WLP066 London Fog

[bellebouche]

I think this observation is worth sharing.

Two samples of the same starter wort used to step up the WLP066 London Fog strain from the same fermentation.

On the left, I used about 12ml harvested fermenter leftovers after the prior NEIPA beer had been cold-crashed.

On the right, the bottle dregs from one of the beers produced by that same fermentation.

Key difference being... a lot more hop matter in the fermenter sample. No other significant variables... same wort, time, temp, agitation, volumes, similar seeding, age, sample rate etc.

My initial guess is the flocculation mechanism is delayed/inhibited by the presence of the hop compounds introduced during active fermentation? Lends credence to the London Fog tag and what people are seeing in NEIPA style recipes. If anyone has more insight/experience I'm keen to find out more.

I've used the (leftmost!) starter that I grew in a small volume of a low density pale ale today. I won't put any hops in during active fermentation and intend to crash and rack into a keg before dry hopping. (I'm stepping up for a bigger NEIPA style beer with this small test volume)

 

[peanasky]

Just wanted to report in: I've been fermenting mine at the cold end of things, 63F per the outside of the carboy. It's been going for 8 days now and still chugging along. Anyone experience a long ferment like this? I'm thinking I probably should ramp it up a bit.

Quick follow up: After this post, I moved the beer to ~70F ambient. Kegged the beer today, 14 days after brew-day. OG: 1.056, FG: 1.012, 5.77% ABV, and 78.5% apparent attenuation. Nice bright fruity beer. Heavy hops with Citra, Mosaic, and Centennial.

 

[kingmatt]

Just an update that the beer I brewed with this yeast took 3rd out of 41 entries in the 'Specialty IPA' category at the 'War of the Worts' competition last night. I'd say it's a winner as far as NEIPA yeasts go

 

[jdauria]

Oh yeah, kingmatt's post reminded me...so my NEIPA using London Fog took 1st in NEIPA's and 2nd in Best of Show at the Hudson Valley Homebrew Comp in NY last month. Scored a 42!

 

[SanPancho]

how about some details on the yeast performance? flavor/aroma notes? (if you can separate them out from the hops) attenuation? temps?

 

[jdauria]

how about some details on the yeast performance? flavor/aroma notes? (if you can separate them out from the hops) attenuation? temps?

For me, attenuation was 73.4% and fermented at 68. Made a starter, so had active fermentation within 6 hours of pitching and it took only 4 days to go from OG of 1.063 down to final gravity of 1.016. With Galaxy, Ella and Idaho 7 hops in whirlpool and dry hopped picking out yeast flavors/aromas was not possible.

 

[PissyFingers]

For me, attenuation was 73.4% and fermented at 68. Made a starter, so had active fermentation within 6 hours of pitching and it took only 4 days to go from OG of 1.063 down to final gravity of 1.016. With Galaxy, Ella and Idaho 7 hops in whirlpool and dry hopped picking out yeast flavors/aromas was not possible.

HI, what was your mash temp with this yeast?

Cheers,

Harley.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

Has anyone fermented this in the low 60s?

 

[kingmatt]

Has anyone fermented this in the low 60s?

Last time I pitched in the low 60s and let it free rise to the mid 60s and was happy with the results.

I brewed another NEIPA Sunday and am going to ramp it up to the low to mid 70s to see what kind of esters it puts out.

I'll report back with how it turns out.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

ended up fermenting this mostly in low 60s for 4 days then warmed it up to 65-70 for 3 then kegged. Came out good, I think next time ill shoot for 65-70 see if I can pull some more juicy flavors out.

 

[bellebouche]

I've used this yeast a handful of times this spring and I'm coming back to share a little info to support the hypothesis about the behaviour in the presence of high quantities of hops.

A couple of pictures that should echo my initial finding when I tried to propagate the yeast.

First sample. A Cask ale, 4.3%, Maris Otter... no dry hopping.

This is from a freshly tapped cask that hadn't settled well... but it did eventually fall bright (it was isinglass fined)

Second sample. A Cloudwater style DDH pale, 6-row winter pale malt (Amistar) & Munich. Lots of whirpool hops (Columbus, Dana, Comet) , 3g/l Simcoe on day 2 and 5g/l Vic secret on day 6.

I've found the yeast moderately attenuating in some early experiments so in the DDH beer I added a little Dextrose to help dry the finished article out a little.

 

[TurnipGreen]

I used 066 in a wheatwine over the holidays. I’m finally getting ready to dry hopping and packaging next week. I’m glad to read it’ll take the dry hop well.

The sample were really good. I liked the mouthfeel and the british-type esters. That mouthfeel might be too from the heavy wheat in the recipe. I really like some of the British yeasts in American styles. (Not all, but this and 006 are on my list) I mashed a little higher, 155, ‘cause last time I did this recipe it was a bit thin and dry.

This was my first time using London fog. I’ll report back when it’s all done in about a month or so.

 

[cooper]

Just picked up some of this today. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out!

 

[cooper]

I finally got around to brewing with this yeast 2 weeks ago. Started the fermentation at 65 and steadily increased the temp to 74. Dried out the beer to 1.006. No off favors, of course the High Krausen dry hop may have something to do with that. Can't wait to keg this and see how it mellows out!

My NEIPA did exactly the same thing. Mashed at 156F for 60 mins. Mash pH was 5.15 which is a little lower than I wanted. Mixture of Pilsner/Golden Promise with some malted wheat and flaked adjuncts. Fermentation started around 63F and let it rise after a week up to 68F and the FG came in a 1.008. Taste is great but I’m doing some added keg conditioning before I give it an evaluation.

 

[thehaze]

A question to bellebouche: May I ask, where did you buy those 2 glasses? I too live in Europe and I am interested in a simple ( not too much writing ) Teku style glass.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Interesting seeing WLP066 showing up in commercial brews - Cloudwater have tried it in a Citra Chinook version of their DIPA and a 5.5% Centennial Mosaic pale out at the moment.

 

[thehaze]

WLP066 id being used by a brewery from Romania ( I live there ) for their IPAs and it works well. Definitely " softer " than a much cleaner strain.

 

[Trippa]

So I recently brewed a NEIPA utilising WLP-066 London fog ... Its currently on tap in my kegerator. Utilised Nelson Sauvin, Citra, Mosaic and Azacca as my hops ... 400g total in a 21litre brew. OG was 1.061-1.062 and FG of 1.007-1.008 so around 88% attenuation ... 18C ferment raising to 22C by day 4-5 ... Tastes a little dryer then expected but freaking delicious all the same. Would utilise this yeast again in a heartbeat

 

[matzou]

Sorry for the revival but since I received a dead packet of 1318 I was looking for a replacement as all around english style yeast/juicy neipa.
Does anyone have more data on the difference between the two or the wlp066 is just slighty drier ?

@bellebouche
I thought this was more or less common evidence that the yeast ability to floculate was hindered by hop compound, early dry hop charge looking for briotransformation led to haze

The beer on the avatar is done with s04 which has a great floculation, but by adding 8gr/L @ day +1 for the first hop charge, I had a haze that never cleared.
If you want more scientific answer, I think you could check scottjanish blog or there might be some papers on the subject looking in google.
p.s: Jolis verres, festival du poitou c'est a Poitiers ?

 

[TurnipGreen]

I used 066 in a wheatwine over the holidays. I’m finally getting ready to dry hopping and packaging next week. I’m glad to read it’ll take the dry hop well.

The sample were really good. I liked the mouthfeel and the british-type esters. That mouthfeel might be too from the heavy wheat in the recipe. I really like some of the British yeasts in American styles. (Not all, but this and 006 are on my list) I mashed a little higher, 155, ‘cause last time I did this recipe it was a bit thin and dry.

This was my first time using London fog. I’ll report back when it’s all done in about a month or so.

Turned out gross. I’m not a 100% that it was entirely the yeast or the slightly higher mash temperature, but if you’ve ever tasted a wheat bear with that wheaty-silky mouthed feel. I don’t like that mouthfeel or the flavor of the wheat when you get that. I won’t be using this yeast with anything even stored near wheat.

 

[cpham574]

For me, attenuation was 73.4% and fermented at 68. Made a starter, so had active fermentation within 6 hours of pitching and it took only 4 days to go from OG of 1.063 down to final gravity of 1.016. With Galaxy, Ella and Idaho 7 hops in whirlpool and dry hopped picking out yeast flavors/aromas was not possible.

What temp did you mash at? It seems like you’re getting lower attenuation than what other people are reporting. I would like to give this yeast a shot but I don’t want to dry out my ipas

 

[jdauria]

What temp did you mash at? It seems like you’re getting lower attenuation than what other people are reporting. I would like to give this yeast a shot but I don’t want to dry out my ipas

I mashed at 153F. Wanted to finish a little high to keep some residual sweetness in the beer. My recipe in BeerSmith had estimated 1.022 FG, but actual was 1.016, down from OG of 1.063.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I got mine from the HB store a couple of weeks ago. It had just expired so I got it for FREE. Haven't used it yet though.

 

[Chris-Naz]

I used this yeast once and it’s very 1318-like in its performance in my hands and is less focculent/more hazy. Stuff stayed in suspension from start to finish for a 5 gallon keg. Hop character and aroma were just a touch lower IMHO than when I brewed the same beer w/ 1318 but this was not a Brülosophy exbeeriment and don’t have data to back up my claim... definitely worth playing with for you NEIPA fanatics

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Mike Tonsmeire compares the same(ish) beer made with "London Fog", used by Black Flag Brewing as their house blend for hoppy stuff, and RVA Manchester (pushed as a 1318 equivalent) here. He claims they both come from Boddington's (of Manchester, 200 miles from London), but describes the London Fog as being a touch less estery which allows the hops to come forward a little more, particularly the Nelson, and is a bit less hazy.

 

[cpham574]

Here's a pic of my NEIPA and it was my first time using London Fog. I've only used Burlington, 1318, and london fog so far. This is by far my favorite! OG was 1.072 and FG was 1.015...so about 78% attenuation with a mash temp of 156*. It attenuated more than I wanted, so now I'm wondering if the grain bed temp in my Grainfather is actually lower than what the readout says or if this range is about normal for this strain. It seems like I've been getting higher attenuation than what White Labs list on their website.

 

[ihavenonickname]

Sloooowww to finish for me too

1.056, healthy active starter pitched at 66, big blow off for 4 days. Then slowed way down. I’ve been slowly ramping temp up now to 72 on day 12 and it’s STILL slowly bubbling away. Waiting to dry hop, pretty annoying I’m fixing g to finish this one off.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I see people mentioning crazy attenuation earlier in this thread, so at least I'm not the only one. I had read elsewhere this stuff didn't attenuate that great but I must've gotten a pissed off batch of this stuff. First batch attenuated 87% for me. I harvested 3 mason jars from that one. First batch of gen2 was 83%, more reasonable. The one I just pulled a gravity sample on tonight read 1.006, 91% attenuation! This is supposed to be a hazy IPA so not exactly what I was going for but should be interesting. The 87% that finished at 1.009 didn't taste dry.

 

[couchsending]

For those that are experiencing over attenuation with this strain..

Are you whirlpooling hops at low temps?

Are you adding sizable quantities of hops during fermentation?

Are you getting any phenolic off flavors?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I top off a little at the end of my boils to get to my target volume and it drops the temp to around 185-190 and that's what I've been whirlpooling at. No hops added during fermentation. No off flavors in either of my 066 super attenuators.

 

[Chris-Naz]

For those that are experiencing over attenuation with this strain..

Are you whirlpooling hops at low temps?

Are you adding sizable quantities of hops during fermentation?

Are you getting any phenolic off flavors?

Hi @couchsending,
I’ve been spending more time with this strain as I like the attenuation it brings. To your Qs in order for my recent batches: ~170 F whirlpool, 8-12oz via 2 additions - usually 6oz on day 4 and the balance on day 6, phenolic off flavors - maybe. I wasn’t a huge fan of my last batch (Golden Promise/white wheat 90/10%, with citra, mosaic, strata) but haven’t sat down to figure out why other than the hop flavor is coming across as overripe peaches/pineapple. I’ll have a ponder and report back.

As a side note, I’m starting to think it’s possible to over dry hop with this strain an issue I haven’t noticed with Wyeast 1318 - thoughts?

 

[Chris-Naz]

Are you getting any phenolic off flavors?

@couchsending, re phenolics w/wlp66: I can definitely pick up some off-flavor in my recent batch (previous post). I was originally thinking that it was due to too high a dry hop charge and that it was vegetal character. Upon further tasting/reflection the beer is tart and a touch medicinal but definitely lacks the other classic phenol descriptors such as clove/spicy/Smokey/bandaid. So, my hypothesis is that for me on this particular batch: I’m not facing a yeast issue but rather the yeast has exposed a potential brewing process issue.

Self-diagnosing my process would suggest that I may have to double check my chloroamine levels in my water supply - could lead to cl-aromatics via conversion of phenols from the heavy dry hopping. I’ve definitely had this issue in the past when my ipas don’t pop as I expect them to. I’ll likely swap my carbon block filter and pretreat my water with some metabisulfite as I don’t have a reserve osmosis system.

I’ll brew another NEIPA with this strain in a couple of weeks and report back in a month or so and let this group know if the problem persists.
Hope this helps.

 

[ErikC]

I´m a bit concerned with my first brew with this yeast.
Currently on day 12 of fermentation and my SG is 1.024. OG was 1.061.
Used two yeast vials. I have a fridge with a temp controller where the fermenter is standing on a heat pad.
Started at 18C for 6 days, and have since slowly increased the temperature to 22C.
The krausen hasn´t dropped and when sampling the beer (spigot on bucket fermenter) the taste is very yeasty.
SG two days prior was 1.026, so it isn´t dropping as fast as i would hope with increasing temperature.

Any suggestions on corrections, or is it just a waiting game? Was hoping for a FG around 1.015 but that doesn´t seem likely
at this point. When I read the previous posts, it seems like everyone else has had great attenuation in a shorter timespan than mine.

 

[madscientist451]

Perhaps making a starter would have improved things? So you're doing a pressure fermentation? What is the pressure set at? Any chance the pressure is higher than you think it is?

 

[ErikC]

Perhaps making a starter would have improved things? So you're doing a pressure fermentation? What is the pressure set at? Any chance the pressure is higher than you think it is?

Yeah, I know that I underpitched, but not by a mile. Was hoping to get away with that.
Maybe the viability was worse than I thought.
No this is not a pressure fermentation. Might have used a term that implied it was, sorry (Spundit valve was incorrect, meant spigot)

 

[Gido]

Any weird phenols? White Labs and crazy attenuation makes me worry a little these days.

I know this is an old post, but it came up right away when i did a search for "WLP066 phenols". So, yes, I got weird phenols that i didn't expect. Here's the grain bill:
---------------------------------------------------
2 Row Pale Malt 10.0 lb 8.0 oz 1.8L
Munich 8.0 oz 6L
Crystal 20L 12.0 oz 20L
Crystal 75L 4.0 oz 75L
Dextrin 4.0 oz 5.5L
---------------------------------------------------
OG = 1.056

I bought a new fridge controller and installed it the night before the brew... bad idea. It took a bit to figure out how it worked. I wanted esters so i set the controller to 72F. But the threshold to turn the fridge on was 3F, so the damn thing got up to 75F. I imagine the average temp (actual temp of my beer) was more like 73F or 74F--still high. I didn't get it under control until most of the fermentation was complete.

Now i have phenols. Like potent phenols. At first i thought i accidentally pitched a Belgian yeast. The phonols are mostly spicy, somewhat clove like in aroma, but more towards the bandaid or styrene in flavor (just slightly) with an undertone of spicy and cloves. So it could be an infection.

One more note. This is the second or third running of this yeast. I made a 1.7L yeast starter and pitched the whole thing just after the peak of fermentation on the starter. I did not have any of these phenols in the first two uses, but those were NEIPAs, this was a darker pale ale.

Just hoping this helps someone in the futuer... I'd run this yeast at lower temps!

Edit: I kept reading through this thread and found some folks concerned with late hop/dry hop additions regarding formation of phenols. I also saw a good post on a concern about chlorine perhaps reacting to create phenols. My total hops were:
0.35 oz Magnum at 60
0.25 oz Willamette at 10
0.25 oz Fuggles at 10
0.25 oz Northern Brewer at 10
0.25 oz Willamette at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
0.25 oz Fuggles at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
0.25 oz Northern Brewer at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
0.5 oz Amarillo at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
No dry hops.

Also, i do not use chlorine for sanitization, i use Star San.

 

[Trippa]

I know this is an old post, but it came up right away when i did a search for "WLP066 phenols". So, yes, I got weird phenols that i didn't expect. Here's the grain bill:
---------------------------------------------------
2 Row Pale Malt 10.0 lb 8.0 oz 1.8L
Munich 8.0 oz 6L
Crystal 20L 12.0 oz 20L
Crystal 75L 4.0 oz 75L
Dextrin 4.0 oz 5.5L
---------------------------------------------------
OG = 1.056

I bought a new fridge controller and installed it the night before the brew... bad idea. It took a bit to figure out how it worked. I wanted esters so i set the controller to 72F. But the threshold to turn the fridge on was 3F, so the damn thing got up to 75F. I imagine the average temp (actual temp of my beer) was more like 73F or 74F--still high. I didn't get it under control until most of the fermentation was complete.

Now i have phenols. Like potent phenols. At first i thought i accidentally pitched a Belgian yeast. The phonols are mostly spicy, somewhat clove like in aroma, but more towards the bandaid or styrene in flavor (just slightly) with an undertone of spicy and cloves. So it could be an infection.

One more note. This is the second or third running of this yeast. I made a 1.7L yeast starter and pitched the whole thing just after the peak of fermentation on the starter. I did not have any of these phenols in the first two uses, but those were NEIPAs, this was a darker pale ale.

Just hoping this helps someone in the futuer... I'd run this yeast at lower temps!

Edit: I kept reading through this thread and found some folks concerned with late hop/dry hop additions regarding formation of phenols. I also saw a good post on a concern about chlorine perhaps reacting to create phenols. My total hops were:
0.35 oz Magnum at 60
0.25 oz Willamette at 10
0.25 oz Fuggles at 10
0.25 oz Northern Brewer at 10
0.25 oz Willamette at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
0.25 oz Fuggles at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
0.25 oz Northern Brewer at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
0.5 oz Amarillo at 0 (literally flame out... whirlpool for 15 minutes before cooling)
No dry hops.

Also, i do not use chlorine for sanitization, i use Star San.

To me, with a little bit of experience with this yeast and many others I have never experienced Bandaid phenols from any of them.
Much more likely you are looking at some sort of infection or chlorine in the water somewhere in the mix??

 

[Gido]

To me, with a little bit of experience with this yeast and many others I have never experienced Bandaid phenols from any of them.
Much more likely you are looking at some sort of infection or chlorine in the water somewhere in the mix??

Sorry for the long period of delinquency. Yes, indeed, it was an infection. I found a piece of hops in my pump the next time i brewed. It was nice and white and fuzzy!

I returned to this thread because it happened again, with the same yeast and same basic recipe. White Labs confirmed that WLP066 is POF- (Phenol Off Flavor Negative), meaning it can't produce phenols. But... the phenols are back. I double checked the pump, no white fuzzy stuff. HOWEVER, I've always worried about my valves since they trap a small amount of fluid when you turn them off (they aren't the type that can be disassembled). I wash the heck out of the kettle and pump after I brew. I run soapy (oxy clean) water through the pump and kettle, just like the flow on a whirlpool. I open and close the valves while I do this. Being ever so curious to find the culprit, I just double checked my pump valve... yeup, when I closed it, a small amount of wort came out! I'm betting when I'm running the pump during cleaning, this pressurizes the system enough to not allow the stuff trapped in the valve when in the "open" position to purge out, even if i repeatedly open an close the valve. The valves on the kettle probably get hot enough during the boil to kill anything trapped in them. I reality, I don't use my valve on my pump that often so I think I'm just going to remove it.

Anyhow, just want to make sure I share as much as I can so we can all learn without making the same mistakes.