WL820 problems

[WhiskeySam]

Background -- this is my 47th batch of beer and maybe my 12th lager -- so whatever your base level suggestion is for this problem has probably already been addressed.

Last Saturday I made a 1.066 OG Oktoberfest. 90 minute boil. Oxygenated the wort with pure 02 through a stone for somewhere between 2-3 minutes. Everything about the process of making the batch was perfect. No hiccups.

Prior to brew day, I made a 1600ML starter with WL820. Then, like I do with lagers, I made a larger starter from my first starter. 4000ML (that's over a gallon). I pitch a lot of yeast when making starters. This time I decided to split the yeast into two mason jars for storage. I'd done so well with lagers in the past that I thought I could get by with using half the yeast.

chilled my wort to 50 degrees -- I follow the John Palmer lager method of chilling to pitch temperature. I hate the idea of chilling to 70, pitching and then chilling to 50 and I won't do that.

Pitched half of the collected yeast on Saturday. Nothing Sunday. Nothing Monday. So I pitched the second half of the yeast on Monday night. Nothing Tuesday, Wednesday or this morning.

This brings me back to when I made my first lagers and underpitched them. But there is SO MUCH YEAST in this wort. I know the science is all there, the wort has sugar, o2 and yeast and I know it will eventually kick off, but gesh, this is frustrating.

Then I realized, my last OFest I made a year ago used WYEAST's Oktoberfest blend. I've used the WL820 before and I typically use WL yeast, but last year I used Wyeast.

Has anyone had a problem with WL820 this season?

 

[3toes]

No personal experience with wlp820, but White Labs themselves claim that it's a much slower starter in its first generation... What was your lag time like the last time you used the 820?

That seems like a TON of yeast. Weird.

Any movement with a hydrometer reading?

 

[WhiskeySam]

The last time I used 820 was two years ago. I remember it being slow, but that might just be a general memory of some random lager. All lagers take a while to kick, even with that much yeast (the temperature really slows it down). But this seems excessive.

no hydrometer readings. I don't like taking them until the end of the road.

I KNOW it will kick. I know it. The science is all right, it's just a matter of chemistry at this point.

 

[Jakor]

I just started lagering my oktoberfest brewed with this yeast. I didn't have the capabilities to make as large of a starter as you, but my vial was almost brand new, so vitality was pretty high. I pitched a 2L starter at about 54F and I had signs within 24 hours. The fermentation almost blew off.

What I would suggest is to definitely bring up the fermentation temperature to at least 53F. White Labs says the optimal temperature range for this is 52-58F. The biggest issue people have is low attenuation, and not so much off flavors, so I would recommend fermenting warmer to get as much out of the yeast as possible. My batch fermented from 1.058 to 1.018, to give you something to compare to.

 

[WhiskeySam]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try it out.

 

[WhiskeySam]

Update. I pitched three vials of fresh 820 from LHBS Friday. Took a hydrometer reading Friday -- 1.066. Same at when wort transfer

Tonight -- a layer of krausen exists! It beings.. Unleash the kraken.

 

[Jakor]

Glad to hear it! Did you increase the ferment temp too or only pitch more yeast? If so that's interesting that your vial had no live yeast in it anymore.... Usually at least some of the sugars would have been consumed.

 

[Arttu]

I bought some slightly expired 820 and built it up over several starters (3x1.5 litres). It was my first lager and I only had 7ish weeks to get the beer ready so I was terrified after reading horror stories about how slow this yeast was.

Still, I went ahead and pitched it. I actually had activity in about 18 hours (@13 celcius) and the beer ended up being a success at a party.

I wonder if the 3-step starter had something to do with it, as White Labs says the first generation is much slower.

I'm currently crashing another starter of the same yeast, brewing a pilsener tomorrow.

 

[mkeckjr]

I have used this yeast many times and almost always have that same problem, which is why I've totally bailed on it. Last time I documented it here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=472973

 

[WhiskeySam]

I added three vials of new yeast three days ago. I'm fermenting now.

The yeast used in my starter must have been heat damaged or something.

 

[WhiskeySam]

Gravity after one week w starter yeast showed no fermentation after 6 days