Woo hoo! Mid-70s Efficiency!

[the_bird]

For anyone who's heard me whine, you know that's good for me!

Did a quick batch this morning to have something done for x-mas that the Molson drinkers might be able to stomach. Simple pale ale:

9# Maris Otter
3# Munich
1# Crystal 20L
0.5# Wheat malt

Bittered to about 30-35 IBUs; Magnum in the boil, then 0.40 ounce additions of both Cascade and Amarillo at 15, 5, and 1 minutes. I won't dry hop it.

Looking basically for a strong, strong malt character with a restained bitterness but a good amount of fresh, domestic, citrus-ey flavor.

Was shooting for 1.049 OG, assuming 60% efficiency and 6 gallons into the fermenter. Hit 1.060, with about 6.25 gallons into the fermented (had to put a half-gallon in a growler to ferment separately). Looks like about 74% - 77% efficiency, depending on how exact the volume measurement is).

Of note: I intentionally did a very simple recipe so I wouldn't have much rto screw up; no decoctions. Did very little wheat so my mash wouldn't get f*ckered up with the sparge. I actually remembered my PH buffer, and even checked my PH during the mash (5.8 at 70°, which sounds right as per Palmer). Used the Barley Crusher at the factory setting and got a gorgeous crush. Very little drinking, so I wouldn't screw anything up.

Basically, just tried to do a clean beer both with regards to process and to recipe, and it seems to have worked. I can live with 75%.

Yeah! I can stop whining now!

 

[Orfy]

Good.

KISS baby.

I'm down in the mid 60s from thr high 80s.
I'm not too worried though. I'm using a grain that cost me £10 where as I normally pay £25.
I'm sure it's the grain so I'm not worried. I'm getting consistant 65% so I just dial it in. It's not like I have to pay for more grain. I have 100lb of the stuff.

 

[the_bird]

Forgot; I hit my mash temp almost balls-on; shooting for 154°; hit 155 without having to make any extra adjustments.

 

[ScoutMan]

I actually remembered my PH buffer, and even checked my PH during the mash (5.8 at 70°, which sounds right as per Palmer).

What was the make up of your water and what did you do to correct it? I just used my new BC on the factory setting, looked great, but only wound up in the low 60% range for efficiency. Mash temps were spot on. I just submitted a sample of my well water to the lab in town, but have yet to hear anything back. Congrats on your success.

 

[the_bird]

Well, I used the buffer, and from what I was reading 5.8 is a good # when measured at room temp (which I did). The lower number (5.2 - 5.5) is for when measured at mash temps, which I did not do. I paniced a little when I saw the 5.8, even put up a new thread about it, until I read Palmer a bit closer. I still want to learn more about this aspect of brewing (part of my Phase III, which is perfecting some recipes and locking down my processes).

 

[Bernie Brewer]

I'm happier than hell with a 75%. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[the_bird]

I'm happier than hell with a 75%. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Agreed. 75%'s been my goal, I'm not going to knock myself out getting to 80% - I just need to be able to hit 75% with consistency.

The other thing is - new hydrometer. There's a CHANCE (no evidence) that the old one was calibrated wrong (paper slipped or something), but it broke before I could check it. It was the one I got in my first kit, so I can't complain - but it would be nice to know if my efficiency's been higher all along.

A bad hydrometer would explain why my Belgian seemed to attenuate so freakishly well (down to 1.004, from 1.064 IIRC - in any case, 92% attenuation). Those numbers would make sense on both ends if it was, for example, 1.070 down to 1.010 (70% efficiency, 85% attenuation).

 

[Brewsmith]

Congrats man. When you can hit it consistantly, it will be a big relief and make brew days go easier. I'v got my system dialed in pretty good, and the LHBS crush has been consistant, so I usually plan on about 78%. I'd be completely happy with 75% if I could hit it every time.

 

[eviljafar]

Forgot; I hit my mash temp almost balls-on;

Why weren't your balls on?

 

[Cheesefood]

Congrats Bird!

I think the "no drinking" had as much to do with your good brew day as anything else.

 

[Yooper]

That's great! I'm jealous. Since I don't have a mill, my efficiency is all over the place, from 60% once to 80% once. Most of the time now, I'm around 68-70%, which I can live with if it's consistent. But I hate never really being able to plan for an exact IBU/GU ratio since I can't really plan on a specific efficiency!

Good for you!

 

[Djanvk]

how do you test efficiency?

 

[the_bird]

The simple way; I change the assumed efficiency on BeerSmith until the calculated OG matches what I achieved (adjusting the volume as well). It's simplified, not perfect, but I'm pretty sure it's an accurate calculation since I have effectively no dead space in the mash tun and very little in the keggle. One of my goals for next year is to get smarted about brewhouse efficiency and all the different math that's involved; for now, my simple way of calculating things (which I've been consistent with) will have to do.

 

[Djanvk]

Great thanks, I'm currently as I type getting ready to sparge so I'll try that method.

What do you mean by the dead space? I'm a Respiratory Therapist and it means area's in a breathing system that can hold CO2. I'm sure that not the same.

 

[Soulive]

The simple way; I change the assumed efficiency on BeerSmith until the calculated OG matches what I achieved (adjusting the volume as well). It's simplified, not perfect, but I'm pretty sure it's an accurate calculation since I have effectively no dead space in the mash tun and very little in the keggle. One of my goals for next year is to get smarted about brewhouse efficiency and all the different math that's involved; for now, my simple way of calculating things (which I've been consistent with) will have to do.

Ha, that's what I do. Good job

 

[BlindLemonLars]

The simple way; I change the assumed efficiency on BeerSmith until the calculated OG matches what I achieved (adjusting the volume as well).

Can't you just enter your measured OG in recipe view, click on the Brewhouse Efficiency button and read the actual efficiency from the details window?

 

[Evan!]

Great thanks, I'm currently as I type getting ready to sparge so I'll try that method.

What do you mean by the dead space? I'm a Respiratory Therapist and it means area's in a breathing system that can hold CO2. I'm sure that not the same.

"Dead space" is, for example, the area below the spigot on your keggle. You need to factor this volume into your calculations because you will typically lose some liquid because it doesn't drain out of the spigot. Mine are typically very low because I don't have a sculpture, and thus just tilt the mash tun at the end.


Oh, and congrats, Bird. Gotta love that BC, baby. Do you use pH stabilizer? I've been getting just around 80% with my factory setting.

Next step for you is to get another kettle and go with a direct-fired stepped mash. Then you'll break 80 routinely. I promise.

 

[Djanvk]

I use a Igloo cooler and do the whole tip method so I'm assuming my is pretty low also.

 

[the_bird]

Oh, and congrats, Bird. Gotta love that BC, baby. Do you use pH stabilizer? I've been getting just around 80% with my factory setting.

Next step for you is to get another kettle and go with a direct-fired stepped mash. Then you'll break 80 routinely. I promise.

Thanks! I started a "yeah, me!" thread yesterday if you're interested. Basically, I took a simple recipe (pretty simple), with a simple process, and made sure that I didn't screw things up like missing the PH buffer. I even checked my mash PH - I *never* do that!

The only thing I'm worried about with the potential move to direct-fired mashing is whether I'll be able to maintain temperatures closely enough... I've always ended up shooting way through temps when I decoct, for example. Maybe I'll try step-mashing on the stove, so I'm working with fewer BTUs. Stove ought to be able to handle getting a mash up to 168° for a mashout, even if it can't boil water!

 

[Evan!]

Thanks! I started a "yeah, me!" thread yesterday if you're interested. Basically, I took a simple recipe (pretty simple), with a simple process, and made sure that I didn't screw things up like missing the PH buffer. I even checked my mash PH - I *never* do that!

The only thing I'm worried about with the potential move to direct-fired mashing is whether I'll be able to maintain temperatures closely enough... I've always ended up shooting way through temps when I decoct, for example. Maybe I'll try step-mashing on the stove, so I'm working with fewer BTUs. Stove ought to be able to handle getting a mash up to 168° for a mashout, even if it can't boil water!

Where's your "yeah, me" thread? I'll check it out.

Hitting your targets is certainly a learning process, and is (obviously) going to be different for everyone depending on their burner and kettle. The one thing you MUST do whenever the burners are on is stir, stir, stir. Constantly. The last thing you want is a pocket of super-heated mash that denatures those enzymes, and once you stir it up, it raises your overall mash temp beyond your target. I wouldn't worry so much as to move to the stove, though. Just go with a low flame, and cut it back (or off) when you're about 5-7 degrees short of your target. Give it a minute to level off and see where you are. You might need another 30-60 seconds of moderate flame if you're still short, but I often find that stopping 5 degrees short and stirring for a minute will leave me just about at my target.

Oh, and one other thing: keep a bowl full of ice cubes nearby. I've overshot my temps more than once, and it's not the end of the world. Just add a few ice cubes, stir, and monitor temps.

My best efficiency comes from: 30 mins @ 133f / 70 mins @ 149-155f / 20 mins (or until starch conversion test is negative) @ 158f / 167f mashout...then a split batch sparge.

Well, actually, my best efficiency came from that crazy long decoction mash, but that's a special case.

Good luck when you do get around to trying it. If you're anything like me, you'll gladly trade in the ease of single-infusion cooler mashing for the unmatched temp control of direct-fired.

 

[Bobby_M]

I sincerely want to figure out why I'm nailing these 90+ efficiencies and so many people have trouble breaking 80%. I swear this isn't a gloat post (this time). Have you happened to check the equilibrium temp after you throw your sparge in and stir? If you're under 160F, there's 5-10% right there. If you sparge in one big batch instead of two smaller ones, there's another 5% there.

 

[the_bird]

I sincerely want to figure out why I'm nailing these 90+ efficiencies and so many people have trouble breaking 80%. I swear this isn't a gloat post (this time). Have you happened to check the equilibrium temp after you throw your sparge in and stir? If you're under 160F, there's 5-10% right there. If you sparge in one big batch instead of two smaller ones, there's another 5% there.

I sparge by adding a volume of water, usually a couple gallons at about 170°, to the mash tun, stir, wait ~5 minutes, and drain. I haven't checked the temp, but I'd wager I'm close to 160°; mash was still at 153°-154°, add in another third in 170° water, that ought to be around 160°. After I drain, I add back in usually about another four gallons of water at 175°-180°, stir, wait, and drain. I've got a spreadsheet that helps me know how much to add before my first and second runnings so the volume I collect from each is about the same.

Doing a recipe with around 13-14lbs of grain, like yesterday, filling my 9 gallon cooler basically to the rim before the sparges results in just about eight gallons collected, pre-boil, which is what I'm shooting for (I usually have a pretty high evaporation rate, arguably too high, but I kept the flame in check yesterday).

Oh, I've also decided that I much prefer the Bayou Classic Patio Cooker over the BC Banjo Cooker; it burns MUCH cleaner, seems to have nearly as much output, and is much easier to control the flame.

 

[The Drizzle]

Have you happened to check the equilibrium temp after you throw your sparge in and stir? If you're under 160F, there's 5-10% right there. If you sparge in one big batch instead of two smaller ones, there's another 5% there.

this is the next step in getting my process down, i always seem to hang around 160. my second of the split batch sparge did get the grain bed to about 165. looks like mid to low 80s in the eff range. I was excited but i had calculated my on what used to be an optimistic 65% so it isn't much of a Kolsch any more. oh well, it'll be beer.

 

[CBBaron]

The simple way; I change the assumed efficiency on BeerSmith until the calculated OG matches what I achieved (adjusting the volume as well). It's simplified, not perfect, but I'm pretty sure it's an accurate calculation since I have effectively no dead space in the mash tun and very little in the keggle. One of my goals for next year is to get smarted about brewhouse efficiency and all the different math that's involved; for now, my simple way of calculating things (which I've been consistent with) will have to do.

Thats my method also. Seems to be a KISS type solution. I don't think dead space has much to do with the calculations though it probably does decrease efficiency.
Craig

 

[Bobby_M]

In case anyone doesn't know, mash/lauter efficiency is calculated based on grain weight, OG, and your preboil collected volume. It factors both sparge technique and lauter tun deadspace into the number. The brewhouse efficiency simply adds trub loss and kettle deadspace to the equation and is therefore figured out using the volume that makes it into the fermenter. If you lose hardly any wort to kettle deadspace, both efficiency numbers will match. When I use all pellet hops in bags, my numbers vary by as little as .5%. If I use a lot of whole leaf, it can be 3%.

 

[the_bird]

If you have a high evaporation rate, or do an extended boil... two examples, assuming the same grain bill.

1. Collect nine gallons, boil down to six gallons (3 gallons evaporated), 1.060 OG

2. Collect eight gallons, boil down to six gallons (2 gallons evaporated), the same 1.060 OG.

The second one is clearly going to have the higher mash/lauter efficiency, since my preboil gravity must have been higher to end up with the same concentration of sugars in the same volume of wort.

Will my brewhouse efficiency also be higher with the second example? Or will it be the same for both examples (only considering the grain bill, final gravity, and final volume)? Does it completely ignore how much more I had to evaporate to get there for #1?

 

[Bobby_M]

If you have a high evaporation rate, or do an extended boil... two examples, assuming the same grain bill.

1. Collect nine gallons, boil down to six gallons (3 gallons evaporated), 1.060 OG

2. Collect eight gallons, boil down to six gallons (2 gallons evaporated), the same 1.060 OG.

The second one is clearly going to have the higher mash/lauter efficiency, since my preboil gravity must have been higher to end up with the same concentration of sugars in the same volume of wort.

Will my brewhouse efficiency also be higher with the second example? Or will it be the same for both examples (only considering the grain bill, final gravity, and final volume)? Does it completely ignore how much more I had to evaporate to get there for #1?

Nope. If the grain bill, gravity, and final volume are identical, so are the brewhouse efficiency numbers. It doesn't take into account how much you collected and subsequently boiled down because boiloff doesn't take any sugar away. That's why I typically mention my preboil volume and boil duration when quoting brewhouse numbers. Why? Because you can get pretty close to 100% brewhouse if you sparge all the way down to 1.010 runnings with a HUGE preboil volume as long as you don't mind boiling for 160 minutes. So...when I talk about maximizing efficiency, it's in the scope of a reasonable 60-70 minute boil.

Just to make the numbers easy, let's do an example of 1 pound of 2-row.

2 row has a max extract potential of 1.037 or 37 GU in 1 gallon. So, if you mash and sparge to a total of 1 gallon preboil and measure an OG of 1.037, you've hit 100% extract efficiency. If you then boil that down to .75 gallons and leave absolutely no wort behind in the kettle, you hit 100% brewhouse also.

 

[Dude]

For those of you that are straying all over the board on efficiency, who/what crushes your grain? I am trying to figure out why you'd be so all over the place.

Mine is 86% almost every single time. Occasionally I get into the lower 80s but rarely. It is always withing a percentage point, but I have had the same system and my grain mill gap set for quite a while now.

You need to find a way to always have the same crush--I think that is highly important if you are hell bent on consistency from batch to batch.

 

[njnear76]

I agree with Bobby_M, you are probably getting better efficency than you think. He taught a group of us all grain this past weekend and his technique and logic seemed pretty good.

1. Lauter for an hour
2. Drain completely
3. Sparge (wait 5 minutes for the bed to settle)
4. Drain completely
5. Sparge (wait 5 minutes for the bed to settle)
6. Drain completely

Bobby measured the first drain OG and the last drain OG while estimating the second drain OG as being between the first and third OG. Bobby also measured the amount of water collected for each draining.

It makes sense that your first drainings will have an higher OG than the recipe while your last drainings will have a OG lower than the recipe. If you only measure your last drainings that would account for the low efficency.

 

[the_bird]

It makes sense that your first drainings will have an higher OG than the recipe while your last drainings will have a OG lower than the recipe. If you only measure your last drainings that would account for the low efficency.

I don't think anybody's doing that (measuring their last runnings to calc efficiency). I am going to start tracking mash/lauter effeciency. I do get a good boil-off using the burners I have, so I'm curious whether I still have issues with my mash/lauter efficiency that aren't showing up in my brewhouse efficiency.

Maybe Santa Claus should bring me a refractometer AND a PH meter!

 

[Soulive]

Nice new avatar Jay. Tom's my favorite

 

[njnear76]

I don't think anybody's doing that (measuring their last runnings to calc efficiency). I am going to start tracking mash/lauter effeciency.

Heh. You never know. Everybody's technique is a little bit different. Also I can completely see myself doing that on my first AG if I didn't know any better.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so I'll explain it direct from the horses mouth eh? Though some would say I'm closer to the horse's ass. Anyway, I only measure the gravity at the tail end of the 3rd runnings/second batch sparge to give me a quick indication of how much residual sugars I missed. Ideally, you'd like to see it between 1.010-1.020 to know you got most of it. It's not a true indicator of efficiency, but I use it as a general check before I go dumping the grains out.

The only way to really know what your extract efficiency was is to measure your total runnings in the kettle, mix it up well, pull a sample and test preboil OG. Now that I have a sight glass on my BK, that's an easy task (at least the volume measurement part). Lately I've been lazy and simply calculate brewhouse efficiency (volume in the fermenter, OG, and starting grain weight) because you'll always want to know your OG for attenuation/abv calculations later.

 

[njnear76]

Ok, so I'll explain it direct from the horses mouth eh? Though some would say I'm closer to the horse's ass. Anyway, I only measure the gravity at the tail end of the 3rd runnings/second batch sparge to give me a quick indication of how much residual sugars I missed. Ideally, you'd like to see it between 1.010-1.020 to know you got most of it. It's not a true indicator of efficiency, but I use it as a general check before I go dumping the grains out.

The only way to really know what your extract efficiency was is to measure your total runnings in the kettle, mix it up well, pull a sample and test preboil OG. Now that I have a sight glass on my BK, that's an easy task (at least the volume measurement part). Lately I've been lazy and simply calculate brewhouse efficiency (volume in the fermenter, OG, and starting grain weight) because you'll always want to know your OG for attenuation/abv calculations later.

My bad. :cross: I should probably read a little more Palmer so I don't sound so uneducated on the subject. Heh.

 

[Bobby_M]

No way man, I'd never expect the all grain thing (and all the associated nuances) to ever stick from observing one session. Personally, I think you'll absorb what Palmer writes about a lot easier now that you've seen it done (or do it yourself).

 

[njnear76]

No way man, I'd never expect the all grain thing (and all the associated nuances) to ever stick from observing one session. Personally, I think you'll absorb what Palmer writes about a lot easier now that you've seen it done (or do it yourself).

Yeah. It will be interesting. I plan on an efficency of 65% for my first attempt at AG. Hopefully it will be a little bit better. Reading stories about < 65 gets me worried.