Wyeast 3191 Berliner Weisse no activity

[steinsato]

I've searched the forums and there just isn't much info at all about this yeast yet so I've decided to start a thread.

I brewed a Berliner Weisse yesterday using Wyeast 3191 PC. I smacked the pack 5 hours before pitching but when it came time to pitch the pack hadn't swollen at all. I normally do a yeast starter with Wyeast but because this pack has Lactobacillus and Brett in it as well as a german ale yeast, I wasn't sure if that would be the correct thing to do or not so I decided to pitch directly into the carboy.

The wyeast website says that 3191 is slow to start and that I should give it 2-3 days to let it get started. This morning, 12+ hours after pitching the wort looked very inactive. I'm not too worried yet but I'm wondering what actions I should take if 48 hours after pitching I still see no activity. Should I buy another pack and repitch or is letting the wort sit in a carboy for 48 hours to hazardous in which case I'd have to start all over?

This is the first time I've ever had a smack pack not inflate within 5 hours. The manufacturing date on the package is July 18, 2010 so the yeast is quite fresh. Does anyone have any experience with this strain of yeast? I really didn't want to make another "is my yeast dead" thread but since there isn't much info about this yeast/bacteria anywhere, I felt this was my only option to develope a salvage plan. Thanks in advance.

 

[509inc]

Wyeast 3191-PC Berliner-Weisse Blend
Beer Styles: Lambics, Geuze, Fruit Lambic, Flanders Red Ale
Profile: This blend includes a German ale strain with low ester formation and a dry, crisp finish. The Lactobacillus included produces moderate levels of acidity. The unique Brettanomyces strain imparts a critical earthy characteristic that is indicative of a true Berliner Weisse. When this blend is used, expect a slow start to fermentation as the yeast and bacteria in the blend is balanced to allow proper acid production. It generally requires 3-6 months of aging to fully develop flavor characteristics. Use this blend with worts containing extremely low hopping rates.

 

[steinsato]

Wyeast 3191-PC Berliner-Weisse Blend
Beer Styles: Lambics, Geuze, Fruit Lambic, Flanders Red Ale
Profile: This blend includes a German ale strain with low ester formation and a dry, crisp finish. The Lactobacillus included produces moderate levels of acidity. The unique Brettanomyces strain imparts a critical earthy characteristic that is indicative of a true Berliner Weisse. When this blend is used, expect a slow start to fermentation as the yeast and bacteria in the blend is balanced to allow proper acid production. It generally requires 3-6 months of aging to fully develop flavor characteristics. Use this blend with worts containing extremely low hopping rates.

This is on the wyeast website. I've already read that thoroughly, it still doesn't answer any of my questions. I just wish Wyeast would give more info as to whether a starter should be made for this strain considering it has bacteria in it. Also, they don't say anything about the smackpack taking longer than usual to inflate which is the only reason I'm second guessing it's viability. I'm sure it will be bubbling away tomorrow after I worry about it for 2 days LOL

 

[509inc]

I believe on the smack pack itself says you can smack and pour or smack and inflate. I do not always let mine inflate. I tend to forget that part every few batches or so.

 

[steinsato]

I know it's not necessary but you'd think a pack that is only 2 months old and allowed to inflate for 5 hours would show some sign of life.

 

[509inc]

Yep I would have expected it to inflate. Someone else maybe able to provide some more info for you.

Good luck on the brew tho I hope it works out for you.

 

[steinsato]

Ok, so Wyeast answered the email I sent them this morning. This is what they said:

Thank you for the email. 3191 is designed to give the Lactobacillus time to sour the beer prior to alcoholic fermentation. The yeast count is purposefully low on this blend and mixed with a high quantity of Lacto. The package will not swell quickly (like the normal 4-6 hours), and CO2 production and alcoholic fermentation will take a couple days to start. I know it seems odd, but everything sounds fine. I hope that this helps. Cheers,

So hopefully all my fears are unwarranted as I thought was probably the case. I'll post back if/when fermentation starts.

 

[steinsato]

Checked it tonight after work. About 24 hours after pitching. A good 1 inch kreusen and airlock is furiously bubbling away. I guess this yeast just doesn't inflate the packs like most.

 

[godofcheese]

There is very little yeast in that pack. Its almost all lacto with just a touch of brett.

I am surprised that you have activity now. I would have expected it to take another day or so.

 

[RugenBrau]

The same thing happened with me when I brewed the Kinderwiesse kit. Iwent ahead and dumped it in and it took 3 days to get started. I fermented it in the basement (68 degrees) and it took a long time. I never saw it bubble more than once every 5 seconds. It took 3 weeks till the readings remained the same. I.n letting it sit in the secondary for for a few weeks. I tasted a sample of the wort last night and it is very interesting. I'm really looking forward to this.

 

[steinsato]

Not only was it bubbling when I got home from work, but about 30 hours after pitching it, I ended up attaching a blowoff tube because it started shooting out of my airlock. I really did not expect a wort with an OG of 1.028 to need a blowoff tube.

 

[RugenBrau]

My og was 1.035 and ended withan FG of 1.008

 

[drummerguysteve]

My OG was 1.032, and I need a blowoff too. I brewed another batch on top of the yeast/lacto cake, which I'm hoping will take off quicker than the first batch (a couple days for mine to take off too).

 

[Gritsak]

Have you sampled this yet? I'm curious to see if yours is getting sour. I had a ~48hr lag time before the airlock started bubbling, but mine never developed any sour character. Wyeast was really nice about helping, but i'm a bit skeptical on the blend since i've read that others have had similar results.

 

[steinsato]

I have not tasted mine, but it's only been in primary for 2 weeks now.It has just a few yeast rafts remaining. From pictures of lacto in the fermenter I've always seen a very white chalky looking kreausen, mine didn't seem to ever look like that. I still haven't decided how I'm going to deal with this beer. Not sure if I should leave it in primary for 1 month or let it go longer. Wyeast says "When you bottle, if your beer is homogeneous, the bottles should be the same… but will definitely change in character over aging time." So I don't think leaving it in a carboy longer than a month is really necessary.

Gritsak, how long has yours aged so far?

 

[drummerguysteve]

I left mine in the primary for a month, and it had a crisp sourness when I racked it. Nothing like I'd expect from a Berliner weiss, but I'm hoping it Ages well in the secondary. My lhbs suggested a few months at least in the secondary to get a strong enough flavor.

 

[steinsato]

That sounds good. I think I'll primary for a month, secondary for a month then bottle and age for a few more months depending on taste.

 

[Gritsak]

I have not tasted mine, but it's only been in primary for 2 weeks now.It has just a few yeast rafts remaining. From pictures of lacto in the fermenter I've always seen a very white chalky looking kreausen, mine didn't seem to ever look like that. I still haven't decided how I'm going to deal with this beer. Not sure if I should leave it in primary for 1 month or let it go longer. Wyeast says "When you bottle, if your beer is homogeneous, the bottles should be the same… but will definitely change in character over aging time." So I don't think leaving it in a carboy longer than a month is really necessary.

Gritsak, how long has yours aged so far?

Mine is going on 2 months now, but the sourness should be noticeable even after a couple weeks. That's why they use the different amounts of lacto, sacch, and brett. That first couple days of lag time is mainly when the lactic acid is going to be produced.

Mine had no sourness after about 5 weeks, so per the advice of someone else on the board, i tossed in a couple pounds of rhubarb to see what happens. If i had to do it over again, i'd skip the blend and just use a big starter of lacto 2 days ahead of pitching the sacch. If my current one doesn't take a turn for the better in the next few weeks, i'll probably just add lactic acid to taste so i can at least free up the fermenter and try a different route this time.

 

[steinsato]

Tasted mine last night after about 3 weeks in primary, OG was 1.028 and it is now down to 1.006. There was some sourness to it but not as much as I would have liked. Swmbo doesn't like sours and said it was definitely sour. I think next time I'll just go with a straight pack of Brett rather than this premixed package. I'm going to leave this in primary for one more week, then keg or bottle it and wait another 3 months before I try one again.

 

[godofcheese]

I finally got around to getting mine brewed for next year. (not many left from this years batch) Within 12 hours I had a nice lactobacillus "pelicle" on there looking all nasty and dusty. 48 hours in has a nice krousen that is still kicking along. Mine was 1.033 starting and about 10 IBU. (1oz tett, 2lbs pilsen, 3lbs wheat extract, mash high, 15 min boil)

 

[steinsato]

I was intending on doing a 15 min boil but I forgot about that while I was mashing out and automatically mashed out 6 gallons of preboil wort so I ended up having to do a 60 min. boil to get my volume back down to 5 gallons.

 

[RugenBrau]

tasted mine the other night and thought it was a little too sour for my liking. I kegged it but think I'm going to bottle it and let it sit for a while. I need some space in the fridge!!

 

[godofcheese]

I was intending on doing a 15 min boil but I forgot about that while I was mashing out and automatically mashed out 6 gallons of preboil wort so I ended up having to do a 60 min. boil to get my volume back down to 5 gallons.

Did you add your hops at 15? Too high of IBU and the lacto won't grow.

 

[steinsato]

Did you add your hops at 15? Too high of IBU and the lacto won't grow.

Yeah, I waited til the last 15 minutes to add the hops. It's funny how the same yeast packet is giving lots of different levels of sourness. Some people aren't getting any, some are getting too much and in my case it is there but I'd like more. I'm not too dissappointed in this yeast but if it becomes available again, I'm not sure I'd buy it.

BTW: I used this recipe for my Berliner-weisse https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/spurhund-zunge-95539/ only thing I did differently was boil for 60 min, and switched out his two wyeast packs for the 3191

 

[Gritsak]

Tasted mine last night after about 3 weeks in primary, OG was 1.028 and it is now down to 1.006. There was some sourness to it but not as much as I would have liked. Swmbo doesn't like sours and said it was definitely sour. I think next time I'll just go with a straight pack of Brett rather than this premixed package. I'm going to leave this in primary for one more week, then keg or bottle it and wait another 3 months before I try one again.

That's a good idea to keg or bottle..from what i've read recently the sourness develops better after this stage. Something with how lacto likes to work anaerobically. In any case, please be sure to post back in a couple months with updates.

 

[steinsato]

I'm still trying to decide if I want to secondary for a month or not. I guess if in a week the SG is still 1.006 it's most likely done fermenting and any taste changes can still occur in the bottle. Wyeast seemed to think that a month is plenty of time and they didn't think their was enough Brett in the mix to cause bottle bombs so I guess waiting that extra month to bottle may be pointless. I know the horseblanket flavor will kick in with aging so some more funk is expected, I'm hoping the lacto continues to add sourness but don't really know if it will or not.

Anyone have an idea as to whether washing this yeast is worth the time and trouble? Or is the cocktail percentages going to be out of whack after they have had their way with a wort?

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

Mine has been in the secondary for 2 months now and has a crazy white hairy pellicle that I always assumed was from the brett.

 

[Gritsak]

I'm still trying to decide if I want to secondary for a month or not. I guess if in a week the SG is still 1.006 it's most likely done fermenting and any taste changes can still occur in the bottle. Wyeast seemed to think that a month is plenty of time and they didn't think their was enough Brett in the mix to cause bottle bombs so I guess waiting that extra month to bottle may be pointless. I know the horseblanket flavor will kick in with aging so some more funk is expected, I'm hoping the lacto continues to add sourness but don't really know if it will or not.

Anyone have an idea as to whether washing this yeast is worth the time and trouble? Or is the cocktail percentages going to be out of whack after they have had their way with a wort?

The fact that Wyeast recommends not to make a starter because it alters the cell counts leads me to think washing would be a waste of time.

 

[steinsato]

The fact that Wyeast recommends not to make a starter because it alters the cell counts leads me to think washing would be a waste of time.

Very Good Point
AlphaWolf, have you tasted yours yet?

 

[steinsato]

Well, I decided to let it sit in secondary for a couple of months. I never did get a pelicle. There is a small white ring where the top of the beer meets the carboy but that is it. I'm going to take a gravity reading this weekend. Hopefully, it'll be down to 1.000. If it's still sitting at 1.006 I'm going to bottle it anyway considering that is where it was back in Oct. Once I bottle it, I guess I'll try to hold off drinking them as long as I can. But I'm sure I'll be cracking about 1 every couple of months to keep an eye on them.