Worst day ever!!!

[wyowolf]

After 20 plus batches...today was the worst. One of those everything that can go wrong did days...

First wake up early to get done early...nope...go downstairs at 630 and fire up BCS, already filled with water from last night...can't adjust set point!!! Wtf@#$%...

After overy an hour to fix that issue...by now it's nearly 9 ...

Using my new refractometer. ..check pre boil. ..1.025 not too bad...fast easy...little low ...

After losing various fittings and hoses...

Post boil...1.038!! @#$%... first time ever I had that low???
German Pilsner...15 pounds grain...
I did do step mash...145 20 m...158 30...then 170 10. That's the only thing I haven't done before...

Sigh...pitched then in fridge to cool to 50 to pitch yeast...
Probably fridge will quit...

I love brew days!!

At least I can laugh about it now...

 

[beernutz]

That is an interesting mash schedule. What is the thought process behind it?

 

[wyowolf]

One of the other threads suggested it for pilsners...so thought I would try it.

 

[Amadeo38]

That is an interesting mash schedule. What is the thought process behind it?

It is also the mash schedule recommended by NB for their Kölsch kit, with the addition of a 122° protein rest at the beginning. Tried it for the first time this Friday and my post-boil OG was only .004 gravity points low from their estimation. I had family coming over or I'd have done an additional cold sparge and probably gotten even closer. It did knock my efficiency down about 7-10% doing the step mash though...

 

[VladOfTrub]

Maybe the refracto is out of whack. Next time stretch out the maltose rest. Then, raise the temp to 155F for 15 minutes and raise temp to 162F for 15 minutes. Alpha II and Alpha I temperatures will be covered. Mash out (170F) didn't cause the problem. If anything, during the high temperature some of the complex starch would burst releasing amylopectin. The only problem that will occur is that enzymes will denature and Limit dextrin will not be released. If you want to play around, next time dough in at 95F and allow mash pH to stabilize and add sour malt to reduce mash pH to at least 5.5. Remove a small portion of the mash and step it 122F for 20 minutes. Then, raise the temperature to 155F, wait 20 minutes. Then, use iodine to determine if saccharification occurred. The iodine should be reddish/mahogany. If not wait another 10 minutes and test again. If the iodine is blue/black after 30 minutes, not to worry. Then, boil the mash until hot break forms, skimming off the break. Use the decoction to raise the main mash to the maltose rest temperature. Glucose will be released when liquefication of simple starch, amylose, occurs during the rest at 155F and it will convert into maltose and maltotriose during the maltose rest (beta). Beta is weak and it does not hurt to stretch out the maltose rest period. When the decoction is boiled, complex starch will burst and during the higher temperature rest periods Limit dextrin will be released, forming body. There will be enough "sweetness" formed when alpha liquefies the reducing end of the amylose chain. Body will form during dextrinization. Good job on trying the step mash method!! The temperatures covered beta and alpha temp range.

 

[wyowolf]

The refractor and hydro agreed. I used the Tiber Pilsen recipe. 15 lbs malt and 5 Oz saurmalts. Followed exactly. Except for mash schedule. 16 gal of spring water per beer smith. His OG came out to it think 1.047...beersmith gave me lower numbers.

 

[schematix]

That is an interesting mash schedule. What is the thought process behind it?

Hochkurz mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

I run this mash sequence on all of my lager brews. Does a good job of making a crisp clean beer that still has body.

Mash schedule was recently discussed here as well: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=579685

 

[dpeters]

I make a German Pils with about the same mash temps except the 145 is done for 40 min. and my FG comes out around 1.049ish. That mash schedule has by far produced the best results for my German style lagers without having to get into a decoction mash. I double grind my grain you may want to take a look at your grind also, 1.038 just does not seem right. Water profile and PH are also very important.

 

[wyowolf]

Yes that's the schedule I followed.

Hochkurz mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

I run this mash sequence on all of my lager brews. Does a good job of making a crisp clean beer that still has body.

Mash schedule was recently discussed here as well: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=579685

 

[wyowolf]

I did use a different lbhs for my grain...first time using them. Seemed fine...they even vac bagged it which was first.

 

[tootal]

If you're going to step mash then try doughing in at 127-131 for 20 minutes then raise to 145 for 20 then 158 for 30 or until your iodine test is good. Then go to 168 or so for 10 and then sparge. The protein rest will help with body and head retention and our modern malts prefer 131 over the old 122 temps of less modified malts.

I used this method on my Oktoberfest and took a first.

 

[schematix]

I did use a different lbhs for my grain...first time using them. Seemed fine...they even vac bagged it which was first.

Any chance you weighed it first? Unless your thermometer was way off you should have been ok. Saw another thread recently where someone was way low and when they remade the same recipe their OG was back where expected.

 

[wyowolf]

Temps are perfect. Calibrated here at work...no I didn't weigh it...maybe I should start though. First time I had this issue...seems reasonable though.

 

[schematix]

Temps are perfect. Calibrated here at work...no I didn't weigh it...maybe I should start though. First time I had this issue...seems reasonable though.

Well good news is that with this style you'll end up with an extremely drinkable brew... might not be what you wanted but it'll be a guzzler for sure.

I don't do kits or pre-weighs anymore, but even when i did i always weighed it out gram by gram. Not worth risking someone elses mistake for a days work.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"The protein rest will help with body and head retention and our modern malts prefer 131 over the old 122 temps of less modified malts."

Protein is a very wide term and protein rest is a misnomer. Body is produced during dextrinization and when the right protein is introduced, during aging it doesn't drop out taking body and hops with it. The higher temp is a proteolytic rest, proteinase works on beta glucan, releasing glucose, reducing mash viscosity. A malt data sheet indicates protein level. High protein, less sugar content. The rest at 130F releases sugar from the malt early on. Saccharification can take place at the temp. Depending on the maltster and the season, it is not unusual to find that Weyermann pils floor malt to be at 10% protein and Kolbach 38 to 41. Weyermann recommends 122F be used. The rest at 122F takes place in the small volume first decoction. When performed in the entire mash, it becomes a bit over done. When performed at 122F albumin is released. Albumin is foam protein. In the decoction method the first decoction is used to raise the main mash to 130F. The glucose released is converted during the maltose rest.The second decoction raises the main mash to maltose rest. Modification and protein level determines malt quality and they vary in modern malt. The only things which made malt modern is that standardized tests were adopted throughout the world and a malt data sheet. Malt is malt, the data sheet is the road map for the brewer. Most home brewers do not know that one exists.

 

[wyowolf]

Oh it will get drunk for sure

I finally got the temps down to 50 and pitched the yeast. I made 4 starters so hopefully thats enough, with the low OG probably it will be.
of course now its summer and the water is back to 70 degrees... was nice when it was 50

I really need to get an easier cleaning method... maybe CIP.
one thing I did do, is put the basket back in, then recirc through that. I use a hop spider as well. But recirc back through the basket got pretty much all the big stuff so I wasnt worried about the plate chiller..

thanks for all the links... very interesting....at least with my BCS rig I can step temps up and down easily...

Well good news is that with this style you'll end up with an extremely drinkable brew... might not be what you wanted but it'll be a guzzler for sure.

I don't do kits or pre-weighs anymore, but even when i did i always weighed it out gram by gram. Not worth risking someone elses mistake for a days work.

 

[wyowolf]

very interesting thank you, your right , I had no idea it existed either... learned alot today...

"The protein rest will help with body and head retention and our modern malts prefer 131 over the old 122 temps of less modified malts."

Protein is a very wide term and protein rest is a misnomer. Body is produced during dextrinization and when the right protein is introduced, during aging it doesn't drop out taking body and hops with it. The higher temp is a proteolytic rest, proteinase works on beta glucan, releasing glucose, reducing mash viscosity. A malt data sheet indicates protein level. High protein, less sugar content. The rest at 130F releases sugar from the malt early on. Saccharification can take place at the temp. Depending on the maltster and the season, it is not unusual to find that Weyermann pils floor malt to be at 10% protein and Kolbach 38 to 41. Weyermann recommends 122F be used. The rest at 122F takes place in the small volume first decoction. When performed in the entire mash, it becomes a bit over done. When performed at 122F albumin is released. Albumin is foam protein. In the decoction method the first decoction is used to raise the main mash to 130F. The glucose released is converted during the maltose rest.The second decoction raises the main mash to maltose rest. Modification and protein level determines malt quality and they vary in modern malt. The only things which made malt modern is that standardized tests were adopted throughout the world and a malt data sheet. Malt is malt, the data sheet is the road map for the brewer. Most home brewers do not know that one exists.

 

[doug293cz]

... The higher temp is a proteolytic rest, proteinase works on beta glucan, releasing glucose, reducing mash viscosity. A malt data sheet indicates protein level. High protein, less sugar content. The rest at 130F releases sugar from the malt early on. Saccharification can take place at the temp. Depending on the maltster and the season, it is not unusual to find that Weyermann pils floor malt to be at 10% protein and Kolbach 38 to 41. Weyermann recommends 122F be used. The rest at 122F takes place in the small volume first decoction. When performed in the entire mash, it becomes a bit over done. When performed at 122F albumin is released. Albumin is foam protein. In the decoction method the first decoction is used to raise the main mash to 130F. The glucose released is converted during the maltose rest.The second decoction raises the main mash to maltose rest. ...

Vlad, do you have any references that confirm glucose (a mono-saccharide) is recombined to maltose (a di-saccharide) at any point in the mash? Everything I have seen indicates poly-saccharides are broken down during the mash to smaller poly-saccharides (starch and dextrins), tri-saccharides (maltriose), di-saccharides (maltose), and mono-saccharides (glucose.) I've seen nothing on recombining glucose to maltose.

Brew on

 

[VladOfTrub]

It is molecular in nature. Beta chops off two molecules of glucose from the reducing end of the simple starch chain after amylose is liquefied by Alpha at a 1-4 link and a di-saccharide, maltose forms. When beta chops off three glucose molecules, maltotriose is formed. During each circumstance the molecules are combined with a water molecule. Wolfe's 1958 edition goes into detail. Noonan may have something written about it. I think that Fix and Bamforth mentions it. Starch is the container that hold the poly-saccharides it converts to nothing. Starch is liquefied and when it disappears sugar is left. After that it is conversion. Basically, enzymes soften starch so that the plant can get at the fuel.
The finest malt can be crushed with the fingers. I used Budvar in the mid 80's and it was easily crushed with the fingers, it was under modified, Kolbach 32 to 34, low temp kilned and around 8% protein. It was 80 dollars a sack at that time when standard brewers malt was 15 dollars a sack. Enzymatically it was very rich.
During the 130F rest proteinase will reduce Beta Glucan and release glucose, (Wolfe Seibel Noonan) Alpha is working slowly at the same time, saccharification will occur. If beta glucanase was present, the temperature would be lower than 130F. However, amylase works in the pie hole on starch at 98.6F, turning it sweet due to the inherent sugar released during liquefication. An iodine test can be used after the rest at 130F and it will exhibit little color change. It happens with Weyermann floor malt. When iodine does not change color after the rest at 130F I draw out the maltose rest and slow down Alpha. Iodine cannot be used to determine the difference between saccharification and conversion. Some of the books written about brewing are written by home brewers turned author and marketer and info in the books came from abstracts from the IOB. The info is taken from testing methods and only from the abstract and the info became gospel and home brewers get spun up about it. The three primary testing temperatures can be found in every recipe for home made beer with an explanation of what the beer will be like when the temperatures are used. PT Barnum was correct. During the past 30 years I have used a journal, hand written by a well known brewmaster. I received the book from the man that taught me how to brew beer, it was handed down to him and then to me. What is written in it will not be found in text books. A brewmaster tells no one is secrets same as a moonshiner. I own Wolfe's 1958 edition. After it was translated into English the focus was placed on marketing, and brewing methods were shortened and new methods were born. All of which revolved around the term modern malt and around the new generation of brewers, easily convinced by a marketer that Mother Nature is a dullard.

 

[passedpawn]

It is molecular in nature. Beta chops off two molecules of glucose from the reducing end of the simple starch chain after amylose is liquefied by Alpha at a 1-4 link and a di-saccharide, maltose forms. When beta chops off three glucose molecules, maltotriose is formed. During each circumstance the molecules are combined with a water molecule. Wolfe's 1958 edition goes into detail. Noonan may have something written about it. I think that Fix and Bamforth mentions it. Starch is the container that hold the poly-saccharides it converts to nothing. Starch is liquefied and when it disappears sugar is left. After that it is conversion. Basically, enzymes soften starch so that the plant can get at the fuel.
The finest malt can be crushed with the fingers. I used Budvar in the mid 80's and it was easily crushed with the fingers, it was under modified, Kolbach 32 to 34, low temp kilned and around 8% protein. It was 80 dollars a sack at that time when standard brewers malt was 15 dollars a sack. Enzymatically it was very rich.
During the 130F rest proteinase will reduce Beta Glucan and release glucose, (Wolfe Seibel Noonan) Alpha is working slowly at the same time, saccharification will occur. If beta glucanase was present, the temperature would be lower than 130F. However, amylase works in the pie hole on starch at 98.6F, turning it sweet due to the inherent sugar released during liquefication. An iodine test can be used after the rest at 130F and it will exhibit little color change. It happens with Weyermann floor malt. When iodine does not change color after the rest at 130F I draw out the maltose rest and slow down Alpha. Iodine cannot be used to determine the difference between saccharification and conversion. Some of the books written about brewing are written by home brewers turned author and marketer and info in the books came from abstracts from the IOB. The info is taken from testing methods and only from the abstract and the info became gospel and home brewers get spun up about it. The three primary testing temperatures can be found in every recipe for home made beer with an explanation of what the beer will be like when the temperatures are used. PT Barnum was correct. During the past 30 years I have used a journal, hand written by a well known brewmaster. I received the book from the man that taught me how to brew beer, it was handed down to him and then to me. What is written in it will not be found in text books. A brewmaster tells no one is secrets same as a moonshiner. I own Wolfe's 1958 edition. After it was translated into English the focus was placed on marketing, and brewing methods were shortened and new methods were born. All of which revolved around the term modern malt and around the new generation of brewers, easily convinced by a marketer that Mother Nature is a dullard.

That was a fine post and rant all wrapped up in a neat package. I like!

 

[beernutz]

Hochkurz mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

I run this mash sequence on all of my lager brews. Does a good job of making a crisp clean beer that still has body.

Mash schedule was recently discussed here as well: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=579685

Thanks, I will have to try a Hochkurz.

 

[wyowolf]

OK PT 2....

Tried to make a Westvelveteen 12 clone here in Recipes section.

Weighed grain, 15 pounds just like calls for. Used mix of RO Spring water.
Mashed for 1hr at 149 exactly like recipe. Ck preboil gravity 1.047 not too bad BeerSmith calls for 1.050.

Boil for 90 min, did additions etc. check PB gravity... 1.070!! should be 1.090!! Damn it...

The only thing I can figure is the crush from this new BH is different somehow...

I have a Heffe that I brewed the first time that came out perfectly and will try that again, from the place where I usually buy my grains and see how that goes...

really frustrating