WLP004 & Melomel & Cyser

[bakk]

Hey all.

I just wrapped up an Irish ale using WLP004, and have a bunch of washed yeast left over. I'm planning on doing another batch of beer with it (stout of some sort, or a porter maybe... I haven't decided), but I also am planning on making a cyser and a melomel next.

I have a bunch (20lbs?) of kirkland clover honey (not the greatest stuff, but I'm a newbie here, don't wanna shell out for the good stuff yet ) a packet of some D47, some blackberries, strawberries, and apple cider!

Here's my plan for some 1 gallon batches...

- Remove a few (3-4?) cups of cider from glass gallon jug
- Add clover honey to SG ~1.085-1.095 (most of the aeration/agitation may be accomplished here...)
- add 1/2-3/4 tsp yeast nutrient
- pitch ~1/2 cup of washed wlp004 slurry.
- aerate via agitation
- - add 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient every day for first 4 days, and agitate to degass.
- - - bottle when clear and fermentation has stopped (checking via gravity readings... etc)


Melomel Plan:

- Puree ~1lb of blackberries, ~1.5 lbs of strawberries, add to 1gal carboy
- Add ~2.5 lbs of honey (should add ~87.5 gravity points?)
- add 1/2-3/4 tsp yeast nutrient
- add ~1/2 cup washed wlp004 slurry
- top off with water to reach 1 gal.
- aerate via agitation
- - add 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient every day for first 4 days, and agitate to degass.
- - - bottle when clear... etc etc...


Am I completely missing the idea here? Or should these recipes relatively work as I'm planning..? I'm not sure how many gravity points blackberry & strawberry puree would add, though I'm fine with the melomel ending slightly sweeter (1.010-15??). I believe I read somewhere that the WLP004 has between 8-12% alcohol tolerance, so I might end up with much higher gravities than I intended, as I'm shooting for ~11% potential alcohol in the beginning.

I'm perfectly comfortable with messing these up as well, but I just want to make sure I'm not doing something obviously incorrect.

Tips, criticism, high hopes, good wishes, are all accepted!

Much obliged.


Edit: Modified yeast nutrient additions.

 

[loveofrose]

Hey all.



I just wrapped up an Irish ale using WLP004, and have a bunch of washed yeast left over. I'm planning on doing another batch of beer with it (stout of some sort, or a porter maybe... I haven't decided), but I also am planning on making a cyser and a melomel next.



I have a bunch (20lbs?) of kirkland clover honey (not the greatest stuff, but I'm a newbie here, don't wanna shell out for the good stuff yet ) a packet of some D47, some blackberries, strawberries, and apple cider!



Here's my plan for some 1 gallon batches...



- Remove a few (3-4?) cups of cider from glass gallon jug

- Add clover honey to SG ~1.085-1.095 (most of the aeration/agitation may be accomplished here...)

- add 1/2-3/4 tsp yeast nutrient

- pitch ~1/2 cup of washed wlp004 slurry.

- aerate via agitation

- - add 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient every day for first 4 days, and agitate to degass.

- - - bottle when clear and fermentation has stopped (checking via gravity readings... etc)





Melomel Plan:



- Puree ~1lb of blackberries, ~1.5 lbs of strawberries, add to 1gal carboy

- Add ~2.5 lbs of honey (should add ~87.5 gravity points?)

- add 1/2-3/4 tsp yeast nutrient

- add ~1/2 cup washed wlp004 slurry

- top off with water to reach 1 gal.

- aerate via agitation

- - add 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient every day for first 4 days, and agitate to degass.

- - - bottle when clear... etc etc...





Am I completely missing the idea here? Or should these recipes relatively work as I'm planning..? I'm not sure how many gravity points blackberry & strawberry puree would add, though I'm fine with the melomel ending slightly sweeter (1.010-15??). I believe I read somewhere that the WLP004 has between 8-12% alcohol tolerance, so I might end up with much higher gravities than I intended, as I'm shooting for ~11% potential alcohol in the beginning.



I'm perfectly comfortable with messing these up as well, but I just want to make sure I'm not doing something obviously incorrect.



Tips, criticism, high hopes, good wishes, are all accepted!



Much obliged.





Edit: Modified yeast nutrient additions.

I'll try to answer things in the order they were mentioned. I only have experience with WLP004 in beer, so you are on your own there.

First, if you use D47 for anything, you must keep it below 70 F to avoid a ton of fusels that take forever to age out if ever. If you cannot maintain low temperatures, move on. D47 is not for you.

Both recipes will go bone dry as stated. Not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on your preferred sweetness level. You can always stabilize and backsweeten or keep feeding small amounts of honey until the yeast give up if you think more sweetness is needed at the end.

You are on the right track with nutrients, but you need to make sure you have the right ones. I generally use a combo of DAP and Fermaid K. DAP provides free nitrogen while Fermaid K provides trace minerals and vitamins. Most "yeast nutrients" are one or the other. Either one alone will not do the job! You need both!Also, add on a schedule. I generally do additions at must creation, 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break. (If SG was 1.099, you would add at the very beginning, 1.066, and 1.033 for an example).

Lastly, I would add potassium carbonate (K2CO3) to buffer the massive ph swings mead has as well as provide potassium, a limited nutrient in honey.

Overall , I would say follow a BOMM protocol using your yeast. Hell, do it side by side with Wyeast 1388 and figure out which one you like better. I've got my bet, but you never know until you try!

Note: if you want a tried and abso-effing-lutely delicious cyser, look up my Cyser BOMM on gotmead. I cannot make that stuff fast enough!






Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

Found it!: http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22124&highlight=Bomm+cyser


Did you drop the oak & vanilla bean straight into primary? Or did you rack into a new carboy with oak and vanilla?

Also, per morebeer's website and description of fermaid K (http://morebeer.com/products/fermaid.html) it says:
"A complex formula that provides DAP, free amino acids, yeast hulls, unsaturared fatty acids, sterols, and micronutrients such as magnesium sulfate, thiamin, folic acid, biotin, calcium pantothenate, and other vitamins and minerals...."

Does this mean you're doubling up on the DAP additives when you're using a 1:2 DAP:fermaid K addition? Or is the version of fermaid K you're using not have DAP in it? On a side note, the "yeast nutrient" I bought from my lhbs isn't really labeled well, so I've no idea what types of nutrients are in it - should I assume they're lacking and get my hands on some DAP?

I'm glad to hear I'm on the right track with nutrient additions. I get what you're saying about the 1/3 & 2/3 sugar breaks, but I would much prefer to time nutrient additions rather than add based on gravity (mainly because I don't have a wine thief and checking gravity is still a messy process for me), though that will most likely change in the future. I seem to recall somewhere that those sugar breaks tend to occur somewhere around day 2 and 4? Am I terribly incorrect to blindly add nutrients at these times?

Also, I'm not planning on using the D47 here (or rather... I would prefer not to, barring a sudden outcry that using wlp004 is ludicrous), though I *am* hoping for a dry end product, hence attempting to stay within the 12% alcohol range of the wlp004. Though I guess that brings another, albeit slightly off-topic, question to light: if I were to use a yeast with a maximum attenuation (correct me if I'm using my terms wrong) of 12% and started with 11% dissolved sugars, would there be a difference in the resulting "dryness" of say... An 18% max attenuation yeast that I started with 15% potential alcohol? Obviously the yeasts would vary in taste in the end... But do yeasts vary in how "dry" they make the final product?

And finally, potassium carbonate? That's not the same as potassium sorbate, right? And potassium metabisulfate is use to *stop* fermentation, right? Does potassium carbonate have any other names? And I've noticed potassium bicarbonate come up in a few searches for carbonate, any reason to not use one or the other?

I guess my biggest questions still linger around nutrient additions. Though I've got some research to do on ph stabilizing!

Cheers



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

Never one. I found potassium carbonate. It still stands though, any reason to use carbonate over bicarbonate? (Other than the fact that potassium carbonate is cheaper?)


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[fatbloke]

As far as I'm aware, potassium carbonate is the best material to use as a pH buffer and reducer. Other materials are available but K carb is apparently the best or has the least downsides.......

 

[loveofrose]

Potassium carbonate (K2CO3) has more K+ and buffering capacity per weight than potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). As a result, you add less for the desired effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[loveofrose]

Lots of questions here. Let's take one at a time.

1. Did you drop the oak & vanilla bean straight into primary? Or did you rack into a new carboy with oak and vanilla?

Rack, then add both.

2. Does this mean you're doubling up on the DAP additives when you're using a 1:2 DAP:fermaid K addition?

While Fermaid K has DAP, it does not contain enough to fully supplement must.

3. I seem to recall somewhere that those sugar breaks tend to occur somewhere around day 2 and 4? Am I terribly incorrect to blindly add nutrients at these times?

Day 2 & 4 are generally pretty close. I think it would be fine if you cannot do gravity right now.

4. if I were to use a yeast with a maximum attenuation (correct me if I'm using my terms wrong)
Attenuation only applies to beer due to unfermentables sugars in grain. Honey is fully fermentable. Max tolerated ABV of your yeast is all that matters in mead. The reported max is a guideline established in beer or wine (depending on yeast type). In mead, the max depends on nutrient content, temperature, and various other factors. I tend to expect the yeast to do 2% lower than reported, then step feed up to the FG I want.

5. Obviously the yeasts would vary in taste in the end... But do yeasts vary in how "dry" they make the final product?
Perceived sweetness does indeed varies widely depending on the yeast. A FG of 1.000 with one yeast can be perceived as sweeter than another yeast at FG 1.000.

6. And finally, potassium carbonate? That's not the same as potassium sorbate, right? COMPLETELY different!

Hope that helps!





Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[JustinCider]

k1v-1116 is what i would use for the fruit meads....just sayin'

 

[brewski09]

K1 rocks for anything fruit based. I've done peach wine, peach melomel, and blueberry melomel with it. Couldn't go back now. The Irish ale year should perform fine though. I did the JAOM with notty and you could not tell.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[bakk]

k1v-1116 is what i would use for the fruit meads....just sayin'

I'm sure ill get around to using other yeasts, but I kinda want to get familiar with washing some yeast and explore the wlp004 in depth a bit. I've heard good things about 1116 though. I just think I'm too inexperienced to know the difference if I start using a different yeast for every batch! I figure ill do a cyser and melomel, with a few beers mixed in, with wlp004 and then move on a different one (saving bottles of each) to use in comparisons . I want to do so many things at once, it's difficult to decide!

Appreciate all input guys )


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewski09]

I'm sure ill get around to using other yeasts, but I kinda want to get familiar with washing some yeast and explore the wlp004 in depth a bit. I've heard good things about 1116 though. I just think I'm too inexperienced to know the difference if I start using a different yeast for every batch! I figure ill do a cyser and melomel, with a few beers mixed in, with wlp004 and then move on a different one (saving bottles of each) to use in comparisons . I want to do so many things at once, it's difficult to decide!

Appreciate all input guys )


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Getting used to a "house strain" of yeast is one of the best things I did when I started brewing. I used to wash my yeast but then realized I wasn't getting any notifiable benefits over simply capturing the yeast and doing a starter (which you are likely doing with the yeast washing anyway). I would recommend you try a batch of the same thing with washed and noon washed yeast to see if it's worth it or not. Just see if it's worth the risk of contamination that can happen sometimes. Enjoy and let us know how that Irish ale year works out for you (kinda curious myself)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[bakk]

Here's what I ended up doing for the cyser, based loosely off the BOMM cyser on gotmead:

Start with 1 gallon sprouts organic apple cider.
Removed 2.5 cups
Added 3 oz brown sugar
Added 1.4 cups honey (1c wildflower, .4c clover)
Added 4 dried dates
Added 2 dried figs
Added .5 tsp yeast nutrient (proprietary mix from LHBS)
Shook for ~5 minutes to aerate and mix.
Added washed slurry of wlp004 (~1 tablespoon of yeast cake, straight from fridge)

OG was 1.100

Sat in high 50's F in my kitchen overnight last night. Moved to dark cabinet that should sit at mid-high 60's midday.

Will add nutrients over the next few days. Per 2/3 & 1/3 sugar breaks. (I'm going to try and be reeeeal sanitary about pouring samples straight out of the carboy and taking hydrometer readings. I may even opt to pour them back in so I don't lose volume... dunn dunn...)

Wish me luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[loveofrose]

I just sanitize the hydrometer tied to string and drop it right it. Pull it out with the string when you are done. No wasting mead round here!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

I just sanitize the hydrometer tied to string and drop it right it. Pull it out with the string when you are done. No wasting mead round here!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Mmmmm. I've thought about that. I have. But I thought it wouldn't work because the string would affect the weight of the hydrometer or something..? I dunno haha. I'll definitely do that instead though. So much easier to take readings, so long as you don't have a huge fruit cap to punch through.

Cheers! Thanks for the tips.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

You know.... One quick question. Do you just add yeast nutrient directly to the must? Or should I mix it at all (more than light agitation during degassing?) to attempt to dissolve the nutrient?

(Hopefully someone gets back to me in the next couple days here, before I have to guess!)

Cheers!


P.s. day 1 resulted in no airlock activity so far. Though my dried fruit additions (moderately sliced to improve surface area) are sitting stoically on the bottom of the carboy.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[loveofrose]

I generally add the nutrient directly, but very slowly. Otherwise, you will have a mead explosion accident (MEA). Some people dissolve in water first, but that really doesn't make a lot of difference in my hands. Degassing before you add nutrient does help some.

Don't worry. It will dissolve with no help required as you will see.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

I generally add the nutrient directly, but very slowly. Otherwise, you will have a mead explosion accident (MEA). Some people dissolve in water first, but that really doesn't make a lot of difference in my hands. Degassing before you add nutrient does help some.

Don't worry. It will dissolve with no help required as you will see.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Gotcha. I'll agitate first then add nutrient after it slows down a little.

Day 2 update: obvious airlock activity and ~1cm of krausen (is it called something different for mead/ciders?). So my worries of under pitching are relieved. Agitated slowly by rocking carboy for about two minutes, but didn't take a gravity reading. And some of the fruit now appears to be floating? Or maybe I'm just imagining things...
Gravity update tomorrow!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[RegarRenill]

Try to make sure your fruit stays wet, especially as more starts to float. This is usually called "punching the cap." It make sure no nasties can start growing on your fruit and that you get maximum sugar and flavor extraction.

 

[bakk]

View attachment 184233

Almost a MEA last night!

Will update gravity in a few


Edit: actually... Can I even check proper gravity with the current krausen goin on? I don't know how, without guessing a little.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

Alright.

Day 4 update: emptied and refilled airlock (it was full of trub and cider-colored) so I could tell if fermentation decided to become vigorous again. When I removed the bung I sprayed a bunch (10ish) of sprays of starsan inside to knock down bubbles so I could take a gravity reading. Gravity was about 1.066-1.070 (pretty spot on with the 2/3 sugar break!) It was hard to tell. I also added another 1/2 tsp of the nutrient I got from my LHBS and agitated both before and after nutrient addition.

Any suggestions, feedback, or otherwise are gladly accepted!

Will update again in a day or two.

Cheers!



Edit: also, temp has been about 68-70 the entire time... I can't get lower temps where I live. Should I consider leaving it in a bucket of water with a damp shirt wrapped around it? Or should I not worry about it?

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewski09]

I'm not sure I would go spraying it with star San like that again. Probably fine, but I'm not sure what the effects would be if you continued this practice. I pull some of the wort out on my beers to test and then sample along the way.

Regarding the temps, I would think that would be a perfect temp range. What yeast did you use? I didn't see it when I looked back.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewski09]

Cancel that. Wlp004 should be really good in that range


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

I'm not sure I would go spraying it with star San like that again. Probably fine, but I'm not sure what the effects would be if you continued this practice. I pull some of the wort out on my beers to test and then sample along the way.

Regarding the temps, I would think that would be a perfect temp range. What yeast did you use? I didn't see it when I looked back.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Hmmm.. It did feel kinda weird. Haha. But I didn't know what else to do re: taking a reading. I don't know how easy it would be to pour liquid off, what with all the floating fruit. And there was too much foam to just drop a hydrometer in and not severely guess.

Ill have to do some reading on how late I can add starsan. I know people rack onto the foam all the time!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewski09]

I know star San is nutrient in small amounts, but it's also an acid. I would expect 7-10 days of actual fermentation with most beer yeasts in this gravity range, possibly longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[RegarRenill]

Get a wine thief and a graduated cylinder, it allows you to draw some of your must out for measurement. I just add it back in, as long as your hydrometer and graduated cylinder are sanitary there's minimal chance of infection and stealing a small bit to taste doesn't hurt, either.

 

[bakk]

Day 6: gravity is approx 1.053. I had to take a sample (which I mostly returned to the carboy) for I thought the hydrometer was bottoming out. I guess with the last two days I would have thought more fermentation would have happened? Hope it's not stalling now. I agitated a bunch and released a lot of air. I also poured most of the sample back, but kept about an ounce to sample, which I thought was excellent albeit a bit sweet.

Will update again soon!

Tips , comments etc, are all welcomed .


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bakk]

Day 8: Gravity is 1.043. I added the final 1/2 tsp of nutrient. We'll see what happens. I tasted a sample, and its got some kick to it! I think there's some unpleasant harshness to it that I hope mellows out eventually, definitely can see how the crisp appleness will (hopefully) shine through in the end. Ill just have to give it time to mellow before bottling. Not sure if I'm going to back sweeten or not yet, I'll have to see how dry it ferments first.

It's exciting!

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Edit: corrected "day 10" to "day 8".

 

[ivyscout]

My first batch was pretty hot too right after fermentation finished. Seems pretty normal for mead. I'm going to try Bray's One Month Mead for my next batch to try for something that mellows out quicker.

Sent from my HTCONE using Home Brew mobile app

 

[brewski09]

My first batch was pretty hot too right after fermentation finished. Seems pretty normal for mead. I'm going to try Bray's One Month Mead for my next batch to try for something that mellows out quicker.

Sent from my HTCONE using Home Brew mobile app

I noticed this on my earlier batches too. I control the ferm temps to 68f like my beers and stagger my nutrients now and have something drinkable in under a month if I want to. It is getting better with age though.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[bakk]

Day 9-10: pretty active fermentation still. I've agitated down some krausen laced with new yeast (that milky-thick foam with a yellow-orange color). And temps are holding closer to 67-68 according to my fermometer.
No gravity reading to update on though. Have been studying for finals. Will update in a day or two.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Edit: on another note... Does anyone have a preference on carbed or still cysers? I guess I was imagining the final product carbed, but I have more wine bottles than clear beer ones, and it might be nice as a dessert style beverage.
Just thinking.
Enjoy!

 

[bakk]

Day 12: gravity at 1.012. Woohoo! Home stretch . It smells great. I didn't taste it, but it doesn't have that offensive harsh ethanol bite to the nose anymore. I'be been slowing on agitating, not being as vigorous as day 1-6.

Any tips on clarity? It's still verrrrry murky (obviously agitation shouldn't help), and I wonder if it will clear on its own, or if I should cold crash...? The yeast cake on the bottom is thicker than my 5gal batches also, should I consider racking into another .8gal carboy?

Cheers!

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[brewski09]

Patience. It will clear with time. Meads can take a while, so just forget about it for a while.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app