WLP028 Edinburgh Under Attenuation consitently

[USMChueston0311]

Having attenuation issues.

3 20 gallon EHERMS
Spike cf15 w glycol chiller and heat wrap.

Oxygenated for a minute-minute and a half with oxygen bottle and carb stone

4.5 L WLP028 yeast starter, used sterilized pre canned wort, kept around 68-70 degrees stirred for 24 then crashed for 24 brought out to slowly warm to pitch temp in brew day.

12.5 2 row
12.5 maris otter
4 # crisp choc malt
2.5 flaked barley
2.5 flaked oats
1.5 honey malt

EKG and Northern Brewer hops

Pitched at 66.

Held at 66 for two days then bumped to 67.

OG was 1.068 it’s stopped at 1.026.

60% attenuation. Had the same issue last brew. PH of mash was 5.2 mash temp was 155-156 for 60, then a mashout at 168. Sparge PH 5.6 and started at 168 and turned off power to element.

I don’t understand what is causing this under attenuation. I’m at day 3.5-4.

I had 66% efficiency as well but I believe my mill gap was too tight for EHERMS, I’ve recently tightened it and started fooling with grain conditioning, no name mill. Just ordered a MM3, so hopefully that will he’ll address the efficiency issues.

Any thoughts?

 

[SanPancho]

Could your temps be a bit off? A high mash and a low attenuator (esp. UK types) could easily end up down at 60%. 155-6 isnt that high, but if you were actually at 158-9 then thats different.

 

[USMChueston0311]

I have a thermapen mk4 which is fairly new so I do not think it’s mosreading. As well as all my PIDs

 

[papz]

155-6 isnt that high.

Yeah it is (imho)
Try making the same brew but mash at 150-f for 90 and see how different it turns out.
-Cheers

 

[Jocky]

I too find this yeast a lower attenuator, although I use it quite a lot as I do like what it does. I have a stout on at the moment that started at 1.071 and I think has stopped at 1.023. I did a 80min mash at 67C/153F.

I have had beers finish lower with the same yeast when making pale ales - I'll have to check my old brew log to see what temperature I mashed at for that - I'll let you know.

 

[couchsending]

It’s your mash temp.. similar to 002 it needs low mash temps to hit moderate attenuation numbers.

 

[Jocky]

It’s your mash temp.. similar to 002 it needs low mash temps to hit moderate attenuation numbers.

Looking at my notes I concur.

When I've managed to drive the gravity down it's been by starting with a rest at 63c/145f and then raising it to 69c/156f after half an hour. That should achieve ~75% apparent attenuation.

A straight rest at 67C/153F only achieves 65% apparent attenuation (and that's pretty consistent too).

 

[SanPancho]

Yeah it is (imho)
Try making the same brew but mash at 150-f for 90 and see how different it turns out.
-Cheers

Yeah, fair enough. I was assuming a typical 152-3 ale mash profile for general use. But with the uk yeasts even thats still a bit on high side.

 

[USMChueston0311]

That makes sense. How much would the 145 at 30-45 change the sweetness and mouthfeel rather than a straight 155 60 min mash?

 

[jekeane]

Efficiency: For eherms you want your mill set to .045 - .050 I find that a stir with about 20 minutes left and then resetting your mash be will also bump numbers a bit if that is what you are looking for.

Sounds like you are new to this HERMS system. What are you setting your HLT to? Are you setting it to your desired mash temp and leaving it there or are you trying to ramp up to your mash temp by setting your HLT higher. If you recirculate your mash through higher then desired mash temps that is what you are effectively mashing at. So if your strike is 165 and you recirculate through 165 ° water rather than lowering the HLT dow to 155 then you are actually mashing at 165°

 

[couchsending]

That makes sense. How much would the 145 at 30-45 change the sweetness and mouthfeel rather than a straight 155 60 min mash?

?? It will attenuate more so it won’t be as sweet or thick..

 

[USMChueston0311]

Efficiency: For eherms you want your mill set to .045 - .050 I find that a stir with about 20 minutes left and then resetting your mash be will also bump numbers a bit if that is what you are looking for.

Sounds like you are new to this HERMS system. What are you setting your HLT to? Are you setting it to your desired mash temp and leaving it there or are you trying to ramp up to your mash temp by setting your HLT higher. If you recirculate your mash through higher then desired mash temps that is what you are effectively mashing at. So if your strike is 165 and you recirculate through 165 ° water rather than lowering the HLT dow to 155 then you are actually mashing at 165°

Ive brewed 8 batches on the EHERMS system. Ive done it both ways, where I set HLT to strike temp, and add grains and then wait 15 mins or so to bring up to strike temp, and Ive set the HLT 12-15 degrees higher, and then add room temp water to HLT and turn heat off until it drops back down to Mash temp. Then I wait until my 60 minute mash is over and ramp up to 168 for mashout for 10-15 minutes and then switch off and start sparging letting it cool during the sparge.

I have a blichmann 20 gallon setup, with a spike CF15 and glycol chiller (homemade) and use a High Gravity EBC-330 controller with PID in the temp probe location on HLT, and in a tee on the MLT output valve.

My mash temp in MLT never goes a degree or two above the desired mash temp. The times Ive set HLT higher to beersmiths parameters for grain temp loss, I use the left over 2-3 gallons of RO water at room temp to cool it back down to strike temp with heat turned off to the HLT.

How do you do it?

Ive also been using a crappy 2 roller Milar Mill, and the first brew or two used the 1.045 gap setting but recently tightened it and started grain conditioning, and my eff bombed. So I finally bit the bullet and ordered a 3 roller Monster Mill, so hopefully that set at the 1.045-50 gap setting and three rollers will help with eff.

Also, my mash eff has been lacking also because i was struggling with too low of a PH around 5.1-5.2 instead of the 5.4-5.5 that I wanted (Because i was concered with having too high bicarbonate levels from adding baking soda or slaked lime). But im not going to worry about those 200-250 bicarbonate bru'n water levels, and add more slaked lime and a bit of baking soda to increase my PH to what I actually want.

 

[USMChueston0311]

?? It will attenuate more so it won’t be as sweet or thick..

That's what I figured as higher means more unfermentables and sweeter finish, but i was curious as to how it would affect the recipe and what Im trying to create.

??

 

[couchsending]

What FG are you shooting for? 45 @ 145 + 15 @ 154 might get you close to 1.014ish with that grain bill

 

[USMChueston0311]

The recipe calls for 1.021, im not far off from it. I was just puzzled as why WLP lists that yeast at 70-75% and im consistently getting 60-65. But mash temp is definitely playing a roll for sure.

 

[Jocky]

The recipe calls for 1.021, im not far off from it. I was just puzzled as why WLP lists that yeast at 70-75% and im consistently getting 60-65. But mash temp is definitely playing a roll for sure.

It can get to 75%, you just need a lower rest temperature in there to help push the sugar balance in the wort towards the shortest chain sugars.

I can only guess that this yeast is not very good at fermenting maltotriose - the longest chained fermentable sugar, so you need to maximise your use of beta-amylase to produce more of the glucose/maltose that it can ferment easily.

Beer wise it should mean that you end up with a lower FG, a bit more alcohol and a slightly drier beer. I don't think it's going to make a 1.068 OG beer taste thin - I'd still expect the FG to be 1.018-1.020.