If you don't get enough cells, attenuation may suffer as the alcohol level rises. I pitch smack packs and then harvest/wash the yeast. I only bother with lagers for starters or when I make some bigger beers.

 

[jpr0930]

First time using this yeast and I everything went off without a hitch. Pitched at 75f and signs of active fermentation began within 12 hours. I cannot wait for this baby to finish!

 

[mugglesport]

I brewed a 5 gallon batch of 1055 on 7/2/11 and by 7/9/11 it was at 1007. Beersmith predicted 1008 (as did the recipe I used). I've seen a lot of people say "this yeast seldom finishes above 1004." Do you think it's still going? I'm not planning to bottle for at least 2 more weeks, I'm just curious.

I've been fermenting this batch at room temperature (which in my house is 77F). I'm about to leave for vacation for a week and am pondering putting it in my chest freezer "cellar" (that also contains a secondary of EdWort's Haus). Thoughts?

 

[Jboggeye]

Lukem5,

there are quite a few reasons why underpitching, even 3711, can be detrimental. Granted, this yeast is much more forgiving than most, and one can produce great beer by underpitching. (however, 1/4 of a pack and a two day lag is not great)

underpitching can cause:
a long lag time, which is bad for sanitary reasons. (my prefered lag time is around 8 hours, and that is with GREAT sanitation) Since we can't create sterile wort, and longer lag time will increase the bacteria count. In my experience with this yeast, with the same sanitation procedures, I have found that the "no-starter" beers have gone a little south after about 9 months. (just not as good as they were) but the "starter" beers just get better and better (2 + years so far)

underatenuation can happen, although we are talking about 1.005 instead of 1.002 in my experience.

head retention and good mouthfeel gets better with a larger pitch

The most important aspect, however, is flavor. There is alot of debate about what creates esters, and a lot of different reasons why esters and flavor compounds are created. (Jamil's yeast book has a ton of info on that)
I have never really believed underpitching is a good way to give esters- there are better ways IMO, such as temp control. (but this is a HUGE toppic and I'll leave it at that)
with my beers that I have underpitched (with 3711), the flavor profile was estery, but had other flavors as well that didn't belong. They were all good beers though.
The ones where I pitched a large starter had "fuller" esters and flavor compounds. they simply tasted better, rounder, complete... maybe a little more subtle but more "precise" peppers and fruits and tartness.

I can only speak through my limited experience, but I have made 10+ saisons with this yeast. But in that experience, there is no need to underpitch this yeast, and you will make better beer with a starter/good cell count.

 

[runs4beer]

I agree with Jboggeye opinions and will add only that controlled under pitching can thread the needle b/t a rich estery profile and off flavors but one must have a true handle on what the viable cell counts is...

Best evidence I can offer is this.

And that:

20% under pitching works well for me too

 

[Red_Zeppelin]

This will be my 5th or 6th different batch with 3711 and they've all turned out great.

I'm currently experimenting with this strain and my IPA recipe. Anybody have experience with 3711 and higher IBU's? Do they play nice?

 

[ChshreCat]

I brewed a 5 gallon batch of 1055 on 7/2/11 and by 7/9/11 it was at 1007. Beersmith predicted 1008 (as did the recipe I used). I've seen a lot of people say "this yeast seldom finishes above 1004." Do you think it's still going? I'm not planning to bottle for at least 2 more weeks, I'm just curious.

I've been fermenting this batch at room temperature (which in my house is 77F). I'm about to leave for vacation for a week and am pondering putting it in my chest freezer "cellar" (that also contains a secondary of EdWort's Haus). Thoughts?

Beersmith doesn't understand this yeast. My recipe was predicited to finish much higher according to beersmith, but it finishes right around 1.000.

If you're at 1.007, unless you have a ton of unfermentables, I'd say you're not done yet. And even if you have a ton of unfermentables, I wouldn't put it past this yeast to chew threw 'em anyway. This stuff will ferment a lawn chair if you can fit it in a carboy.

 

[bwomp313]

So has anyone found out any other information about this yeast, if there's possibly something to it beyond the S. cerevisiae? This threads great, read through the whole thing. I'm on my 2nd beer with 3711 and very excited to see how it turns out. All I did was 100% Belgian Pils malt, .5 lb of corn sugar and cascade hops. 1.062 OG. Pitched at 65 and it's risen to 80 over the course of a few days. Used some washed yeast from a previous batch which was a Petit Saison that came out great. I found it to be extremely floral like potpourri. I hope this one is more citrusy.

 

[runs4beer]

I was thinking I'd email them and ask if there was any little tid bit of fact or lore they could toss down to the cult of the 3711 but I'm lazy and haven't so anyone who wants to go for it. What was the name of the guy from wyeast who was on brew strong at nhc?

 

[B-Dub]

if there's possibly something to it beyond the S. cerevisiae?

I emailed a friend that works for Wyeast awhile back and he said it was a pure strain.

Just sent a second email, but I do not think he works over the weekend. I will post his reply.

Mr malty lists the source as Brasserie Thiriez in France.


BW

 

[hodge]

Well, brewed a second time with this yeast. I used the recipe for NB's Petite Saison d'ete as a template for the grains and hopped exclusively with Bramling Cross (1 oz @ 60, 10 and 2 min). I'm trying to get something close to Brasserie Thiriez XXtra.

In the end, I'm hoping for a hoppy, session strength (OG 1.038) saison.

 

[HokieBrewer]

I concur with everything else said in this thread. Tore through the wort in basically two days. Hardly any krausen though. I figured with a fermentation this vigorous and 2 lbs of wheat in the grainbill it'd be explosive. I bet it was 1" tall max.

 

[NCBeernut]

I wish this forum had a way to reply to a post directly under like BA does...I feel silly posting a reply to the second post in the thread on the 44th page...

I have used this yeast for a couple of saisons now, and just wanted to comment on the flavor...

Compared to the Belgian strain (Dupont yeast), it is a bit more tart and slightly citrusy. The spiciness is similar though. The Belgian Saison yeast is a bit more earthy in my opinion. It seems to flocculate very slowly, ending up in chunks kind of like what 1968 looks like after it is finished. Either way, it really ferments nicely - I appreciate a yeast that will take my beer from 1.050 to 1.000 in less than a week (true story).

 

[B-Dub]

Here is a reply from Wyeast:

I don’t have a ton to add to what we have in our description other than this strain is extremely aggressive. It has a very high alcohol tolerance and also is the most attenuative strain in our bank. Also, it is very very non-flocculent. It is not a top cropper at all and can be very hard to harvest off of a cylindroconical tank.

Hope that helps,

BW

 

[mugglesport]

Beersmith doesn't understand this yeast. My recipe was predicited to finish much higher according to beersmith, but it finishes right around 1.000.

If you're at 1.007, unless you have a ton of unfermentables, I'd say you're not done yet. And even if you have a ton of unfermentables, I wouldn't put it past this yeast to chew threw 'em anyway. This stuff will ferment a lawn chair if you can fit it in a carboy.

Well, a few weeks later and its down to 1002. I'm going to xfer to a secondary and wash the yeast (I would just bottle from primary but I don't have enough time to wash yeast and bottle in the same day).

 

[B-Dub]

Brewing a 15 gallon batch today.

12% Wheat malt
4% 80L
84% Rahr pale malt

24IBUs using Kent Goldings and Saaz

Went to pull a pint after being in Portland for a few weeks and it blew after only an ounce!!

On a side note, the Dark Belgian Hopworks has on tap right now is really good. One of the best Dubbles I have had on tap.

BW

 

[rasherb]

This strain is off the chain!

Not yet 24hrs post-pitch and we have a full on snow globe of yeast.
I love it! Thinking about marrying it like pee-wee did on that one episode with the fruit salad....

 

[B-Dub]

http://www.brasseriethiriez.com/page_site_anglais/index_english.htm

 

[smellysell]

Brewed up a really basic saison with this for my buddy's wedding and fermented it warmer than last time. Hopefully I'll be more impressed with it at the higher temps.

 

[smagee]

Anyone else have a rough time harvesting and washing this yeast? I had a pretty large cake out of it, but the washing didn't really leave much solid at all behind after the trub fell out.

 

[BrewNow]

Hey smagee - I just washed my 3rd generation of 3711 last weekend. You are right, it seems the yeast cake just does not want to form. I believe I ran into slight problems because of this. Trying to coax a little more spice out of the yeast, I purposely under pitched into a 1.065 batch. The gravity went down to 1.000 but the character left behind is a little to esthery (plus some band-aid) for my buds. It's only 10 days post pitch so I hoping the yeast cleans itself up a little over the next couple of weeks. May even dry hop (EKGs) before kegging.

 

[smagee]

Glad to see it's not just me; I can typically wash about a pint of full slurry off of these things, but this yeast netted me around a tablespoon or two. I figure I'll just have to amp it up with a starter in the future, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one .

FWIW, the batch I made with it (a rye saison) turned out *very* funky, but in a good way. However, it's carbing really slowly, as I think a lot of the yeast dropped out during the extended primary time. I'd wager yours will clean up a bit as well, but I'd give it an extra week or so on the cake just to make sure the yeast gets enough time to do so.

 

[DannPM]

Glad to see it's not just me; I can typically wash about a pint of full slurry off of these things, but this yeast netted me around a tablespoon or two. I figure I'll just have to amp it up with a starter in the future, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one .

FWIW, the batch I made with it (a rye saison) turned out *very* funky, but in a good way. However, it's carbing really slowly, as I think a lot of the yeast dropped out during the extended primary time. I'd wager yours will clean up a bit as well, but I'd give it an extra week or so on the cake just to make sure the yeast gets enough time to do so.

Might be carbing slowly due to selecting early flocculators during the yeast harvesting.

How did the attenuation turn out on that one? I'm curious bc I have never harvested via washing (as opposed to top cropping) for 3711 since I always thought that would selectively harvest low attenuators in low flocculating strains.

 

[smagee]

Hmm... that makes a fair bit of sense. I'll have to get back to you on it; my original post was misleading: I made this batch with a smack pack (stepped up via starter) with the intent of harvesting the yeast for future versions. Said harvested yeast remains unused for now. Attenuation with the initial batch was fine (I'll have to check when I get home, but in the vicinity of 75-80% off the top of my head--1.050 to 1.000 I believe), but I haven't brewed anything with the washed version. I'll be stepping it up via starters for future batches, so I'll try to remember to update when I actually use it.

 

[BrewNow]

Glad to see it's not just me; I can typically wash about a pint of full slurry off of these things, but this yeast netted me around a tablespoon or two. I figure I'll just have to amp it up with a starter in the future, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one .

FWIW, the batch I made with it (a rye saison) turned out *very* funky, but in a good way. However, it's carbing really slowly, as I think a lot of the yeast dropped out during the extended primary time. I'd wager yours will clean up a bit as well, but I'd give it an extra week or so on the cake just to make sure the yeast gets enough time to do so.

You bet! I'll be leaving it on a little longer than normal. I did end up throwing in 1 oz of EKGs just to help with the aroma a bit.

 

[Shift]

I pitched a smackpack into 6g with OG 1.055, ~77 ambient temperature and nothing to keep fermentation temperature down. For two days it was bubbling like crazy in the airlock and after that it stopped completely and the krauzen had dropped. I bottled after 14 days and the gravity was stable at 1.006 for the last four days (didn't take any earlier readings).
After only four days it has more or less carbonated in the bottles already, although I think I'll let the bottles sit a bit longer in ambient to make sure they are all carbed up(70F now) before moving them to the fridge.

Kind of off topic, but traditionally if I recall correctly saisons were brewed during fall and aged until summer. So my question is, does anything interesting happen with the flavors if a saison is aged for a longer period instead of being enjoyed while fresh?

 

[smokinghole]

It would depend on the yeast used and the hopping rate. I brewed one in April and bottled with souring microbes. I drank half the batch and just grabbed a few bottles now. The hops have died down a little and it's more tart.