Festbier World's Best Oktoberfest

[TrickyDick]

I ended up doing my dopplebock last weekend. There is a definite carmelization I think that occurs during the boil, as the decoction part of the mash was significantly different and richer in color than the main mash. My Oktoberfest is lacking that character I think, from my step mash, and also lacking in the typical malty flavors. I may fortify my kegged Oktoberfest with 5% of the dopplebock when it is finished, in order to try and restore that. I will experiment first with a blend in the glass of course. I may just end up calling in an amber lager, or Septemberfest; like an Oktoberfest, just not quite there.

So I would definitely do the decoction. If you absolutely cannot do a decoction, I would suggest adding some crystal malts and possibly some other specialty malts to lend more maltiness to this brew.

TD

 

[jtratcliff]

I think Melanoidin malt is the what you typically use to emulate the effects of decoction... maybe a 1/4 lb added to the grain bill for a 5 gal batch... But there is some evidence that a decoction doesn't add that much to a beer:

see the conclusions on pg 28 of this presentation by Denny Conn:
http://518124.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf

 

[TrickyDick]

I think Melanoidin malt is the what you typically use to emulate the effects of decoction... maybe a 1/4 lb added to the grain bill for a 5 gal batch... But there is some evidence that a decoction doesn't add that much to a beer:

see the conclusions on pg 28 of this presentation by Denny Conn:
http://518124.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf

Thanks for sharing.

I do not agree with you colclusion: decoction doesn't add that much. I read the PDF, and there was a preference for the decocted brew. There were no real malt accentuated styles, unless you consider the Munich Dunkel, but I'm not a German beer expert. I think there is clear proof the maltiness was enhanced. There does not appear to be any descriptor of the tasters qualifications either, though perhaps I missed that. I like the scientific method, but I am not certain that the union of no preference responders with the non-decocted responders is a valid statistical assumption.

I will say that the recipe posted in THIS thread, as brewed by myself, is definitely not to BJCP style. I could be my boil was weak but I suspect it is the lack of decoction and doing a step mash without adding any crystal malts to compensate as you suggest. While decoction mashing is laborious, it appears to have benefit in both malt flavor contribution, color contribution, and also boosts efficiency in my system by nearly 7%. That said, am I not going to rush into doing another decoction anytime soon, because it took a very long time, and there was significant tieg, slowing the sparge.

each should decide for themselves on their system I think, though I do appreciate the PDF. thanks for sharing that.

TD

 

[jtratcliff]

Maybe I should have said "some suggestion" instead of "some evidence" I agree lumping the "no preference" in with "preferred no-decocted version" is a bit wonky. But it does at least suggest that the "improvement" due to decoction isn't dramatic, or more people would have preferred it, presumably.

Just pointing out that if you can't (or don't want to) do the decoction, some folks say you might not be missing out on too much. Especially if you can toss in some melanoidin malt.

In Kaiser's decoction video (part 3 at around 8:39, ) he show's that a double decoction doesn't add much in the way color. But yeah, extra flavor is the goal. The efficiency boost is a bonus too.

I didn't find my decoction that laborious but I only did a single mashout decoction (but I did otherwise step the mash for protein and sacchrification rests). I still think it's worth doing. If only to say that you've done it

I've only done 1 decoction, myself. And never side by side in the same recipe. The one I did (single mashout decoction) came out delicious and I will definitely decoct again when I re-brew that same recipe.

 

[TrickyDick]

Heh!


I'm in the me boat as well. I only have done one decoction mash, it was a single decoction at that, though a large one. Try doing a decoction earlier next time. You will pick up some efficiency points ill bet from boiling the mash, liberating additional starches not accessible from just crushing/milling (at least that is what I think is happening). The mash out decoction is also supposed to be thin as opposed to thick so little different effect and result I think.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk I hope and think your realize that. I was rather hoping that I disliked the effects of the decoction, but to the contrary I was rather happy I had extra efficiency for the doppelbock. Hopefully it'll be an awesome beer. I've never tried a doppelbock any other way, so a side by side is not possible. I think as far as malty styles, the dopplebock is one of the kings of the malty brew styles, so I hope this comes out in the glass when its all through. Lacking a control for comparative purposes, its hard to say for sure the decoction was key for my brew. However, having brewed this exact recipe for Oktoberfest several week previous (I think I'm into week 5 of lagering now), that sample indicate it is off for style from doing a regular step mash. I agree adding crystal and possibly melanoiden malt might help. I wouldn't do this brew again without either a decoction, or a modification of the grist to include some crystal and possibly melanoiden malts to make up for the missing maltiness that my step mash lacked... More of an amber lager.

TD

 

[jtratcliff]

No jerkiness detected or assumed

Exchange of ideas, information, and opinions is why I come to HBT.

 

[MacrosNZ]

Yeeuhhh!

 

[MacrosNZ]

Well it seems to have taken hold =\

 

[TrickyDick]

Well it seems to have taken hold =\

Did you use the mangrove jack yeast on this one?

Next time I try this, def gonna do the decoction instead of step mash. Mine is more like an amber lager than an Oktoberfest.

 

[MacrosNZ]

No, two packets of saflager 34w70 rehydrated.

Mine was out of recipe anyway. I didn't get the efficiency I needed (converted from F to C incorrectly during mash) so had to add in light DME.

 

[hbr2547]

No, two packets of saflager 34w70 rehydrated.

Mine was out of recipe anyway. I didn't get the efficiency I needed (converted from F to C incorrectly during mash) so had to add in light DME.

Excited to try my first double decoction. Read thru posts and watched online videos...to confirm thick part of mash for all but mash out decoction which is thin part?

Also, any tweaks to recipe ct? Thanks in advance this beer looks amazing!!!

 

[TrickyDick]

Excited to try my first double decoction. Read thru posts and watched online videos...to confirm thick part of mash for all but mash out decoction which is thin part?

Also, any tweaks to recipe ct? Thanks in advance this beer looks amazing!!!

No expert on decoction mashing, but I just did my first (for a different beer) and shortened to a single decoction. Here are some tips.

1.) plan for plenty of ADDITIONAL time during the brew day, three extra hours is not unreasonable.
2.) get a long handled ladle that holds 16-32 oz to make decoction a easy to pull without making a mess. I got one at amazon 32oz, SS under $20
3.) if you recirculate your mash, with direct fired mash tun, be prepared for the main mash to stick while you are waiting for conversion on the decoction. Consider use of rice hulls. Oh and also, when you are recirculating your mash prior to run off and sparging, you might need to "cut" the mash due to the probable massive amounts of teig that will be covering the grains, like a thick blanket of goo. Next time I intend to add some rice hulls to mine. Be sure to pre soak them so as not to lose efficiency, or add them first or while heating the dough in water.
4.) took WAAAYYY longer to convert the decocted THICK mash than said in recipe, perhaps because my decoction was too thick? I added back a couple quarts of the main mash liquid (which contains the enzymes) to promote faster conversion. Took over an hour. For me, and that was before brining the decoction to a boil.
5.) be sure to boil that decoction for a good 30-45 minutes. YUM! Stir to prevent scorching.
6.) when adding back to main mash, if you've scorched any crud in the decoction, try to leave that behind. Watch those temps as well. Beersmith did not accurately model my temp changes from the decoction and I needed to add ALL THE decoction back in plus heat it some to get to proper temp.
7.) you may need to adjust your main mash temp (like I did) so keep some boiling water ready just in case, unless you can directly heat your mash tun.

All in all, some reasonable tips that might save you some time. Be prepared for some extra efficiency!

For me, since my first decoction was so massive, quite nearly all the grains, I opted to cancel the second decoction (for mash out) and just did my recirculated mash with direct fire mash tun. Plus I got started late and was exhausted.

Good luck!

TD

 

[hbr2547]

No expert on decoction mashing, but I just did my first (for a different beer) and shortened to a single decoction. Here are some tips.

1.) plan for plenty of ADDITIONAL time during the brew day, three extra hours is not unreasonable.
2.) get a long handled ladle that holds 16-32 oz to make decoction a easy to pull without making a mess. I got one at amazon 32oz, SS under $20
3.) if you recirculate your mash, with direct fired mash tun, be prepared for the main mash to stick while you are waiting for conversion on the decoction. Consider use of rice hulls. Oh and also, when you are recirculating your mash prior to run off and sparging, you might need to "cut" the mash due to the probable massive amounts of teig that will be covering the grains, like a thick blanket of goo. Next time I intend to add some rice hulls to mine. Be sure to pre soak them so as not to lose efficiency, or add them first or while heating the dough in water.
4.) took WAAAYYY longer to convert the decocted THICK mash than said in recipe, perhaps because my decoction was too thick? I added back a couple quarts of the main mash liquid (which contains the enzymes) to promote faster conversion. Took over an hour. For me, and that was before brining the decoction to a boil.
5.) be sure to boil that decoction for a good 30-45 minutes. YUM! Stir to prevent scorching.
6.) when adding back to main mash, if you've scorched any crud in the decoction, try to leave that behind. Watch those temps as well. Beersmith did not accurately model my temp changes from the decoction and I needed to add ALL THE decoction back in plus heat it some to get to proper temp.
7.) you may need to adjust your main mash temp (like I did) so keep some boiling water ready just in case, unless you can directly heat your mash tun.

All in all, some reasonable tips that might save you some time. Be prepared for some extra efficiency!

For me, since my first decoction was so massive, quite nearly all the grains, I opted to cancel the second decoction (for mash out) and just did my recirculated mash with direct fire mash tun. Plus I got started late and was exhausted.

Good luck!

TD

Thanks for the tips

 

[hbr2547]

Brewed ALL day today and just finished(chilling to 50 to pitch). Ended up getting 91 percent efficiency - jeez - didn't expect that high I'm usually a 75 percent guy

 

[TrickyDick]

Told ya! How did it taste? Congrats on the first decoction brew.

Td

 

[hbr2547]

Told ya! How did it taste? Congrats on the first decoction brew.

Td

Tasted good and the smell was even better!!!! Here is a pick



Not a great pic but shows the great color

 

[TrickyDick]

I should post a pic of mine done with step mash. Not nearly as colorful as what that looks like.


TD

 

[oasisbliss]

Do it. I did and it was delicious. I mashed @ 155F. OG 1.054, FG 1.012

Shelly, did you do a 2 hour mash ?---- Would a 90 min mash and 90 min boil be ok ?
what do you recommend? I will be doing the single infusion for sure. Wont have time to do a decoction for a couple of months

thanks

 

[TrickyDick]

Shelly, did you do a 2 hour mash ?---- Would a 90 min mash and 90 min boil be ok ?
what do you recommend? I will be doing the single infusion for sure. Wont have time to do a decoction for a couple of months

thanks

I know folks have done this without decoction, including me, and liked it. If it was me, and I was skipping the decoction, I'd use the grain bill from beirmuncher oktoberFAST ale, which has a bit more complexity and malts to flesh out the malt flavor. I haven't brewed that one myself, but go take a look.

TD

 

[shelly_belly]

Shelly, did you do a 2 hour mash ?---- Would a 90 min mash and 90 min boil be ok ?
what do you recommend? I will be doing the single infusion for sure. Wont have time to do a decoction for a couple of months

thanks

I did a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil.

 

[oasisbliss]

Thanks Shelly, did it turn out awesome when doing a single infusion?

Trick, I will try that one as well!

 

[shelly_belly]

Definitely was awesome. It was the first beer I've made that I did not give any away. That would have meant less for me. I even had to ration myself on the last gallon - I did not want it to end. Mind you though, this is probably my favorite style of beer.

 

[oasisbliss]

Perfect ! - thanks for the feedback

 

[TrickyDick]

Update.

My brew is starting to improve with some time. I thought I had lagered it long enough (8 weeks) but I guess not. It continues to improve... Not as malty as I had hoped however.

TD

 

[Ply318ci]

Brewed this today (2 gallon batch) but I don't have The ability to ferment in the low 50's for lager yeast, so I am using S-05 in one gallon and Munich yeast (yes a wheat yeast just for poops and giggles) in the other gallon. I am keeping them in a cold water bath to keep fermentation temps down to the low 60's. (best i can do) hoping for clean fermentation and then "Lagering" in the fridge for a few weeks. Very excited.

 

[asco]

Hey... I have made This beer and it is now lagering at correct temparaturs, have been sitting there for 6 weeks now, so going to bottle ind 2....

But are there enough yest to carb at This time? Dont have any exstra yeast ....

Also i have tried to taste it and it seams a bit thin...and the color is not as the first FOTO ind here... What could be wrong? I did make it as single infusion???

 

[TrickyDick]

Also i have tried to taste it and it seams a bit thin...and the color is not as the first FOTO ind here... What could be wrong? I did make it as single infusion???

The last two words I think is the reason why. Personally, I think the relatively simple grist needs the decoction to intensify flavors and bring a little complexity to the malt profile. I don't think that a single infusion is going to be able to duplicate the effects of boiling the grain. Also, a low mash temp can promote a thin beer as you probably already know. What temp was your infusion? I did a step mash and noticed the same thin characteristics you're describing. I think some extended lagering is possibly helpful as well.

As far as bottling concerns. If you are worried about not enough yeast to bottle condition/carbonate, you could always add more yeast, and let it stay in the secondary until you have some.

TD

 

[oasisbliss]

Definitely was awesome. It was the first beer I've made that I did not give any away. That would have meant less for me. I even had to ration myself on the last gallon - I did not want it to end. Mind you though, this is probably my favorite style of beer.

Shelly, what ferm schedule did you use?

 

[shelly_belly]

I did 2 weeks @ 48F, 2 weeks at room temp (low 60s) and then racked to a keg and lagered for 5 months mostly in the low 30s. I put this beer on top of full yeast cake of wlp 802 czech budejovice from a pilsner I kegged the same day.

 

[oasisbliss]

I did 2 weeks @ 48F, 2 weeks at room temp (low 60s) and then racked to a keg and lagered for 5 months mostly in the low 30s. I put this beer on top of full yeast cake of wlp 802 czech budejovice from a pilsner I kegged the same day.

sounds good - thanks
could I take the 5 months down to 2 or 3? or is the 5 a necessity?