WLP002

[ryanj]

I heard White Labs had some issues with WLP002 recently and stock was in short supply for the past few months. I finally got my hands on some and pitched it into a recent batch last week Saturday. But first, a little background:

1. I ferment in a stainless steel Anvil bucket fermentor
2. My fermentor sits in a temperature controlled chest freezer
3. I own a Tilt hydrometer, so I know exactly what's going on with my fermentation
4. I always aerate my wort with pure O2
5. I always use yeast nutrient in every batch
6. I almost always hit max advertised attenuation
   
7. For the first time in 2 years, I did not make a starter, but my OG was only 1.057, so I thought it was safe to skip just this once.

So let's take a look at this batch as it stands right now:

With my fermentation equipment and setup, most of my batches hit FG within ~2-3 days. I'm at 3.773 days and it would appear that we have stalled out at 1.027 (with 10 points to go until target FG). I'm holding at ~52.63% apparent attenuation which is just not enough.

I lightly rolled the fermenter a few times to rouse the yeast, and you can see that I raised the temp to encourage the yeast to finish up. I even pulled a sample to test with my refractometer, and it confirmed that I'm at about 1.025-1.027 (pending some variables).

I'm sure if I let it sit for a week or two, it'll drop a few more points, but I have a hard time seeing this drop another 10 points.

Does anyone know what kind of problems White Labs was having with this strain? The tube I bought arrived off the truck that day and was packaged maybe 2-3 weeks before it was pitched. Is it possible that I might be experiencing some of the issues that caused WL to hold off distributing this strain?

Any thoughts/tips?

 

[bigdawg86]

WLP002 flocculates harder than any yeast I have ever used. Even with a stirplate, the yeast flocculated into huge chunks that looks like the eggs in egg drop soup. Chances are if you were on the lower end of the fermentation temperature range, it flocc'ed out. I used this yeast on a high gravity beer and it stalled way sooner than expected. I would pitch some US05 and that will finish it out.

 

[ESBrewer]

The fermentation conditions seem to be fine, but the starter could have saved you... What kind of grains and mash schedule did u use?

 

[ryanj]

The fermentation conditions seem to be fine, but the starter could have saved you... What kind of grains and mash schedule did u use?

Here's the reciepe: http://brewgr.com/recipe/34488/robust-coffee-porter-recipe?public=true

I mashed 153F for 60 mins and then fly sparged for about 45-60 mins (longest sparge I've been able to accomplish with my new system).

 

[ryanj]

WLP002 flocculates harder than any yeast I have ever used. Even with a stirplate, the yeast flocculated into huge chunks that looks like the eggs in egg drop soup. Chances are if you were on the lower end of the fermentation temperature range, it flocc'ed out. I used this yeast on a high gravity beer and it stalled way sooner than expected. I would pitch some US05 and that will finish it out.

The weird thing is, I've brewed this same recipe with this WLP002 in the past and never had it stall so soon. As a matter of fact, the last time I brewed it, it looks like I pulled almost 80% attenuation (which sounds way too high for WLP002).

But the last time I brewed it, I made a starter. Honestly, I think that's where I messed up. WLP002 is chunky like you mentioned. Even squeezing it out the tube it was super difficult to get it all out since White Labs doesn't put a lot of liquid. I wonder if I under pitched.

So...I can go grab a pack of Wyeast 1968 today,...or I can do like you said and just pitch US05 to bring it down another 10 points to FG.

What do you think makes the most sense?

 

[ESBrewer]

Put some 1968 in there if you can do it quickly. This will retain the character of the beer and won't make it too dry. If you can't do it soon, then use US 05. I have had no problems with attenuation of this type of yeasts (wlp002/1968/Fuller's yeast extracted from bottle) but I have always made a fresh starter and probably slightly overpitched. Conditions are approximately same as you have (although I tend to use less special malts, but that probably does not have such a huge impact that you should stall at high 20s).

 

[ryanj]

Put some 1968 in there if you can do it quickly. This will retain the character of the beer and won't make it too dry. If you can't do it soon, then use US 05. I have had no problems with attenuation of this type of yeasts (wlp002/1968/Fuller's yeast extracted from bottle) but I have always made a fresh starter and probably slightly overpitched. Conditions are approximately same as you have (although I tend to use less special malts, but that probably does not have such a huge impact that you should stall at high 20s).

LHBS just confirmed they have some 1968 in stock. I think it's worth swinging by and grabbing a pack to finish out this batch.

After 2 years of making starters, I think this was a really bad strain to skip on. I'll keep that in mind next time.

 

[ryanj]

Yeah -- this batch is stalled for sure. Zero movement.

Just pitched some 1968 to hopefully finish this batch off. Lesson learned -- this strain needs to be overpitched.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

my OG was only 1.057, so I thought it was safe to skip just this once.

"only"? 1.057 must be in the top 5% or less of British beer, probably less than that if you looked at volumes. But generally, 1.060 is generally regarded as the limit for "simple" fermentations, and lots of dark speciality malts make it a bit more difficult for your yeasties. So I'd say that you were perhaps overly confident about the ease of fermentation.

I hadn't heard that they'd had problems with 002 specifically, but WL seem to have been struggling generally since their big diastaticus scare last year - Vault/seasonal strains arriving late etc.

If you're playing with 002/1968, it's worth having a read of this thread on temperatures etc.

 

[ryanj]

~17 hours after pitching and it's still holding at 1.026... gosh, I hope it didn't just drop to the bottom immediately...

 

[ryanj]

Well, looks like I wasted a pack of yeast... I pitched WYeast 1968 into 1.027 wort, dropped the temp back down to 68F and it basically just floc'd out immediately. My Tilt has been reading 1.025 for the past 18 hours.

I'm going to just let it ride for a bit. Unfortunately it's still just a little too sweet, so I might toss some US-05 in there to get it to 1.017 (target FG) and then crash immediately.

LESSON LEARNED: Always overbuild with these strains.

 

[ryanj]

Curious... I pitched that 1968 into 1.027 wort and almost nothing happened (2 point drop). I pitched the US-05 into 1.025 wort and it's looking like I'm getting the same result...maybe 1 to 2 point drop.

Because the wort's gravity isn't that high in sugar, are the yeast just refusing to get out of bed for something this weak?

Typically by 1 week (today) my beers are always at terminal FG. This one seems to be stepping 1 point per day, so I guess I'll just let it sit for another week in hopes I'll be at 1.019 or lower by next weekend when I can crash and keg it.

 

[specharka]

Curious... I pitched that 1968 into 1.027 wort and almost nothing happened (2 point drop). I pitched the US-05 into 1.025 wort and it's looking like I'm getting the same result...maybe 1 to 2 point drop.

Because the wort's gravity isn't that high in sugar, are the yeast just refusing to get out of bed for something this weak?

Typically by 1 week (today) my beers are always at terminal FG. This one seems to be stepping 1 point per day, so I guess I'll just let it sit for another week in hopes I'll be at 1.019 or lower by next weekend when I can crash and keg it.

It’s not the lack of sugar...it’s the absence of nutrients and presence of alcohol that prevents the yeast from propagating. Dry yeast has an upper hand over liquid and is probably your best bet after using fresh krausen.

But honestly at this point, if it tastes good just package it. There’s nothing inherently wrong about a beer finishing at 1.025 if it’s not cloyingly sweet.

 

[lablover]

Did you check the gravity with a hydrometer to be sure? No ding on the Tilt, but maybe it went off? Just checking.

 

[stickyfinger]

I've never had luck just dumping yeast into stalled beers. I would recommend getting a good starter of yeast fermenting and then slowly add in some of your wort and get that going and finally pitch the entire thing into your batch.

 

[ESBrewer]

At this point, I think we must consider the possibility that there is no more fermentable sugars in the wort. There could be something wrong with mash temp / pH / time combination and this combined with the high amount of special grains could leave it at a higher gravity than expected. Starting at the same gravity, my beers tend to reach FG1.010..11 using this type of yeast, but I regularly mash for full 1.5hrs at 148-151F and the grain bills contain only 5-10% specialty grains.

 

[ryanj]

Did you check the gravity with a hydrometer to be sure? No ding on the Tilt, but maybe it went off? Just checking.

Oh, the tilt is sending a reading. As a matter of fact, it looks like the beer is dropping 1 point every 24-36 hours, so I might just let that ride out until it flattens for a few days.

 

[ryanj]

It’s not the lack of sugar...it’s the absence of nutrients and presence of alcohol that prevents the yeast from propagating. Dry yeast has an upper hand over liquid and is probably your best bet after using fresh krausen.

But honestly at this point, if it tastes good just package it. There’s nothing inherently wrong about a beer finishing at 1.025 if it’s not cloyingly sweet.

Yeah, that makes sense... The last stalled batch I had, I decided to make a small starter and pitched it when it hit high krausen. This way the yeast were active and they made quick work of the remaining fermentable sugars in that batch of beer.

I knew better with this current batch... I knew I should have made a starter to begin with. I knew that before I pitched the second package of yeast I should have ALSO made a small starter just to get the yeast active first...

I made a lot of mistakes here, but I also learned some tough lessons and won't be making these mistakes again.

Currently holding at 1.023, so maybe another couple days and I'll be in a respectable range to crash and package.

 

[ryanj]

Well, it looks like it's gone as far as it's going to go. Tilt is showing 1.023 and refractometer is showing ~9 Brix (which converts to about 1.020 with Sean Terrill's calculator). The ABV wound up at about 4.7% which is under target, but still an acceptable range.

The good news is that the beer tastes pretty good, so I'll just chalk this up as a lesson learned.