discgolfin
Well-Known Member
They are very dry, same as dupont. But they do not need added sugar, or high temps to achieve this. I have a saison going now..held temps below 70 first 4 days, now have it rising to 80..just to get some fruity esters.
Wyeast 3711 French Saison
- Thread starter B-Dub
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methodbeer
Member
Agreed. Similar to Dupont and others in that style. I had a La Merle the other day, it was dry too. Of course, this fits the style though--with the lack of residual sweetness.
We didn't add extra sugar to our Rye and it was certainly crisp and dry. Most do turn out dry, especially if you mash for attenuation (146 deg - 149 deg). The trick with the yeast is to start low (mid 60s) and let it rise to 70+.
We didn't add extra sugar to our Rye and it was certainly crisp and dry. Most do turn out dry, especially if you mash for attenuation (146 deg - 149 deg). The trick with the yeast is to start low (mid 60s) and let it rise to 70+.
elproducto
Well-Known Member
Nevermind.. should have read the thread 
Just read through the whole thread and I agree 3711 is a beast. I started a Saison with OG of 1044 last Saturday and in 5 days my gravity was 1004, I had to take 2 readings because I was so stunned.
I have a question about primary conditioning temperature, currently the beer is sitting in a room with ambient 72F, if I'm going to do a month long primary and no secondary should I leave it in this room for the month or move it to my normal fermentation room which is around ambient 62F at some point?
I have a question about primary conditioning temperature, currently the beer is sitting in a room with ambient 72F, if I'm going to do a month long primary and no secondary should I leave it in this room for the month or move it to my normal fermentation room which is around ambient 62F at some point?
methodbeer
Member
We usually do a secondary with a fermentation fridge, so I wouldn't know too much about the effect at that ambient temp. My assumption would be that it'd be fine, since most of the alcohol has been produced--in the first 48 hours (at least with Belgian and Franco strains).
From what I've read though, most monks and Belgian brewers will transfer to a long secondary at a much cooler temp (even read low 50s). My concern with this is that the yeast would drop out of suspension, so bottling would be a nightmare unless you re-pitch as they do. We don't re-pitch, so we usually drop our secondary to mid 60's again. In the case of the 3711, it's a Biere de Garde yeast. Keeping with tradition, you should cellar while it ages. So, I would move it to 62 or 64 if I was you. But, ambient temp won't hurt it IMO.
That's the beauty of Belgians and Farmhouse styles: do whatever suits you and if it tastes good then it's "in-style"!
From what I've read though, most monks and Belgian brewers will transfer to a long secondary at a much cooler temp (even read low 50s). My concern with this is that the yeast would drop out of suspension, so bottling would be a nightmare unless you re-pitch as they do. We don't re-pitch, so we usually drop our secondary to mid 60's again. In the case of the 3711, it's a Biere de Garde yeast. Keeping with tradition, you should cellar while it ages. So, I would move it to 62 or 64 if I was you. But, ambient temp won't hurt it IMO.
That's the beauty of Belgians and Farmhouse styles: do whatever suits you and if it tastes good then it's "in-style"!
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methodbeer
Member
Our first time brewing with 3711, we did a double-take too! Did you mash low? 150? or high 140s?
JFryauff
Member
My 3711 pitched Saison seems to be a little more stubborn than most I've read about in this thread.
I mashed high, and had a OG of 1.070, a week later I am only down to 1.030.
I aerated the wort for at least two minutes prior to pitching (no additional sugars), and the starter seemed pretty happy.
Got great fermentation going after just 8 hours, then by day three it was slowed...still going, but slowed.
My basement temp has been a little low, 66-68 degrees, so I started ramping up the temp slowly after 5 days. I'm trying to sit it somewhere now at 78-80, as it goes into week two.
I know I am being impatient, and I am sure it will be fine...but after reading all these "50-60 point drops after 5 days" accounts, it was a bit disappointing.
I mashed high, and had a OG of 1.070, a week later I am only down to 1.030.
I aerated the wort for at least two minutes prior to pitching (no additional sugars), and the starter seemed pretty happy.
Got great fermentation going after just 8 hours, then by day three it was slowed...still going, but slowed.
My basement temp has been a little low, 66-68 degrees, so I started ramping up the temp slowly after 5 days. I'm trying to sit it somewhere now at 78-80, as it goes into week two.
I know I am being impatient, and I am sure it will be fine...but after reading all these "50-60 point drops after 5 days" accounts, it was a bit disappointing.
don't worry, my experience with this yeast is actually slow and steady. 66-68 may be a little cold, but I think you are fine, unless the yeast wasn't very viable. (and you said it was fine so...)
I would leave it at 75 for two weeks, and check again.
I would leave it at 75 for two weeks, and check again.
methodbeer
Member
Jboggeye and JFryauff, I think the reason your 3711 has to work slow and steady is because you're mashing way too high. 154+ is stout temperatures! Saisons are light body, 152- and are best drier--mashing below 150. The yeast WILL eat everything even at high temps (it's a workhorse), that's how it saved the day for our one stuck fermentation. We mashed too high and our sugar chains were too big for the Belgian strain to digest. We re-pitched with the French fermented for 4 weeks at 70 to break all the chains down to 1.005. If you mash appropriately, it'll take less than 5 days to attenuate. We could have left the beer longer, but who needs it drier than 1.005?!
Randy Mosher is the only I've ever read who said mash high for residual sugars. But, I've never had a farmhouse with residual sugars. The book Farmhouse Ales, suggests low temperatures around 148. And, the book Brew Like a Monk talks about creating a digestible beer with mash temps below 150. There's many other examples out there too, especially if you Google it.
Randy Mosher is the only I've ever read who said mash high for residual sugars. But, I've never had a farmhouse with residual sugars. The book Farmhouse Ales, suggests low temperatures around 148. And, the book Brew Like a Monk talks about creating a digestible beer with mash temps below 150. There's many other examples out there too, especially if you Google it.
smizak
Well-Known Member
Just brewed my second saison on Saturday using 3711 as a secondary strain. I love 3724, but I'm not patient enough/too lazy to baby it for a month, so I pitch a big starter of 3724 and just a splash of 3711 out of the smack pack. Sure enough, the 3724 started in six hours, ripped holy hell for about 14 hrs, then gave up the ghost. The 3711 is slowly fizzing away right now. I started bumping up the temp a degree a day, I'll let it finish at 75F. This yeast is a great resource, if not just for restarting stuck ferments or drying out beers.
JFryauff
Member
jboggeye/methodbeer thanks for the info...
I knew the mash temps were an issue when I saw the O.G., lesson learned.
I knew the mash temps were an issue when I saw the O.G., lesson learned.
In your opinion, do you think this yeast will eventually take care of the sugar strains, or should I re-pitch. I'm hoping that time and the warmer temps will allow the yeast to slowly work away.
methodbeer
Member
It's hard to say since there's a lot of factors. But, yeah, I have faith in the 3711. Our screwed up batch (mash too high, stuck sparge, etc) was still going even after the 4 weeks. It will work, but you'll have to be patient. For us, it finally hit the TG, but it wasn't as good as our first batch (same recipe).
The only issue is that you run into off flavors (diacetyl is one) with the number of yeast generations. This is why under-pitching is such an issue. If there's not enough yeast to take on the job, then they let out a ton of diacetyl.
My experience is that it will be fine. At least give it a few days and take another reading. I can't imagine Mash Temps creating a stuck fermentation with this yeast.
Methodbeer, the reason we've been mashing high is because we seem to get overatenuated beers. although a 1.001 saison is very good, I prefer them at 1.004-1.005. (keep in mind that I still can't seem to get the yeast to stop eating these dextrins anyway, even mashing high)
I know they aren't "supposed" to have residual sweetness, but that extra .002 makes it perfect IMO. My saisons are still quite dry and highly carbonated
Also, I forgot to mention that most of my saisons are low OG, and mashing high really helps the beer seem bigger.
Methodbeer, the reason we've been mashing high is because we seem to get overatenuated beers. although a 1.001 saison is very good, I prefer them at 1.004-1.005. (keep in mind that I still can't seem to get the yeast to stop eating these dextrins anyway, even mashing high)
I know they aren't "supposed" to have residual sweetness, but that extra .002 makes it perfect IMO. My saisons are still quite dry and highly carbonated
Also, I forgot to mention that most of my saisons are low OG, and mashing high really helps the beer seem bigger.
OP
OP
B-Dub
Well-Known Member
methodbeer
Member
Jboggeye, well that seems like a smart reason to mash high! If they're eating all the complex sugars still, then it wouldn't have too much residual anyway. We never had issue with it continuing too long. I see your point too on the low OG. Ours are usually above 1.055--which could be a factor too.
B-Dub, that looks like a cool post. I'll check it out today. Thanks!
B-Dub, that looks like a cool post. I'll check it out today. Thanks!
Here's what I'm planning on brewing tomorrow to break in my new brewery. Let me know what you think. I winged it after reading a description in Phil Markowski's Farmhouse Ales.
Recipe: L'Ambree D'Esquelbecq
Brewer: Joe Tylicki
Asst Brewer: Dylan and Darren
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.59 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 5.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
17.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 77.78 %
5.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
1.25 oz Northern Brewer [9.80 %] (60 min) Hops 19.4 IBU
1.50 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
0.55 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [4 QT Starter]
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 22.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.13 qt of water at 169.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 15.75 qt of water at 198.3 F 168.0 F
Notes:
------
Lager for two weeks at 33 deg
Recipe: L'Ambree D'Esquelbecq
Brewer: Joe Tylicki
Asst Brewer: Dylan and Darren
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.59 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 5.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
17.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 77.78 %
5.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
1.25 oz Northern Brewer [9.80 %] (60 min) Hops 19.4 IBU
1.50 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
0.55 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [4 QT Starter]
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 22.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.13 qt of water at 169.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 15.75 qt of water at 198.3 F 168.0 F
Notes:
------
Lager for two weeks at 33 deg
Looks great to me. I made the mistake of adding sugar last time I used this yeast. I think you're on the right path here.
methodbeer
Member
Yeah I agree with passedpawn, I wouldn't add sugar either. I love the simplicity of the grain bill! IMO, simple grain bills = better beers, especially when it comes to Franco/Belgian styles.
My only criticism/concern is the high mash temp. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread. But, I'm sure it won't make a bit of difference with the 3711 as others have noted--it'll be as dry as ever.
The lagering is an EXCELLENT idea. Biere de Garde!!!
My only criticism/concern is the high mash temp. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread. But, I'm sure it won't make a bit of difference with the 3711 as others have noted--it'll be as dry as ever.
The lagering is an EXCELLENT idea. Biere de Garde!!!
Yes, I was going to mash low, then I saw just how low this beast can finish and didn't want it extremely dry. I do like the simple bill but this morning I am toying with the idea of throwing in some Special B or de-husked black for color. The de-husked black may not be as close to style, but I'd need less of it to get an amber hue.
Ended up adding 2 oz of Carafa III. Might be just a tad darker than I'd like for an amber, will use 1.5 oz next time if I make this again.
JFryauff
Member
Update on the Saison...
I stepped the temp up to 78-80 degrees for the last 7 days, and as of yesterday my gravity reading was at 1.009.
I am happy with that, so I have taken off the warmer, and will let her settle out over the next few weeks.
Tasting notes of the measured brew had a slight tartness, and mild hot alcohol esters (assuming from the warmer temps).
I stepped the temp up to 78-80 degrees for the last 7 days, and as of yesterday my gravity reading was at 1.009.
I am happy with that, so I have taken off the warmer, and will let her settle out over the next few weeks.
Tasting notes of the measured brew had a slight tartness, and mild hot alcohol esters (assuming from the warmer temps).
elproducto
Well-Known Member
When is a Saison ready to drink? Do they need months of aging, or can they be drank reasonably fresh? I'd like to have run ready for a camping trip the first week of August.
discgolfin
Well-Known Member
I think if fermentation goes well you'll be more than fine. I tasted my current batch at 2 weeks and it was good. you could brew it in june and be plenty good.
elproducto
Well-Known Member
I'm using Jamil Z's Saison recipe, but judging by the power of this yeast, I think I'll modify the recipe to drop the OG a bit. He suggests an OG of 1.060, but if 3711 gets it down in the single digits FG.. will be a fairly big beer.
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
Note, the yeast don't care what you're happy with. Make sure they're done and the FG is completely stable before you declare it finished or you might end up with overcarbonation and/or bottle bombs. This yeast is famous for being able to ferment to or near 1.000.
JFryauff
Member
Oh, I understand that completely. I won't be bottling for a few weeks yet, as there is still some activity going on, and I'd like to see it dry out a bit more.
