WTF is happening to my beer???

[ChappysBrewing]

Okay so I thought I was getting a hang of just brewing in general but this has just kinda got me puzzled I must say.

So I brewed a batch close to 26 gallons after my 60min boil and it was going to be a sour beer in which I was behind with some of my prep such as getting my lactobacillus starters ready but went ahead and brewed anyways because I had the time. I know that my beers need to stay around 90 degrees as thats the temp the lacto likes. So I pump all the wort into 4 buckets, throw the lids and airlocks on and put em in my fermentation chamber with adding nothing to them. I have a heat wrap on each and they're controlled by a temp controller to keep em at that temp. Well I went out yesterday (less than 2 days after the beer is done) as I am going to look at my starters and all 4 beers are currently fermenting and the beer has pushed liquid into the airlocks and dont know why this could/would have happened.

I will say that 3 of the 4 buckets had beers in them as of that day but moved those beers (sours that had only been treated with lacto and beer yeast) into another vessle and added my brett. I went ahead and put each of the buckets on 1 of those washers and then hand washed everything with PBW (I wash ever piece of equipment before I brew). So I would assume the buckets would have been pretty decently clean and definitely didn't have any leftovers. 1 of the buckets I had not used with sours yet so was more or less a brand new buckets.

How in the world are my beers fermenting without adding any type of yeast or anything to them? Or why do I have this krausen (havent tested to see if my abv has dropped just each have activity going on in the airlock and the 1 I quickly opened and closed was full of bubbles and looked like yeast growth from a normal beer).

I finally have my lacto starters and was thinking of adding them, but dont believe they will get sour if it is yeast that is fermenting the beers and turning the sugars into alcohol. Not really sure what to do as yeah the temp is still around 90 degrees so even if the wort somehow is turned into beer, I dont know how well its going to taste as its been fermenting at 90 instead of the normal although I was actually going to lager this with a Kolsch strain. Yeah so you could say I am quite confused and dont know what to do with all of this wort/beer

 

[filthyastronaut]

Sounds like wild yeast, for sure. If you want sours, go ahead and pitch your Lacto, they will just take a long time to sour compared to if you were doing a quick sour. If you're worried about the heat with the yeast you could potentially pitch Brett too, which may aid in changing unwanted flavors over time. If you have the inclination, you could do one with nothing added, one with Brett, one with Lacto, and one with both Brett and Lacto.

 

[jrgtr42]

*snip* If you have the inclination, you could do one with nothing added, one with Brett, one with Lacto, and one with both Brett and Lacto.

I'm kinda liking this idea - treat it as a sort of experiment. At least leave one bucket alone, let it do its thing with no added yeast. You may end up with something amazing and a new house sour yeast / bug, (of course you may end up with something completely undrinkable...)

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Sounds like wild yeast, for sure. If you want sours, go ahead and pitch your Lacto, they will just take a long time to sour compared to if you were doing a quick sour. If you're worried about the heat with the yeast you could potentially pitch Brett too, which may aid in changing unwanted flavors over time. If you have the inclination, you could do one with nothing added, one with Brett, one with Lacto, and one with both Brett and Lacto.

Yeah I just dont know how wild yeast got in there. The only things that could have done it would have been the previous lacto or the beer yeast which really the lacto was the only thing different I had added. I was actually trying to make this 1 into a kettle sour as i have the other 1 I just added Brett and was going to let it roll for a good 6 months to a year. May just have to do the same type of thing with this 1 depending. Ill add the lacto in when I get home and instead of doing a second boil to kill it and then pitch yeast will let it just roll and I guess maybe add a brett strain like you said. **** just adds up quick haha

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I'm kinda liking this idea - treat it as a sort of experiment. At least leave one bucket alone, let it do its thing with no added yeast. You may end up with something amazing and a new house sour yeast / bug, (of course you may end up with something completely undrinkable...)

Haha Yeah I think I will have to turn it into an experiment. Was just shocked to go out and look at it and it was fermenting and nothing was added. Have been like wtf is going on with this beer! Will add lacto to at least 2 of them and brett to at least 1 if not 2 just to give it a whirl. I figure after fermentation I could at least taste/smell to make sure it doesnt smell like its already bad to just toss out. Just didnt know why it would start when I do pretty darn good with sanitation. Oh the thrills of homebrewing.

 

[dyqik]

Haha Yeah I think I will have to turn it into an experiment. Was just shocked to go out and look at it and it was fermenting and nothing was added. Have been like wtf is going on with this beer! Will add lacto to at least 2 of them and brett to at least 1 if not 2 just to give it a whirl. I figure after fermentation I could at least taste/smell to make sure it doesnt smell like its already bad to just toss out. Just didnt know why it would start when I do pretty darn good with sanitation. Oh the thrills of homebrewing.

Did you actually use any sanitizer? You don't mention any in your original post. PBW isn't intended to be a sanitizer, it's intended as an alkali cleaner, and rinsing after using it will largely undo any sanitizing action it did happen to have. Starsan or similar is an acid sanitizer, but it can't sanitize what it can't touch due to dirt.

The cleaning and sanitizing process is:
1) Clean with PBW/Oxiclean/dish soap or whatever works for you
2) Rinse thoroughly to remove cleaning agents
3) Sanitize with acid sanitizer and do not rinse
or
3) Sanitize with iodophor or similar and do rinse

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Did you actually use any sanitizer? You don't mention any in your original post. PBW isn't intended to be a sanitizer, it's intended as an alkali cleaner, and rinsing after using it will largely undo any sanitizing action it did happen to have. Starsan or similar is an acid sanitizer, but it can't sanitize what it can't touch due to dirt.

The cleaning and sanitizing process is:
1) Clean with PBW/Oxiclean/dish soap or whatever works for you
2) Rinse thoroughly to remove cleaning agents
3) Sanitize with acid sanitizer and do not rinse
or
3) Sanitize with iodophor or similar and do rinse

Wow, so I have to also sanitize even after using a heavy amount of PBW? I haven't done that yet even though I do have SanStar around the house and use it for certain things such as running my entire system before brewing and then dump it all and just add my water and start but have not been using sanatizer after PBW after cleaning. Holy smokes thats another step to incorporate when it already takes so long to get things clean.

So more or less the yeast somehow from the previous batch has somehow worked its way into this beer? My only question/stipulation with that is 3/4 buckets I can see but 1 bucket has been sitting there for a year and it also started fermenting. So something is up, just dont know what. Overall hating brewing after these things start to happen. I just wanna make beer dang it! ha

 

[SlitheryDee]

I'm thinking yeast from a previous batch got in there. Even the bucket that has been sitting for a year could have some dormant yeast left in it. That's how yeast work in the wild. When conditions favor them they multiply and flourish. When they don't they hibernate and wait, sometimes for an extremely long time. If you think about the sheer numbers of yeast involved in a typical beer fermentation you have to assume that there's basically no way you can possibly wash them all off. By the end of a fermentation there could two trillion of them in the yeast cake alone. After you get done cleaning your buckets you've probably slopped out water around your brew space that contained billions of them. Do enough brews and they might cover every surface you work on in an invisible layer of dormant cells. I bet we could all start a spontaneous fermentation if we cleaned our equipment without using sanitizer just from the general permeation of our brew space by brewing yeast.

 

[dyqik]

Wow, so I have to also sanitize even after using a heavy amount of PBW? I haven't done that yet even though I do have SanStar around the house and use it for certain things such as running my entire system before brewing and then dump it all and just add my water and start but have not been using sanatizer after PBW after cleaning. Holy smokes thats another step to incorporate when it already takes so long to get things clean.

So more or less the yeast somehow from the previous batch has somehow worked its way into this beer? My only question/stipulation with that is 3/4 buckets I can see but 1 bucket has been sitting there for a year and it also started fermenting. So something is up, just dont know what. Overall hating brewing after these things start to happen. I just wanna make beer dang it! ha

You don't need anymore PBW than is necessary to clean the buckets. I don't use it on my bucket at all - I just clean them when I empty them.

Then I just use StarSan when I sanitize before putting wort in them. I only need about a gallon of StarSan to sanitize pumps, counterflow chiller, hoses and bucket, and I keep it and use it on multiple batches and on kegs (now I actually keep a 5 gallon batch of StarSan in a keg, so I can push it out with CO2 to the next keg in line and have a purged keg).

You can also reuse PBW if it's not too dirty. Clean with water and a plastic scrubby or brush to remove most of the dirt, then PBW just for the stubborn stuff. Also, note that the dilution amount mentioned in the instructions is for commercial scale CIP cleaning, not soaking and scrubbing. You can use quite a bit less if you are able to let it soak.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

You don't need anymore PBW than is necessary to clean the buckets. I don't use it on my bucket at all - I just clean them when I empty them.

Then I just use StarSan when I sanitize before putting wort in them. I only need about a gallon of StarSan to sanitize pumps, counterflow chiller, hoses and bucket, and I keep it and use it on multiple batches and on kegs (now I actually keep a 5 gallon batch of StarSan in a keg, so I can push it out with CO2 to the next keg in line and have a purged keg).

You can also reuse PBW if it's not too dirty. Clean with water and a plastic scrubby or brush to remove most of the dirt, then PBW just for the stubborn stuff. Also, note that the dilution amount mentioned in the instructions is for commercial scale CIP cleaning, not soaking and scrubbing. You can use quite a bit less if you are able to let it soak.

Yeah I went a little crazy and went out and bought a double sink that came out of a restaurant and is stainless steel. It will hold 1 of my 30 gallon Boil kettle sitting up and down and allows me to clean. Normally I fill up the left 1 with PBW and water and use it as my wash station. Wash in the first, rinse and then let dry. I Guess now I have to wash, rinse and somehow sanitize with sanstar and then let dry. Or at least sanitize anything that wort is going to go into after my boil to make sure that piece is clean. I do let things soak depending on the item but have never had an issue cleaning anything, I guess I just haven't been sanitizing much if anything thus far although have had no crazy/bad batches until this 1.

 

[dyqik]

You only need to wet the bucket with StarSan for 30 seconds, and it foams to make this easy. Make up a gallon of StarSan in one bucket, put the lid on and shake it. Pour the StarSan into the next bucket. Repeat, and pour the last bucket out into a container that you'll keep the StarSan in until next time.

 

[Bauzer]

I was going to ask about sanitizer too until someone else piped up.
What you are going through right now is why I have yet to get in the sour game. It can infect your whole brewhouse if you aren't careful. They are resilient strains, as you are realizing. If some day you make an Ale or something and it tastes really off, it could be because you have these sour strains still in there.

Buckets are also.. not the greatest options for fermenting, as they tend to wear and tear over time, having micro cuts after a few washes where the yeasts can hide. One more reason I champion glass carboys, but that said, I do have a bucket fermentor that I like to use for test batches with crazy additions that I can remove if necessary.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

You only need to wet the bucket with StarSan for 30 seconds, and it foams to make this easy. Make up a gallon of StarSan in one bucket, put the lid on and shake it. Pour the StarSan into the next bucket. Repeat, and pour the last bucket out into a container that you'll keep the StarSan in until next time.

Oh totally will be doing that for sure on any bucket I use going forward. I guess I will just make this 25 gallons into an experimental hopefully drinkable batch and make sure I sanitize any other buckets to make sure this crap doesnt happen again!

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I was going to ask about sanitizer too until someone else piped up.
What you are going through right now is why I have yet to get in the sour game. It can infect your whole brewhouse if you aren't careful. They are resilient strains, as you are realizing. If some day you make an Ale or something and it tastes really off, it could be because you have these sour strains still in there.

Buckets are also.. not the greatest options for fermenting, as they tend to wear and tear over time, having micro cuts after a few washes where the yeasts can hide. One more reason I champion glass carboys, but that said, I do have a bucket fermentor that I like to use for test batches with crazy additions that I can remove if necessary.

Oh i totally agree and yeah wont make that stupid mistake again. Yeah these buckets are specific for my sours only and have totally different equipment for everything not sour. Ultimately I am going to get away from buckets very quickly and move to Sanke kegs instead as 1 can hold a good 13 gallons. A matter of getting them converted over and buying the kit I have found, just 70 bucks for 1 sanke so can get expensive. Plus I plan on buying at least 1 1/2bbl conical this summer when Spike Brewing finally releases them, may get 2. That will change a lot of the way I work since itll be going into stainless and easier to clean and make sure I kill all those bugs. I was going to do glass but they're expensive ultimately and dont do the greatest with heat where depending on the Lacto strain could have to keep the buckets or what not at 110 degree for a few days and well glass is just heavy and all that. Will have 2 I will use as well for sours.

I mean i thought I was doing a great job being sanitary up until this point and now finding out I gotta do a PBW wash and sanitize. Wont make that stupid mistake again!

 

[Bauzer]

We all make mistakes! You live and you learn!

When you get in to stainless make sure you read up on how to treat and clean it. I myself have been brewing out of a deep fry turkey kit, and I'm getting worried the metal is pitting and releasing iron in my beers . Planning on upgrading to Stainless very soon, but also when it comes to your fermenters, you'll need to treat and 'passivate' the metal after a few brews. If you see the oily rainbow discoloration after it dries, its time to passify!
http://jvnw.com/2013/12/19/passivation/

 

[ChappysBrewing]

We all make mistakes! You live and you learn!

When you get in to stainless make sure you read up on how to treat and clean it. I myself have been brewing out of a deep fry turkey kit, and I'm getting worried the metal is pitting and releasing iron in my beers . Planning on upgrading to Stainless very soon, but also when it comes to your fermenters, you'll need to treat and 'passivate' the metal after a few brews. If you see the oily rainbow discoloration after it dries, its time to passify!
http://jvnw.com/2013/12/19/passivation/

Oh I am stainless and quick disconnect all the way through. If I see any pitting after a boil or such I have a stainless cleaner I use and it takes everything out and makes it shiny new. Just bought my first conical this last weekend so will see how that works out. Plus moving to sanke kegs as fermenters as well for sours instead of buckets. Can do a whole kit w/ keg currently for around 120 each. Starting with 3 and may increase.