Wrapping my head around this...
- Thread starter choirjon
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
iijakii
Well-Known Member
They don't work like a rheostat, no, but they have a manual % on/off time you can use to control the boil. So once you hit boiling, turn it down to say 40 or 60% or whatever your volume needs to get a good standard boil.
So I have a fourty amp circuit with Spa ground falt yada yada. I think that I will build a kit from ebrew. I would like to run two elements one at 4500watt and one at 5500watts. Can I build the 50amp kit? Or should I build the 30amp kit.
milldoggy
Well-Known Member
Edit
cgherrington3
Well-Known Member
watts/volts = amps
just curious what are you planning to do running 4500 and 5500 elements at the same time?
just curious what are you planning to do running 4500 and 5500 elements at the same time?
BadNewsBrewery
Well-Known Member
Note - 4500w + 5500w / 240v > 40a, so there's a very good chance you'll wind up tripping your breaker on a regular basis anyways, so maybe just put in the properly sized breaker or change your panel design to only run one at a time... The breaker is a safety device, not something to be pushed and run up to its maximum.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
If he replaces the the 5500 watt element with another 4500 watt one he should be good...(barely). Or he could set his system for 208v....5500 watts is really overkill for 5 gallon batches and 4500 is fine for ten gallons but the 5500 watt elements run $10 cheaper because they are more common in hot water tanks and for that reason they are more common in electric brew setups....
Ace hardware sells a reasonably priced uld 4500 watt element.... I bought both of mine new on eBay for under $30 shipped.
I found myself asking why I would want both elements on at the same time and decided to just go with a 30a 10/3 line and set it up to only allow one element at a time... less worry about running an element dry as well.
BadNewsBrewery
Well-Known Member
How does one simply 'set' their system for 208v, unless they have 3 phase power?
I run both my elements at the same time. For HERMS, it allows me to heat strike water in my BK and sparge / HERMs water in the HLT. Gets everything up to temp quicker. I also get to do back-to-back batches if I'd like.
I run both my elements at the same time. For HERMS, it allows me to heat strike water in my BK and sparge / HERMs water in the HLT. Gets everything up to temp quicker. I also get to do back-to-back batches if I'd like.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
There are UPS's that will alter the "phase" (like the symmetra) and do it as well as the buck boost transformers that we commonly use in installations.... not the cheapest route but if your already blowing an extra $500 or so to buy your panel in "kit" form than the money isn't all that big of an issue right?
I get the use of two elements for back to back batches but how much time do you really save with heating the additional water in the boil kettle vs just shutting off the herms coil and heating the hlt water an extra 20 degrees or so to sparge with? Or doesn't this work well? I'm still building my electric herms setup so I haven't completed the motions yet... just watched a lot of YouTube footage on the process. I did use an igloo cooler for mash mash tun because it would hold temps well during this process even with the herms flow disabled.
Most common reason for wanting to run both at the same time is if you are doing back to back batches.
While I don't plan on this, I did go 50A in my panel because I didn't want to mess with a manual element select switch as I am building a BCS panel rather than PID. Also I want to start heating my BK once the element is covered and may have my HLT still heating (until the water level drops too low) to maintain temp for sarge. As well as having cleanup water. Since I am in my pole barn and I don't have a hot water source out there. Depends on your individual needs.
Using the online calculator I discovered there really isn't a huge difference between 4500-5500W elements when looking at a 5 gallon boil. Times were within a couple minutes.
I do agree with the comment that if he wants to go with a 50a panel he should upgrade the Spa Panel. Here is why...
Lets say he actually has 238v and two 4500W elements
4500/238= 18.90A
18.90*2= 37.8A
40*.8=32A
So if the elements are running wide open which they most likely wouldn't be, but they could with a 50A panel. You would be looking at 37.8A load. Well you are most likely going to have other stuff running there as well. A pump or two maybe, PID (granted not a huge draw but a draw still). The point is everything you add it getting you closer to that 40A load. Then the last thing I put on there is the 32A which is what you have if you look at only doing an 80% load on the 40A breaker.
While you can say that you won't run both elements at 100% at the same time the thing you have to keep in mind is that if an element has power applied to it, it is pulling the 18.9A. A PID in manual mode at 50% doesn't mean it will only pull 9.45A. It means that it is being power cycled so it is on (at 100% load) for 50% of the time. So over the course of a minute it is on for 30 seconds at 100%. So if you had both elements on even in manual mode each at 50% you would have no way of controlling when they are actually on or off as the PIDs work independently. Same goes for a BCS application. This is partly why most 30A panels use a selector switch. One position is one element, the other position the other element. It prevents them both from coming on at the same time.
So going back to the OP question. With a 40A spa panel. I would go with a 30A control panel. If he later decides he wants to go 50A. It isn't the end of the world. He can buy the extra parts and upgrade it later. There will be some things though that won't convert over. Mainly the main power cord and plugs for it. ebrew offers an upgrade to the 30A kits that uses the same contactors and SSRs as the 50A kit. I would get those . My understanding is that they are smaller than what comes with the normal 30A kit anyhow and the capacity would be needed if you later went to 50A.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Good points above...I was assuming the 240 line would be dedicated and the 120v pumps and such would be on another line though. Anyone who's ever made toast and coffee at the same time plugged into the same outlet has already tested the limits of their wiring beyond spec.... I'm not saying its wise but a circuit designed and rated for 40 amps should be able to carry a load of the whole 40amps safely if its a dedicated circiut... otherwise why not call it a 32a circuit? All these double meaning double safety limits placed on top of each other just adds confusion to something that shouldn't be.
Just want to comment on the use of hot water from a hot water tank ..... that water is loaded with heavy metals and rust sedement from the bottom of the tank that willeffect your beer negatively and many tank less water heaters use lead solder or other materials and have a disclaimer that they are not safe for potable water... I learned this the hard way on my first aquarium as a kid... tons of alge from the metals in the water... later when replacing them finding at least a gallon of sediment and rust at the bottom...
Just want to comment on the use of hot water from a hot water tank ..... that water is loaded with heavy metals and rust sedement from the bottom of the tank that willeffect your beer negatively and many tank less water heaters use lead solder or other materials and have a disclaimer that they are not safe for potable water... I learned this the hard way on my first aquarium as a kid... tons of alge from the metals in the water... later when replacing them finding at least a gallon of sediment and rust at the bottom...
My intent for this panel is to run a 240volt 4500watt Rims tube with chugger pump and to run my keegle on a 5500 watt element. I dont have 50 amps. I have 40. The reason that I thought I would run both elements at the same time was so that I could be sparging and heating the kettle at the same time... I think it just hit me that you dont heat your madh while you sparge. 30 amps, one element at a time?
Since most people carry a Neutral wire along with the two hots for 240 there is no need for a separate 120V feed. Just take one of the hot legs and Neutral and now you have 120V for your pumps as long as you planned for it.
For the hot water tank. If you were mentioning that to me, I was talking the HLT. I am brewing in my pole barn so I only have a cold water source from the house in a buried PEX line and will be transferring water from the house RO system for brewing. I will do my sparge and then make hot water with the HLT for cleaning up things. Not using a water heater (tankless or otherwise).
It occurs to me that I just don't get it. Can someone give me basic order of operations for a 30 amp panel brew day? Heat strike water, dough in, recirculate, heat sparge water (where does this happen?), sparge, boil, etc... I have a firm grip on the process, I just don't get how you do it by running one element at a time. Does a 30 amp RIMS brew system assume a 120 volt RIMS element?
Thanks for all the interest. The Home theater guys never respond.
Jon
Thanks for all the interest. The Home theater guys never respond.
Jon
jeffmeh
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2009
- Messages
- 2,145
- Reaction score
- 216
So it depends on your process. Kal and many people say you need to work out your brew day to figure out your process. It can be a chicken before the egg type issue though. How do you know what your process is if you don't have a panel. For me I took paper and drew it out and bounced it off locals who electric brew. The suggested changes. Then I watched them brew and asked questions. So getting back to how it can be done...
You are right that most people will run a RIMS tube at 120V. A heating element is a big resistor. Resistors take the power and convert it to heat. In this application you can take a 5500W 240V element and hook up one hot and the neutral for 120V. From the numbers I have seen this cuts the rating of the element in 1/4. So it makes a 5500W element roughly a 1375 element. If you are using a RIMS tube then you don't have a large volume of wort in the tube at any point in time so it will heat it pretty quick. Way too fast if you were running the 5500W element at the full 240V because like I said before in most applications the PID is pulsing the power to the element so it is cycling on and off but when it is on it is on at 100% power (5500W) that is fine for a large volume like a HLT but in a small tube you could scorch the wort when it cycles on.
Personally I can't speak for the exact process for a RIMS as I don't plan on going that route. I am doing a HERMS so someone could chime in.
Rough numbers is 4500/240 = 18.75 A for the main element.
RIMS Tube. Lets say you did a 5500W element running on 120V
1375W (because it is 1/4 the rating at 120V) / 120V = 11.45A
So if both are on at the same time you are at 30.2A. So you will probably trip a 30A panel. But I think you said you have 40A to work with. If you built it to take advantage of the full 40A that you have you could get by.
The question is panel design. Again you need to work out your process. Do you want to heat the strike water in the BK and transfer to another vessel while you sparge to the BK? Then you could get by with the RIMS tube on while recirculating and heat the sparge in the BK at the same time. If you find that the temp of the sparge water drops too much sitting in the other vessel then run the sparge water back through the RIMS tube before dropping it on the grain in sparging. This will do the double duty of clearing out any wort from the RIMS tube and cleaning it with clear water.
Of course the easy way is to have a HLT with an element to heat your sparge water. Then do an element select switch to select the HLT and heat that for sparge while doing the recirculate. Then sparge to BK and switch element switch to BK and start boiling. The problem with this is you might have to move the temp probe from the HLT to the BK. Or have two (one in HLT one in BL) and use XLR connectors so you can swap the wire. Of course you could do a switch to select the temp probe as well. Or have separate PIDs for BK and HLT. Really depends on the physical size of your enclosure as to what you can fit in and equipment budget.
As you see, there are lots of options. You just need to figure out the process that works best for you. Maybe start out with the first one to minimize equipment cost and step up to the second method later. Really up to you.
