Wort clarity into the kettle

[Blazinlow86]

After reading some comments in a biab thread it got me thinking about one of them in particular. I mentioned that I have noticed that when I use my eherms traditional mash system the wort into the kettle is very clear like a finished beer would be however when I use my biab pilot setup the wort is very cloudy. A users reply to me was that it's not important as they use a fining in there boil making it irrelevant. Admittedly I've never really over thought this part of the process and have just gone with the standard and maybe old thinking that you want to leave as much undesirables behind at each stage as possible. A quick google search appeared to confirm there's definitely several scientifical reasons that clearer wort preboil is desirable for more than just clarity but it's over my head. So in more laymen terms why is clearer wort into the kettle the preferred method. Is it still preferred? Any pros that can chime in as to why they aim for the clearest wort into the kettle possible? Cheers



edit

to clarify as it seems were off to a rough start this discussion HAS NOTHING to do with the clarity of the end product. its about the clarity going into the boil and its effect on things other than finished clarity. i think we all understand beer will clear with time. cheers

 

[SoCal-Doug]

With BIAB there isn't much vorlauf (natural filtering by recirculating through the grain). It's one of those things that you ask 5 people you'll get 15 answers. The BIAB guys swear by it and the recirculating guys don't think very highly about it. But honestly, brewing is full of personal ideologies. Some things are very valid, and some things are pure myth.

Most of the "stuff" you'll get from the mash into the boil will eventually settle out and finings can be helpful in clarity. Having a good hot break and a quick cold break can also be helpful for final clarity. If you have crappy clarity, your beer will probably taste just as good but won't impress your non-brewing friends.

The biggest advantage to vorlauf is assuring you don't get any grain or husk material into the boil. This is because beyond about 180, it will release tannins giving an astringent taste (like sucking on a tea bag or sipping a cheap crappy merlot). In theory, the "bag" is supposed to filter any of the unwanted stuff out.

I would be very interested in an actual scientific comparison (analysis) of what a bag filters out versus what a vorlauf filters out. I have to assume a vorlauf is a far better [more dense] filter. Without hard numbers, I can't solidify an opinion on "ok cloudy" and "bad cloudy".

My opinions are, even though i'm a die-hard 3 vessel HERMS guy (and love that crystal clear wort in the kettle and sparging every last drop of goodness from the grains... But I digress). If its a quality bag and you follow good practices and processes, you should make perfectly good beer, albeit with a slightly lower mash efficiency on a large batch (maybe only a buck or two difference in cost). But you could also make perfectly good beer with cans of extract on your wife's stove, without ruining your back, or setting up ropes and pulleys

 

[LittleRiver]

I am not a pro, but since you have made this post in a home brewing forum, in response to a discussion thread I participate in, I will say this:

The thought that BIAB results in cloudy beer is BullSh_t.

See the picture of the beer I brewed using BIAB in the other thread, putting everything that was in the kettle into the fermenter, without using any finings. Had I used Irish Moss or gelatin it would have been even clearer.

 

[LittleRiver]

... If its a quality bag and you follow good practices and processes, you should make perfectly good beer, albeit with a slightly lower mash efficiency (maybe only a buck or two difference in cost)...

Wrong.

I BIAB and consistently exceed recipe targets with no recipe modifications. The beer is clear, and tastes great.

 

[yourlastchance89]

I biab. I've never suffered efficiency issues with the exception of once with a 20lb grainbill (5.5 gallon batch). As of yesterday I bought a cheap brew pump and I am now recirculating the wort a little bit during the mash and through the grain as it hangs to help filter and clear the wort. I don't do it for clarity, as that's never been an issue, but I do believe alot of protein break going into the fermenter has an effect on the flavor of the finished beer.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

yeah yeah… biab gets 100% efficiency and always beats recirculating systems. i've even seen threads where people claim higher than 100% efficiency. sorry, I forgot

 

[LittleRiver]

...i've even seen threads where people claim higher than 100% efficiency....

Fallible people can lie, but reliable measurements don't.

Both mathematical simulations and real world measurements of BIAB efficiency don't match up to your claims that BIAB is inefficient.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

omg… why do biab guys always take it so personally and get so defensive. re-read what I said. I did NOT say "inefficient" nor did I imply it. A point or two lower efficiency is not the end of the world and its no big deal.

 

[LittleRiver]

What you said was:

yeah yeah…biab gets 100% efficiency and always beats recirculating systems...

Which is obvious sarcasm. I am cool with the use of sarcasm. I am not cool with the underlying message, and perfectly justified in pointing out the fallacy of it.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I am not a pro, but since you have made this post in a home brewing forum, in response to a discussion thread I participate in, I will say this:

The thought that BIAB results in cloudy beer is BullSh_t.

See the picture of the beer I brewed using BIAB in the other thread, putting everything that was in the kettle into the fermenter, without using any finings. Had I used Irish Moss or gelatin it would have been even clearer.

Can we please stay on topic just once. Wort clarity into the kettle is the question. The question has NOTHING to do with your opinion on a finished biab beer. if you want to debate that please keep it in the biab forum. cheers

 

[McKnuckle]

I have done BIAB for nearly all of my 6 years of homebrewing. I generally have gotten clear beer and have not worried about exceptionally clear wort.

But the issue may not be just about visual clarity. I recently got hung up on a couple of Brulosophy experiments involving BIAB:

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/05/mash-methods-brew-in-a-bag-biab-vs-no-sparge-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/22/br...ag-has-on-beer-character-exbeeriment-results/

Now say what you want about Brulosophy (I'm not that interested in a debate ). But these had significant results both among the tasters and by visual evidence.

Most interesting to me was a perception of low hop utilization and flavor with BIAB. I have experienced this myself! One theory is that it may occur due to fatty acids and beta glucans from the mash bonding with hop oils and precipitating out of solution with trub. Presumably these compounds are trapped in the grain bed with a standard vorlauf.

I have done two things about this in my most recent brews: One, I've stopped squeezing the bag. Two, I am draining the mash from the tun to a separate kettle, using a fine filter to catch particles.

It's too early for results. But I am curious!

Anyway, BIAB produces clear beer, no question about that. Here's a recent pilsner of mine.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I have done BIAB for nearly all of my 6 years of homebrewing. I generally have gotten clear beer and have not worried about exceptionally clear wort.

But the issue may not be just about visual clarity. I recently got hung up on a couple of Brulosophy experiments involving BIAB:

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/05/mash-methods-brew-in-a-bag-biab-vs-no-sparge-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/22/br...ag-has-on-beer-character-exbeeriment-results/

Now say what you want about Brulosophy (I'm not that interested in a debate ). But these had significant results both among the tasters and by visual evidence.

Most interesting to me was a perception of low hop utilization and flavor with BIAB. I have experienced this myself! One theory is that it may occur due to minute particulate matter from the mash, perhaps proteins, bonding with hop oils and precipitating out of solution with trub. Presumably these bits are trapped in the grain bed with a standard vorlauf.

I have done two things about this in my most recent brews: One, I've stopped squeezing the bag. Two, I am draining the mash from the tun to a separate kettle, using a fine filter to catch particles.

It's too early for results. But I am curious!

Anyway, BIAB produces clear beer, no question about that. Here's a recent pilsner of mine.

View attachment 614272

thanks for the links and input. for clarification there is no debate that biab can make a clear end product nor is this question specifically about biab. its only about the difference clear wort in to the kettle makes and why its prefered. i only mentioned the biab part at the beginning because it was said that clear wort into the kettle was meaningless in a biab thread and that seemed to go against everything ive ever read which then got me thinking about it. cheers

 

[Vale71]

The biggest issue with turbid wort in the boil kettle is increased fatty acid extraction resulting in finished beer that will stale faster, so it's basically a stability issue. It might also result in the extraction of residual unconverted starch which again is detrimental to beer stability.
The particulate will of course drop out with time but the issue is rather with what you might extract from it during boil.

 

[RM-MN]

The biggest issue with turbid wort in the boil kettle is increased fatty acid extraction resulting in finished beer that will stale faster, so it's basically a stability issue. It might also result in the extraction of residual unconverted starch which again is detrimental to beer stability.
The particulate will of course drop out with time but the issue is rather with what you might extract from it during boil.

How much faster does the beer stale? I've only been able to keep beer for 2 years and haven't noticed any staling at that point with BIAB.

 

[Vale71]

I don't think I ever mentioned BIAB.

 

[McKnuckle]

The reason people keep bringing up BIAB is because it has the inherent attribute of less filtered wort. So people have experience with less filtered wort as a result of practicing BIAB, hence they are contributing to the thread.

There is probably less experience with unfiltered wort among the non-bag crowd, who most likely all vorlauf.

 

[Bobby_M]

I only have empirical and anecdotal points to contribute. My wort going into the kettle is turbid but going into the fermenter is very clean. Given all the other cold side handling techniques I employ, I have found very good long term stability. For exampe, I have a NEIPA that I kegged (and also beer gun bottle filled) in October that is still pouring fresh today. Obviously the hop aroma has dipped but there are no obvious signs of oxidation or malt degradation. I won a gold in November with a Doppelbock that will also be competing again soon so I'll see how that one has held up in a more objective sense.

 

[Vale71]

The reason people keep bringing up BIAB is because it has the inherent attribute of less filtered wort. So people have experience with less filtered wort as a result of practicing BIAB, hence they are contributing to the thread.

There is probably less experience with unfiltered wort among the non-bag crowd, who most likely all vorlauf.

Noooo. You don't say?

I was merely trying to elegantly avoid being dragged into a contentious discussion that is off-topic and for which I have no interest in contributing to.

 

[Vale71]

And for those interested in reading up on the topic here is a couple of links:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2006.tb00717.x
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2006.tb00716.x

According to the second paper it appears that turbidity is not that critical provided hot and cold trub formation and removal are adequate as fatty acids tend to separate through cold and hot trub absorption, thus not making it completely into the beer.

 

[Redpappy]

Very interesting.... I really have not looked at what my wort looks like prior to boil? Has anyone taken any pics of their wort?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Very interesting.... I really have not looked at what my wort looks like prior to boil? Has anyone taken any pics of their wort?

I use clear racking hose. I watch that at recirculation. I can see a big change from first runnings to few recirc cycles.

I'm vorlaufer though. No BIAB here. I had all the equipment before BIAB became popular.

My guess is you can help get clearer beer with BIAB if you keep the dust from cracked grain out of the bag. Maybe beat it like a carpet on the clothes line. That's would ring true even with conventional methods. Keep the flour like dust from ever getting to the mash tun or kettle.

 

[McKnuckle]

Take this as you will... I ran a process experiment recently where I made a mash with 100% chocolate malt (years ago when I had no clue, I bought 10 lbs of it). This was not to make beer. It was just to test some equipment.

I milled this to 0.025" on my Cereal Killer, just like I always do. I mashed in a kettle with a false bottom and a Wilser bag. I recirculated over the top of the mash for the full hour. I kept heat steady at a low temp setting on my Avantco induction cooktop.

When time was up, I gravity drained the wort through the pickup tube and ball valve into another kettle over a 200 micron bucket filter to capture fine particles. Then I pulled and hung the bag over the mash tun, let it continue to drain, and finally, I poured the remaining wort over the filter into the kettle.

Here is what was left in the mash tun - a bunch of chocolate malt sludge that I would never want in my boil. I believe it was all sitting on top of the grain bed, having been deposited there via recirculation over the course of the mash. It got dislodged and squished out the sides when I pulled the bag. When you BIAB, you will always disturb the grain bed if you pull the bag (which is standard process).

 

[Miraculix]

FINALLY!!!

A clear wort thread that is worth following.

Thanks for the statement at the beginning that this is not about clear beer, now I am all ears.

 

[eric19312]

Take this as you will... I ran a process experiment recently where I made a mash with 100% chocolate malt (years ago when I had no clue, I bought 10 lbs of it). This was not to make beer. It was just to test some equipment.

I milled this to 0.025" on my Cereal Killer, just like I always do. I mashed in a kettle with a false bottom and a Wilser bag. I recirculated over the top of the mash for the full hour. I kept heat steady at a low temp setting on my Avantco induction cooktop.

When time was up, I gravity drained the wort through the pickup tube and ball valve into another kettle over a 200 micron bucket filter to capture fine particles. Then I pulled and hung the bag over the mash tun, let it continue to drain, and finally, I poured the remaining wort over the filter into the kettle.

Here is what was left in the mash tun - a bunch of chocolate malt sludge that I would never want in my boil. I believe it was all sitting on top of the grain bed, having been deposited there via recirculation over the course of the mash. It got dislodged and squished out the sides when I pulled the bag. When you BIAB, you will always disturb the grain bed if you pull the bag (which is standard process).

View attachment 614879 View attachment 614880

What gravity did you get? Maybe that sludge would of converted into soluble sugars in presence of enzymes.

 

[eric19312]

I use clear racking hose. I watch that at recirculation. I can see a big change from first runnings to few recirc cycles.

I'm vorlaufer though. No BIAB here. I had all the equipment before BIAB became popular.

My guess is you can help get clearer beer with BIAB if you keep the dust from cracked grain out of the bag. Maybe beat it like a carpet on the clothes line. That's would ring true even with conventional methods. Keep the flour like dust from ever getting to the mash tun or kettle.

I think most of the dust is convertible starch. I always tap my buckets to make sure all that gets into my mash but I’m a recirculator...