WLP007 Slow Fermentation

[Arkhomer]

Hello folks,

I brewed an amber ale 12 days ago (1.048 OG). Pitched WLP007. Just checked the SG and got a reading of 1.018. Yeast pitched at ~68° and beer has been fermenting in temp controlled chamber at 68°. Still minimal activity in the airlock. Everything I have read that strain eats up sugars and finished out pretty quick. Not here.

Do you think I should wait it out a while or go ahead and add some type of yeast nutrient?

I have brewed with WLP001 and WLP004 10 days ago and 5 days ago respectively and those are both already down to 1.011. Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you measuring this now with a hydrometer or refractometer?

Did you let the yeast come to room temps before pitching?

Maybe the yeast pack was old, or mishandled (frozen, overheated) before you got it.
For that reason it's always advisable to make a yeast starter from liquid yeasts to verify a) its viability and b) ramp up cell count.

Did you aerate or oxygenate the wort when you pitched?

I'd let it go another week, let it be.
There should be no need for extra nutrients right now, the beer has pretty much all she needs.

 

[tgolanos]

007 can be a picky yeast from my experience. Even the slightest drop of temp can lead to it floccing out too soon.

Rouse up the cake if you're really concerned and give it another week. 007's a great yeast once you get used to it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Grain bill and mash schedule?

That yeast rarely takes more than 6-8 days, even with big grain bills. In smaller ones usually more like 4-5 days.

If it's stable there (which I bet it is) I'm guessing it's just done.

 

[Arkhomer]

Are you measuring this now with a hydrometer or refractometer?

Did you let the yeast come to room temps before pitching?

Maybe the yeast pack was old, or mishandled (frozen, overheated) before you got it.
For that reason it's always advisable to make a yeast starter from liquid yeasts to verify a) its viability and b) ramp up cell count.

Did you aerate or oxygenate the wort when you pitched?

I'd let it go another week, let it be.
There should be no need for extra nutrients right now, the beer has pretty much all she needs.

Hydrometer.

Yes let the yeast get to 70 over few hours.

Yeast born on date was Dec of 18. Possibly mishandled but got from LHBS. Never had an issue before with liquid yeast from there.

I aerated the wort very well.

Some of the yeast has clumped up on the top of the wort (small clumps).

Thanks for the response!

 

[IslandLizard]

Looks like you did everything fine. Does seeing the small floating clumps indicate the kraused has fallen already?

Still minimal activity in the airlock.

That means it's either outgassing due to pressure or temp differences or it's still fermenting.
I would raise it to 70F and keep it there for a few days then to 72F until she's totally done, a week from now.

 

[Arkhomer]

Grain bill and mash schedule?

That yeast rarely takes more than 6-8 days, even with big grain bills. In smaller ones usually more like 4-5 days.

If it's stable there (which I bet it is) I'm guessing it's just done.

10.5 lbs. 60 minutes @155. Nothing fancy. I sure hope it's not done at 3.9% abv.

 

[Qhrumphf]

10.5 lbs. 60 minutes @155. Nothing fancy. I sure hope it's not done at 3.9% abv.

What was the actual grain bill....

 

[Arkhomer]

What was the actual grain bill....

8 lbs 2 row
1 lb C60
1 lb C90
.5 lb flaked wheat

 

[Qhrumphf]

8 lbs 2 row
1 lb C60
1 lb C90
.5 lb flaked wheat

So, that's quite a bit of crystal malt and quite a high mash temp. Especially if your thermometer isn't 100% (many are not, especially cheap ones). Means a likely low fermentability of wort.

Youre at ~63% apparent attenuation. Those factors in mind, it's very possible that's just where it's gonna finish.

 

[Arkhomer]

So, that's quite a bit of crystal malt and quite a high mash temp. Especially if your thermometer isn't 100% (many are not, especially cheap ones). Means a likely low fermentability of wort.

Youre at ~63% apparent attenuation. Those factors in mind, it's very possible that's just where it's gonna finish.

Well I won't claim to know how to calculate attenuation rates. I ripped this recipe off AHA and it showed an expected FG closer to 1.010. I'm confident in my thermometer. It's not a cheapie and I've tested it against a bench meter at my lab at work.

Of the 20 or so all grain batches I've done they have all finished significantly lower than this. I think I'll give it some time and see what happens. Thanks for the info!

 

[lowtones84]

So, that's quite a bit of crystal malt and quite a high mash temp. Especially if your thermometer isn't 100% (many are not, especially cheap ones). Means a likely low fermentability of wort.

Youre at ~63% apparent attenuation. Those factors in mind, it's very possible that's just where it's gonna finish.

Going to agree here. I would still expect it to finish a little lower myself, but that might be it. Around 20% crystal in the grain bill and a high mash temp will do it. Since you're at or close to FG, bumping temp to 70F (as IslandLizard mentioned) if you can and rousing the yeast shouldn't hurt anything. Did you make a starter? Didn't see one mentioned.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I used to brew a Blonde Ale that was about 8% crystal (you're at 19%), the rest base malt, mashed at 152, using that yeast, fermented at 68. It would go from 1.048 to 1.012 every time.

155 is getting into the "beta denatures rapidly" range, plus a high percentage of crystal, which without some serious mash action will retain lots of unfermentables.

1.018 is still on the higher side, but I don't see it as unreasonable.

By all means wait it out, rouse it if you can do so without oxidizing it.

But given how fast that yeast works I don't expect it'll drop much. Definitely not to 1.010.

 

[Arkhomer]

Awesome, thanks for all of the valuable information! Still learning all of the science behind the brewing process. I did not make a starter. The only time I have made starters is if I'm expecting an OG >1.060. Been pretty lucky with the liquid yeast so far.

Are there just not as many fermentable sugars in crystal malt as typical base malts??

 

[IslandLizard]

Are there just not as many fermentable sugars in crystal malt as typical base malts??

There are none or close to none. They give the resulting beer residual sweetness and caramel flavors as well as color.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It's also entirely possible that the person who wrote the recipe (especially if garnered from some internet rando on a forum) had a dodgy thermometer themselves leading to the impression you could hit 1.010 with that mash temp, gravity, grain bill and yeasy strain.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's also entirely possible that the person who wrote the recipe (especially if garnered from some internet rando on a forum)...

Those 2 pounds of crystal in a 1.048 OG recipe are the giveaway, aren't they?

In some otherwise really nicely produced beer "cookbooks" I've found 30% crystal in ESB recipes.

 

[kh54s10]

Because you never know how liquid yeast has been handled before you get it, I make a starter ANY time I use it. You will save yourself the headache of a fermentation not starting at all because of dead yeast. If the starter does not go, you know it BEFORE you add it to your wort.

 

[Arkhomer]

Another question on for those of you who are experienced with WLP007. When I pitched the yeast it was unlike any of the other white labs vials I have used. It was rather clumpy (or pasty) and not really in a true liquid state like the others I've pitched. Is that normal? I did some googling and I read it can be rather clumpy. I figured it was normal.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Egg drop soup soup sound about right?

It's a super flocculator.

 

[Arkhomer]

This calculator is handy
https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/

 

[rmyurick]

Hello folks,

I brewed an amber ale 12 days ago (1.048 OG). Pitched WLP007. Just checked the SG and got a reading of 1.018. Yeast pitched at ~68° and beer has been fermenting in temp controlled chamber at 68°. Still minimal activity in the airlock. Everything I have read that strain eats up sugars and finished out pretty quick. Not here.

Do you think I should wait it out a while or go ahead and add some type of yeast nutrient?

I have brewed with WLP001 and WLP004 10 days ago and 5 days ago respectively and those are both already down to 1.011. Thanks

Good replies here--i think that the high-ish mash temp and the high proportion of Crystal malt are probably the cause. However, don't be discouraged--it might be great. Don't worry too much about the numbers. Brulosophy X-beeriments have shown that people can't tell the difference between a 5% and a 6% beer. For an Amber ale, maltier might be better anyway.

 

[MrHadack]

Well I won't claim to know how to calculate attenuation rates.

Let's fix that! It's pretty easy. Look at your OG and current gravity. For simplicity, get rid of the "1." and any leading zeros. Subtract the current gravity from the OG.
48 - 18 = 30
Now figure out what % of 48 is 30:
30 / 48 = .625
Your yeast had an apparent attenuation of 62.5%. Of course, you can always use an online calculator like this one but it is good to understand how to find it manually.

I agree with most people about that the issue here was the combo of ~20% crystal malts combined with the 155F mash temp. The recipe you cited said to expect a FG 1.010, which would be 79% attenuation. Since WLP007 has an expected attenuation between 70-80%, that would be the very high end of the range. Very unlikely given the mash temp of 155F and 20% crystal malts.

I ran some scenarios in BeerSmith3 just to see what would be needed for this recipe to hit 1.010 FG. Under optimal conditions, and if everything went flawlessly, you could hit 1.010 if you mashed at 150F. So perhaps the 155F was a typo in the recipe?

Another point to note is recommended yeast pitch rates. Under ideal conditions and viability, a single vial of liquid yeast will give you roughly 100 billion yeast cells. Both Mr. Malty and BeerSmith3 calculated a pitch rate of 177 billion for this recipe. Meaning, if you only used a single vial of yeast without a starter you under-pitched. This can lead to low attenuation as well.

 

[Arkhomer]

Let's fix that! It's pretty easy. Look at your OG and current gravity. For simplicity, get rid of the "1." and any leading zeros. Subtract the current gravity from the OG.
48 - 18 = 30
Now figure out what % of 48 is 30:
30 / 48 = .625
Your yeast had an apparent attenuation of 62.5%. Of course, you can always use an online calculator like this one but it is good to understand how to find it manually.

I agree with most people about that the issue here was the combo of ~20% crystal malts combined with the 155F mash temp. The recipe you cited said to expect a FG 1.010, which would be 79% attenuation. Since WLP007 has an expected attenuation between 70-80%, that would be the very high end of the range. Very unlikely given the mash temp of 155F and 20% crystal malts.

I ran some scenarios in BeerSmith3 just to see what would be needed for this recipe to hit 1.010 FG. Under optimal conditions, and if everything went flawlessly, you could hit 1.010 if you mashed at 150F. So perhaps the 155F was a typo in the recipe?

Another point to note is recommended yeast pitch rates. Under ideal conditions and viability, a single vial of liquid yeast will give you roughly 100 billion yeast cells. Both Mr. Malty and BeerSmith3 calculated a pitch rate of 177 billion for this recipe. Meaning, if you only used a single vial of yeast without a starter you under-pitched. This can lead to low attenuation as well.

Wow. Excellent information. Thanks so much! [emoji106]

 

[Arkhomer]

Update. 16 days in and just checked specific gravity. Dropped from 1.018 to 1.016 over the last 4 days. Still little bubbles on top and slow activity in airlock. Dont think I've ever had one ferment this slowly but she is indeed still working.

 

[Arkhomer]

I had some bubbles in the hydrometer tube kind of like a carbonated beer. What does that indicate?

 

[kh54s10]

That there is co2 in your beer. Fermentation creates co2. Some is in solution when the beer is done fermenting. You then add priming sugar to increase the amount of dissolved co2 to the proper level to the style of beer. You should use a calculator to determine the proper amount of priming sugar.