Wyeast 3191 Berliner Weisse no activity

[RugenBrau]

I would think @ 1.006 it would be finished. Mine stopped at 1.009

 

[Gritsak]

Mine was at 1.002 last time i checked (several months ago). I just kegged it the other day..still plan to let it sit for another couple months, i just needed the carboy.

 

[kidsmoke]

Did anybody else get sulfur during primary fermentation? I pitched on Sunday and fermentation is starting to wind down now with a lot of rotten egg smells coming out of the airlock.

 

[steinsato]

Can't say I noticed any sulfur but I did brew mine months ago and could have easily forgotten. I did get a major blowoff about 24 hours after pitching though. I emailed Wyeast again yesterday and they recommended I just go ahead and bottle it, then continue to let it age a few more months. They claim the sourness will increase and a small amount of Brett character will start to come through.

I'm a bit paranoid about kegging this beer which is what I usually do. I'd prefer to keg, carbonate, then bottle with my beer gun but I don't want to risk contaminating beer lines I use for other beers (ex. beergun beerline, keglines) What do you guys think? Am I being over paranoid or should I stick with using a specific set of bottling equiptment for my sours?

All this Berliner Weisse talk has me gearing up to brew another one. I love this stuff.

 

[Gritsak]

Can't say I noticed any sulfur but I did brew mine months ago and could have easily forgotten. I did get a major blowoff about 24 hours after pitching though. I emailed Wyeast again yesterday and they recommended I just go ahead and bottle it, then continue to let it age a few more months. They claim the sourness will increase and a small amount of Brett character will start to come through.

I'm a bit paranoid about kegging this beer which is what I usually do. I'd prefer to keg, carbonate, then bottle with my beer gun but I don't want to risk contaminating beer lines I use for other beers (ex. beergun beerline, keglines) What do you guys think? Am I being over paranoid or should I stick with using a specific set of bottling equiptment for my sours?

All this Berliner Weisse talk has me gearing up to brew another one. I love this stuff.

I keep a couple kegs set aside that i only use with sours. I have 4 taps, and originally planned to use one exclusively for beers with brett. However, i might just buy and extra set of disconnects and line for brett fermented beers and just soak the faucet itself in a bowl of cleaner and then sanitizer before switching.

I wonder if you could instead just add campden tablets to the keg prior to hooking up the lines to kill any of the yeast.

 

[AaronKeller]

I bought the last package of this year's Wyeast berliner weisse blend from my homebrew store, and brewed one up yesterday. After much online research of questionable reliability, its clear that the main problem folks are having with the style is failing to get enough lactic acid out of the Lactobacillus acidophilus. It seems that the bulk of the Lacto activity occurs in that lag time before the Sac yeast kick in and begin to out-compete the Lacto. Perhaps some additional sourness develops during aging, but the first couple of days in the primary seem to be the most critical period for the bacteria. As a result, I'm keeping my temps way up (near 80 degrees) to give the Lacto a competitive advantage during the hours before the Sac start cranking. I'm also considering tossing in a little lactose in the secondary for the Lacto to munch on. Theoretically, I think a lactose addition would work, but I haven't seen any confirmation of positive results.

My question is, now that some people who used this year's berliner weisse blend have had time to age their beers, how is the sourness now? Would you use the blend again? I think pitching some Lacto first and letting it sit at least 3 days before pitching the Sac might be a more reliable option. Anyone have insight into how this beer was traditionally brewed? I understand it was done with a sour mash, but did the Berliner brewers let the beer sit in the primary for a few days before pitching the yeast?

P.S. I also wonder if high hopping rates in some brewer's berliner weisse attempts might have supressed the Lacto growth. (I saw some recipes over 10 IBUs) I imagine that traditional berliner weisse has near zero hop character not necessarily because the Germans hate hops but because the anti-bacterial properties of hops prevent the kind of Lacto growth necessary for such an sharply sour beer.

 

[steinsato]

I haven't tried mine for about a month now but when I tried it, I found it to not be as sour as I would have liked. My IBU's were only about 4. I'm surprised I had any sourness at all considering my yeast went balls out and needed a blowoff tube in under 24 hours after pitching. Wyeast claims it should have a very slow start, like 2-3 days before you notice much airlock activity. Which obviously is not my experience. When I brew this again. I won't use this yeast, I'll spend the extra money on a packet of Lacto and then another packet of german ale yeast to add to it 3 days later. Then I may attempt to harvest Brett from a bottle of Orval to add at bottleing.

 

[kidsmoke]

I bought the last package of this year's Wyeast berliner weisse blend from my homebrew store, and brewed one up yesterday. After much online research of questionable reliability, its clear that the main problem folks are having with the style is failing to get enough lactic acid out of the Lactobacillus acidophilus. It seems that the bulk of the Lacto activity occurs in that lag time before the Sac yeast kick in and begin to out-compete the Lacto. Perhaps some additional sourness develops during aging, but the first couple of days in the primary seem to be the most critical period for the bacteria. As a result, I'm keeping my temps way up (near 80 degrees) to give the Lacto a competitive advantage during the hours before the Sac start cranking. I'm also considering tossing in a little lactose in the secondary for the Lacto to munch on. Theoretically, I think a lactose addition would work, but I haven't seen any confirmation of positive results.

I'd be careful about ramping it up that high. While you will get plenty of lacto action, you'll also threaten to make it too acidic for the yeast to work. Not only that but you might get some off flavors from the yeast working that high as well.

 

[Gritsak]

I don't plan to use this yeast blend again either. I did everything as recommended and had a 2-3 day lag-time before i saw any activity. Still hardly any initial (after 1.5 months) sourness. I've since added about 5lbs of rhubarb and a large starter of lacto to help out. It's definitely better now (some sourness), but still not what i had in mind. It's going on 4 months now, but hopefully another 2-3 months sitting in the keg over winter will allow more sourness to develop.

 

[AaronKeller]

I'd be careful about ramping it up that high. While you will get plenty of lacto action, you'll also threaten to make it too acidic for the yeast to work. Not only that but you might get some off flavors from the yeast working that high as well.

I almost wish I could get that much acidity given the lack of acidity problems experienced by others with berliner weisse blend. . ..but I understand the point. The Saccharomyces fermentation kicked in this morning and I subsequently dropped the temp down in the 70 degree range to avoid any funky by-products (I mean. . .more funky by-products than those made by the Brett and Lacto in the Wyeast blend!). Just wanted to keep those Lactobacillus warm and happy for as long as possible before the yeast took things over.

 

[Thakog]

If it's not sour enough, you can always add some food grade lactic acid. You won't get anymore character out of the beer though, it just increases sourness.

 

[steinsato]

I bottled the beer this weekend. I managed to break a bottle neck while capping and ended up drinking a pint of flat beer. After drinking a full pint I've decided the lactobacillus really didn't come through much at all. The Brett is there and definitely makes the beer funky but I have a feeling the Lacto didn't have time to do its thing before the ale yeast took over. I won't bother with this 3191 strain again, I'll just buy a seperate pack of Lactobacillus and add it 2-3 days before the ale yeast.

 

[AaronKeller]

Good news. After just a few days my gravity is down to 1.006 and there is a strong sourness already present. I think keeping the initial temps near 80 for the first 2 days in the primary may have done the trick. As a possible consequence of the high temps, the yeast have put off some strong sulfur aromas, but I expect those will eventually dissipate. Of course it is not yet as sour as I would like, but it's further along than I expected based on other experiences with 3191 I've read. I've already decided that after a couple of months of aging, if the sourness isn't what I want, I'll pull off a liter or two into an Erlenmeyer or growler and try an experiment by adding lactose to see if the Lactobacillus can turn out some more lactic acid. If successful, I'll add lactose to the entire batch. :rockin:

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

My Berliner Weiss has spent 1 month in the primary and now 4 months in the secondary. I just snapped a couple of pics of the pellicle today (not sure if this is lacto or brett). I transfered it to my keg where it will sit till summer. I tasted the hydro sample and while it tasted good it wasnt very sour at all. I was really hoping with 5 months of aging it would have a good twang. I guess I will wait till summer and see if it has soured up at all and if not I will have to add some lactic acid to the keg. BTW has anyone seen that White Labs will be releasing their Berliner Weiss Blend as a platinum strain this Jan. I wonder if you would get more sour from using that rather than this blend.

 

[steinsato]

My Berliner Weisse has now been in the bottles for 3 weeks. Cracked one open last night and there was barely any carbonation at all. I'm hoping that by summer the carbonation will increase. I taste absolutely no tartness at all. The main flavor is Brett. I am not happy with the Wyeast Berliner Weisse at all. I'm already planning a new brew with the Wyeast Lactobacillus 5335 and some Wyeast Kolsch II that I harvested this past summer. Not sure if I'll add the lacto 24 hours prior to the kolsch yeast or if I should wait til secondary to add the Lacto. Trying to find which method is best right now. I want a really sour beer.

 

[veeellgee]

I threw a pack of the 3191 into a batch second runnings from a BDSA back in November - when I racked it to secondary (into a corny-needed the carboy back in circulation) last month there was no pellicle,only the mildest of sour notes present & very bland. I figured I would throw in some white wine grape juice for flavour and leave it unmolested in the corny for a few months to figure itself out. I tasted it after another 3 weeks and it was still really bland, so decided to split the batch into 2 x 3 gallon carboys; one on blackberries and leave the other to see how it might turn out.

On opening the carboy, it looked like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24690024@N03/5375983172/

Now a month later I have a beautiful pellicle on the one I left alone, and some brett-esque stuff on the berries

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24690024@N03/5375983276/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24690024@N03/5375393157/

It now tastes nicely sour, and I'm probably just going to bottle it now (at 1.001) at let it age till the weather warms up

 

[steinsato]

I was planning on doing another Berliner Weisse with their 5335 lacto culture and then add their Kolsch II culture that I have on stock in my fridge. The Wyeast website claims Kolsch as an acceptable yeast to use for a Berliner Weisse but now I'm starting to have my doubts. Kolsch is not what I would call a clean yeast, I just find it a bit odd that they list Kolsch as one of the yeasts you can use to make a berliner weisse. I guess it would be an interesting experiment.

 

[AaronKeller]

I bottled the beer this weekend. I managed to break a bottle neck while capping and ended up drinking a pint of flat beer. After drinking a full pint I've decided the lactobacillus really didn't come through much at all. The Brett is there and definitely makes the beer funky but I have a feeling the Lacto didn't have time to do its thing before the ale yeast took over. I won't bother with this 3191 strain again, I'll just buy a seperate pack of Lactobacillus and add it 2-3 days before the ale yeast.

Yeah, I really think the key to the Wyeast blend is holding at very high temps (80 degrees) for the Lacto until you see the Sac kick in. I held mine at 78 to 80 for 2.5 days until I saw bubbling and then brought the temp down to 66 over the course of a day. I just bottled after it sat in secondary about 6 weeks and it is wonderfully sour. Not quite mouth puckering, but definitely a sharp, clean sourness. The Brett came through a little bit in the aroma. I'd have no problem using this yeast again. The problem is... I can't reuse. I imagine the yeast cake now has a disproportionate Sac to Lacto ratio relative to the original blend.

 

[kidsmoke]

Just opened mine up to test the gravity and get a taste. The results? OG 1.030 FG 1.005 Super clear, mild brett earthiness, slight lactic in the finish, and a doughy bread aroma to the whole thing. I'm going to try to pitch some more lacto at bottling in hopes of souring it quicker. I figure that with all the sugar required to carbing it up to 3.5-4 volumes (Yay thick Belgian and and champagne bottles!) will give the lactobacillus more than enough to chew on and the bottle is a perfect anaerobic environment to let it thrive.

 

[AaronKeller]

Just opened mine up to test the gravity and get a taste. The results? OG 1.030 FG 1.005 Super clear, mild brett earthiness, slight lactic in the finish, and a doughy bread aroma to the whole thing. I'm going to try to pitch some more lacto at bottling in hopes of souring it quicker. I figure that with all the sugar required to carbing it up to 3.5-4 volumes (Yay thick Belgian and and champagne bottles!) will give the lactobacillus more than enough to chew on and the bottle is a perfect anaerobic environment to let it thrive.

I'm curious how that turns out. It would be a good experiment to split the batch into two at bottling. Add more Lactobacillus to half and leave the other half as control. Or even better. . .split it into thirds and prime 1/3 with corn/table sugar plus Lacto, 1/3 with DME plus Lacto, and 1/3 with corn or table sugar and no Lacto. I'm curious if the Lacto would be able to better utilize the "less fermentable" sugars in DME and produce more acid than it would with corn sugar. I should have tried an experiment with mine. . .but I was pretty happy with the sourness at bottling. Next time. . . .

 

[kidsmoke]

I'm curious how that turns out. It would be a good experiment to split the batch into two at bottling. Add more Lactobacillus to half and leave the other half as control. Or even better. . .split it into thirds and prime 1/3 with corn/table sugar plus Lacto, 1/3 with DME plus Lacto, and 1/3 with corn or table sugar and no Lacto. I'm curious if the Lacto would be able to better utilize the "less fermentable" sugars in DME and produce more acid than it would with corn sugar. I should have tried an experiment with mine. . .but I was pretty happy with the sourness at bottling. Next time. . . .

Actually the plan is to inoculate the 5 gallons and bottle ~3/4 gallons, while "dry peppering" the remaining 2/1 gallons with some ají peppers.

 

[kidsmoke]

I'm happy to report, after bottling half of the batch, the berliner weisse has a nice tart lactic tang to it. I noticed that it started to ferment again about a week ago. I thought it was just the brett, I guess it was a combination the heater and most of the yeast dropping out. I nevertheless pitched a pint of active lacto into it along with some glucose before bottling and racking to secondary...

 

[PSmurf78]

Curious, I just brewed up this weekend using this yeast. I had also gotten a pack of Lacto on it's own, since I originally planed to do a starter with lacto then add sach later, but couldn't past on the berliner pack because of the cost (Free).

I ended up pitching the additional pack of lacto because I had yet to see any activity after about 30 hrs. Temps have been right around 70-72, which feels high to me, but we'll see. I'm hoping the additional lacto will make up for lack of sourness that some report.

 

[steinsato]

That pack of 3191 was probably pretty darn old. Wasn't it from last August? I'm not surprised it's taking awhile to get started. I would think 70-72 is a decent range for this considering lacto likes it to be 80-90 and your sach probably likes it in the mid 60s. I just brewed 10 gallons of Berliner Weisse on Sunday. I decided I did not like the 3191 pack and went with a 1L starter of lacto 5335 to each 6.5 gallon carboy. After about 24 hours I had some kreausen and airlock activity with just the lacto, it was in a water bath at 88F. 36 hours after the lacto addition I let the temp slowly drop to the upper 60sF and will then pitch a starter of German ale 1007 into one carboy and Kolsch II 2575PC into the other. I found that the 3191 was not nearly sour enough for my tastes so I am letting the lacto do it's thing for about 48 hours before I add any sach this time around.

P.S. my one experiment with 3191 left me thinking it didn't have enough Lacto in it. The brett in it really comes through though.

 

[PSmurf78]

Came home tonight, saw a slight bit of activity from the blowoff, so I sneaked a peak. Sure enough, a krausen has formed.

I really hope the extract pack of lacto helps the sourness come through, since I haven't had a good sour since visiting Cascade on their opening week.

 

[kidsmoke]

I've been emailing Labservices @ Wyeast about berliners and this is what they've had to say about how long to let lacto run in the worth before pitching yeast:

think it is optimum to pitch the Lactobacillus a week before adding the yeast. I know this sounds crazy, but it is, I think, the only way to get a sour Berliner quickly.

I'll probably give it a try when I brew a gose....

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

I just tried my Berliner tonight. It was brewed in August 2010. It sat all winter in my basement as the brett and lacto worked along. I am happy to say it is very tasty. It is very light and refreshing with a surprisingly tart finish. I am going to brew 10 gallons this summer for next summers consumption. It has been well worth the wait.

 

[yellowthere]

I've been emailing Labservices @ Wyeast about berliners and this is what they've had to say about how long to let lacto run in the worth before pitching yeast:



I'll probably give it a try when I brew a gose....

Thanks for posting that. That makes sense to me. I along with the vast majority of BW brewers, can't get enough sourness. I pitched 5335 and let it sit for 3 days at 90F, hardly sour at all. Next time it's going to be a full 7 days. I'll just use a super-hardy yeast to finish it off, like 3711, that can work in damn near any environment.

Recently I've tried using acid malt rather than lacto. I used a lot, 12%, but didn't taste much of it pre-carbonated samples. I report back when that is carbonated.