WTF? Mash Eff 93.9% but Brewhouse Eff 57%

[Culln5]

Like the title says, WTF? How can I mash at such a high efficiency but miss my OG (according to BeerSmith) by so much? BS has me at a Brewhouse efficiency of 57% when I should be hitting 72%?.... Again, WTF?

I hit my mash temp within 2 degrees for the entire 60 mins and my volumes for my primary within .25 gallons but yet my OG was off by -.010? I hit 1.039 for my OG when I was looking for 1.049?.... I don't get it!

George

 

[billl]

Did you sparge at all? If not, those numbers make sense.

 

[AnOldUR]

How did you arrive at that mash efficiency?

 

[Culln5]

Ok, so I looked at my numbers again this morning and I had forgotten to input my pre-boil volume. BeerSmith now has my mash efficiency at 66.2% and my brewhouse efficiency at 57.0%. My day went like this....

• Mashed 6lbs of 2-row and 4lbs of wheat for 60 minutes at 152
• Mashed out at 168 for 10 minutes
• Hung the bag and squueezed every last drop I could out of it
• Chilled it with my wort chiller
• Transferred it to my carboy (taking sample during the transfer for my hydrometer)
• Pitched my yeast and threw it in the closet

Like I said, there was nothing that sticks out that went "wrong". I did wake up this morning to my airlock and floor full of krausen so I'm still making beer!

George

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ya did boil it?
Kidding aside, wheat is hard and smaller than barley, maybe you didn't get enough crush?

Slightly lower efficiency is not uncommon with large % of wheat.

Better luck next time.
Cheers!


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[Owly055]

I've been hitting mash efficiencies above 90% lately. The key (for me) is having my own mill and setting it as tight as I can without the crank handle slipping. A very fine crush. Mashing for 90 min also helps, and I sparge, which I believe also helps in two ways. More water = lower mash efficiency, so holding out water for sparging ups the mash efficiency, and the sparge rinses out sugars that might otherwise remain in the grain.
I disliked BIAB initially, but have become a believer. I strongly doubt that many people doing conventional mashing achieve the same or greater efficiency.

H.W.

 

[Culln5]

I double mill my grains at my lhbs and I don't do a sparge. I would like to get it under control. I'm averaging about 60% brewhouse efficiency through 6 BIAB's.

George

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I strongly doubt that many people doing conventional mashing achieve the same or greater efficiency.



H.W.

I have to disagree there. I mill my own grains do a "conventional mash" batch sparge with two sparges and am consistently in the 85% area with my mash efficiency.

Edit: and if I can do it .......

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[billl]

I double mill my grains at my lhbs and I don't do a sparge. I would like to get it under control. I'm averaging about 60% brewhouse efficiency through 6 BIAB's.

George

Adding a simple sparge step will increase your efficiency considerably, if that is your goal. Otherwise, you can make great beer at 60% efficiency....it will just cost you a couple bucks more per batch.

 

[ClemTiger0408]

I've had a problem with what the OP mentioned, but at a better efficiency.

The last two batches my pre-boil wort was in the 80%'s and then the OG ends up being significantly lower.

For example, yesterday I brewed the Pliny the Elder recipe from this site. My pre-boil wort was 1.055, which, for the 7.75 gallons of wort is about 82% efficiency. Then, my OG after boil down to 5 gallons (I guess I boiled too hard, was targeting 5.5 gallons) was 1.075 which is 71%.

What could possibly cause this?

 

[Culln5]

Adding a simple sparge step will increase your efficiency considerably, if that is your goal. Otherwise, you can make great beer at 60% efficiency....it will just cost you a couple bucks more per batch.

I do not currently sparge. What is the most effective way to sparge and still only use one vessel?

George

 

[Weezy]

To piggy back on bill's post bill, higher efficiency doesn't mean better beer. Consistency in your process from batch to batch will lead to better beer. Mash efficiency only indicates how much your batch costs to brew and means nothing with regards to quality of the beer. Don't chase a number.

To sparge, you need a second pot to heat sparge water separately to the approp. temperature . With a biab bag, you can just dunk the bag in the second pot and stir the grains to rinse off the sugars stuck to the grains. You can do this on the stove, if you don't have an option with your brewing equipment.

 

[RM-MN]

To piggy back on bill's post bill, higher efficiency doesn't mean better beer. Consistency in your process from batch to batch will lead to better beer. Mash efficiency only indicates how much your batch costs to brew and means nothing with regards to quality of the beer. Don't chase a number.

To sparge, you need a second pot to heat sparge water separately to the approp. temperature . With a biab bag, you can just dunk the bag in the second pot and stir the grains to rinse off the sugars stuck to the grains. You can do this on the stove, if you don't have an option with your brewing equipment.

You really don't have to heat the sparge water. Those who have tried with hot water and cold have found little difference in the amount of sugars reclaimed from the grains.

I set my bag of grains in a colander with a plastic bowl under it. When it quits draining, I dump the collected wort into the boil pot and then squeeze out what I can and dump that too. Then I take the bowl, colander, and bag of grains to the sink and run some cold water through the grains and dump again. I'll repeat this if necessary to get to my preboil amount.

 

[Culln5]

So if I wanted to do a dunk sparge, would I hold water from my mash to the side to do this? I'm seeing an average of about 9 gallons of water needed for 10-12lbs of grains. Would I mash in say 7 gallons of water and dunk sparge in two gallons? I'm having a hard time picturing this.

George

 

[billl]

There are a million ways to mash and sparge - and they can all work. Just go with what is easiest in your setup. The total maximum usage for a dunk/batch sparge comes when you use about half of your pre-boil volume for the sparge step, but that is a pretty small impact compared to the jump from no-sparge to any-sparge. If you've got an easy way to suspend the grain bag, then sprinkling water over it to sparge is a great option. If holding a big bag of hot grain seems problematic, then just picking it up and dunking it would be a great option.

The key is that you are washing sugars out of the grain. Just like any other sort of thing you might wash, a final rinse with some fresh water makes a big difference in how much dirt (sugar) remains.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

The sparge water counts as part of your preBoil volume. Mash at whichever ratio average 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound to mash. Say 10pound grainbill at 1.5qts/LB so 15 quarts mash water. 3.75gallons then after mashing drain that into your bucket or boil kettle then add the difference you need to reach preBoil. I need 6.5gallons so 6.5-3.75=2.75 gallons. I do two sparges so each one I'd add 1.875gallons stir it like it owes me money. let it sit 10 minutes. Drain and add remaining 1.875gallons stir like it owed me again let sit 10min then drain and boil as usual.


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[balrog]

... stir it like it owes me money...

Love it. :rockin:

 

[DurtyChemist]

I double mill my grains at my lhbs and I don't do a sparge. I would like to get it under control. I'm averaging about 60% brewhouse efficiency through 6 BIAB's.

George

Stir the mash and monitor temps every 10-15 minutes and you'll see an increase. Also, consider mashing in a little less water if you have high bicarbonate levels. Those keep mash pH high.

 

[Culln5]

Stir the mash and monitor temps every 10-15 minutes and you'll see an increase. Also, consider mashing in a little less water if you have high bicarbonate levels. Those keep mash pH high.

I am basically stirring for about 5 seconds every 15 minutes or so.

George

 

[Culln5]

The sparge water counts as part of your preBoil volume. Mash at whichever ratio average 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound to mash. Say 10pound grainbill at 1.5qts/LB so 15 quarts mash water. 3.75gallons then after mashing drain that into your bucket or boil kettle then add the difference you need to reach preBoil. I need 6.5gallons so 6.5-3.75=2.75 gallons. I do two sparges so each one I'd add 1.875gallons stir it like it owes me money. let it sit 10 minutes. Drain and add remaining 1.875gallons stir like it owed me again let sit 10min then drain and boil as usual.


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OK..... I'm going to do a California Common next that requires 10.75lbs of grains (at 72%) be mashed in 9.01 gallons of water. Using your method I would mash in 3.375 gallons of water and dunk sparge in 5.625 gallons, squeeze the bag, and add this to my boil?

This kinda seems backwards to me? Why do you mash in less water and sparge in more water?

George

 

[TexasWine]

OK..... I'm going to do a California Common next that requires 10.75lbs of grains (at 72%) be mashed in 9.01 gallons of water. Using your method I would mash in 3.375 gallons of water and dunk sparge in 5.625 gallons, squeeze the bag, and add this to my boil?

This kinda seems backwards to me? Why do you mash in less water and sparge in more water?

George

I think you're math is a tad off from the example given.

10.75lb x 1.5 qts/lb = about 4 gallons

If you want 6.5 gallons pre-boil you'd simply sparge enough volume to hit 6.5 gallons.

Pretty sure the 9 gallon number you have is if you were doing a full volume mash. Following your math, you'd end up with 9 gallons pre-boil.

 

[billl]

"This kinda seems backwards to me? Why do you mash in less water and sparge in more water?"

Within reason, having a thicker mash means you've got relatively higher concentrations of enzymes and starches, so they'll tend to bump into each other frequently and do their magic. 1.25-1.5 is generally considered a good balance between being able to stir the thing and having a pretty dense mash. You can do up to 2.0 if you want and it will work too. (assuming your other mash parameters are good) If you get too thin though, you'll risk seeing lower conversion numbers.

"Pretty sure the 9 gallon number you have is if you were doing a full volume mash. Following your math, you'd end up with 9 gallons pre-boil."

Grain will absorb a good chuck of the water. He'd get 7 and change of wort from 9 gallons of total water.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

OK..... I'm going to do a California Common next that requires 10.75lbs of grains (at 72%) be mashed in 9.01 gallons of water. Using your method I would mash in 3.375 gallons of water and dunk sparge in 5.625 gallons, squeeze the bag, and add this to my boil?



This kinda seems backwards to me? Why do you mash in less water and sparge in more water?



George

10.75lbs at 1.5quarts per pound comes to 16.125 quarts or just over 4 gallons if you're doing a 5 gallon batch I would like to have around 6.5 allows for boil off and trub in the fermenter to get me 5in the keg. So then I would split the difference as my sparge. 6.5-4=2.5gallons so I would probably just do a sparge with 2.5gallons stir let sit 10 then drain then add remaining 2 gallons stir let sit drain. I know some say you don't have to let it sit. It just makes me feel better to do so. So I do. Then I would boil as usual.


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[Culln5]

Apparently I used my water volume (9 gallons) to do my math this morning and not my grain bill.... Dumb ass.

The 9 gallon number comes from Beer Smith and I believe is a full volume BIAB mash.

If I remember correctly, Beer Smith calls for a 9 gallon mash and with my equipment profile and trub/cooling loss I should boil 7 gallons to achieve my 5.25 gallons into the bucket.

With this being said, shouldn't I still use the 9 gallons as my total water volume needed? I could mash with 5 gallons, minus what the grains absorb, dunk sparge with the remaining 4 gallons, minus the additional grain absorption, and shouldn't that put me at or near my 7 gallon preboil mark?

George

 

[TexasWine]

Apparently I used my water volume (9 gallons) to do my math this morning and not my grain bill.... Dumb ass.

The 9 gallon number comes from Beer Smith and I believe is a full volume BIAB mash.

If I remember correctly, Beer Smith calls for a 9 gallon mash and with my equipment profile and trub/cooling loss I should boil 7 gallons to achieve my 5.25 gallons into the bucket.

With this being said, shouldn't I still use the 9 gallons as my total water volume needed? I could mash with 5 gallons, minus what the grains absorb, dunk sparge with the remaining 4 gallons, minus the additional grain absorption, and shouldn't that put me at or near my 7 gallon preboil mark?

George

9 gallons will get you in the ballpark. I wouldn't get too hung up on the exact number from Beersmith. Just get to the pre-boil volume you want with your sparge water.

 

[Culln5]

Should I now select Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge for my Beer Smith mash profile or is there a way to properly tell the BIAB profile that I am going to batch sparge? I see an option for it but I can't seem to get it to come off sparging with .5 gallons.

George

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

Should I now select Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge for my Beer Smith mash profile or is there a way to properly tell the BIAB profile that I am going to batch sparge? I see an option for it but I can't seem to get it to come off sparging with .5 gallons.

George

I'm sure there is a setting for it somewhere. Wish I could help you out there but I use beer alchemy On my iPhone.


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[Culln5]

So I added a batch sparge this weekend and used Briess grains and my Brewhouse Efficiency was 74% and the Mash Efficiency was 95.8%.... I was pleased with the day.

George