Wit Beer Recipe Critique

[DuckAssassin]

In the interest of making a more widely accepted beer (read something the SWMBO will drink), I am trying to put together something in the Blue Moon genre. There is a Blue Moon extract post with a few recipes in it, but there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus on which to go with. I am trying to take parts of each with this effort. Let me know if I am barking up the wrong tree.

Batch volume - 5 Gallons
Boil volume - 3 gallons

3 lbs Wheat DME (1/2 added at FO)
2 lbs Extra Light DME (1/2 added at FO)
1 lb Orange Blossom Honey (at FO)
8 oz. Belgian Candi Sugar (Clear) (10 min)
1 oz. Hallertau Hops (45)
1/2 oz. Cascade Hops (10)
1/2 oz. Corriander Seed-Crushed (10)
1/2 oz. Corriander Seed-Crushed (FO)
1 oz. Orange Peel (FO)
Yeast - White Labs Belgian Wit Ale WLP400

I wasn't planning on straining this, so the corriander and orange peel would go into the fermenter, but if this is a bad idea, i can certainly strain it just as easily. My plan is for 3 weeks in the primary, then straight to the bottle.

Also considering additional 1/2 oz. of Cascades at FO, but I realize that this may not be in keeping with the style.

My primary concern is whether I am over-dosing on fermentables (I plan to get Beersmith soon). This is only my third brew, so I would appreciate any and all thoughts, including scathing criticisim if warranted.

 

[Fat Guy Brewing]

I can't help with Beersmith. But, what specifically are you doing for orange peel? Get a zester and use the zest of 3-5 oranges for the last 10 minutes of the boil. Fresher is better. I use 5 tablespoons of powdered coriander, not sure how that equates to ounces. I would skip the extra cascade. I think the wit is best served with less hops so the spices come through. There are plenty of other styles that can be hopped up.

 

[phissionkorps]

I didn't strain mine and it came out great. I left everything in the primary and skimmed the orange peel off the top after a week. Taste the coriander first and adjust from there. I was able to chew a coriander seed and not gag, so I used 0.7oz. Personally, I'd go with a 5 min boil for both the orange peel and coriander.
With all those fermentables, you're overshooting the OG by .002 for the style. If that's important to you, cut out the candy sugar and cascades, and change the hallertau addition to 60.

 

[Bob]

With the candisugar and honey, this beer will finish awfully dry. I'd omit them and stick with the malt. ProMash puts the original extract/sugars at OG 1058; just the malt is 1046, which is appropriate for Witbier.

Omit the Cascades, both at 10 minutes and flameout. Go with the bittering charge only. First, finishing hops aren't really appropriate for the style (none of the famous commercial benchmarks use them); second, strongly-flavored hops like Cascades clash rather horribly with the spices. Witbier, like many Belgian-style ales, is all about the flavors developed from the yeast and spices. You work too hard to put those complex, delicate flavors in the beer to mask it with Cascades' grapefruit. I think the Hallertau addition at 45 is plenty; it should give you ~18 IBU, which is plenty.

CF and I agree on the hops; we disagree on the orange peel: Fresher is not necessarily better, IMO. Yes, fresh zest does taste different from dried peels. It is also less expensive. However, dried Curacao orange peel is the most traditional ingredient; without it, you will experience extreme difficulty getting that "classic" flavor profile. Me, I use a mix of bitter and sweet peels, coriander and grains of paradise cracked in a clean coffee mill, and I'm done.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Soulive]

With the candisugar and honey, this beer will finish awfully dry. I'd omit them and stick with the malt.

You don't think the DME will balance them out? When I used to brew extract, I would add different fermentables to help dry out the extract. It worked for me...

 

[Bob]

Depends on what brand of extract, sir. Muntons, for instance, ferments quite dry (75% AA). Laaglander - which I understand is no longer available - fermented quite full-bodied (~50% AA). North American extracts are somewhere in between (65-70% AA). Thus, if Muntons DME is chosen, the addition of brewing sugar can easily produce too dry and thin a finished beer.

Further, Witbier has a classic ingredient which cannot effectively be used in an extract-only or extract-and-steep technique: Flaked oats and/or flaked raw wheat. These grains provide a certain amount body and a considerable amount of mouthfeel to partial-mash or all-grain grists. Lacking that, an extract-only recipe is ill-served by thinning the body even more with the addition of brewing sugars.

That's my considered opinion, anyway!

Bob

 

[Soulive]

Depends on what brand of extract, sir. Muntons, for instance, ferments quite dry (75% AA). Laaglander - which I understand is no longer available - fermented quite full-bodied (~50% AA). North American extracts are somewhere in between (65-70% AA). Thus, if Muntons DME is chosen, the addition of brewing sugar can easily produce too dry and thin a finished beer.

Further, Witbier has a classic ingredient which cannot effectively be used in an extract-only or extract-and-steep technique: Flaked oats and/or flaked raw wheat. These grains provide a certain amount body and a considerable amount of mouthfeel to partial-mash or all-grain grists. Lacking that, an extract-only recipe is ill-served by thinning the body even more with the addition of brewing sugars.

That's my considered opinion, anyway!

Bob

I agree that the lack of oats will only increase the dry mouthfeel, but I was talking about the attenuation. Witbier is usually silky smooth, but at the same time on the drier side. I don't think under-attenuating can duplicate the mouthfeel of oats. In most extract brews, the under-attenuating just leads to cloying sweetness rather than smooth silkyness. If the honey and sugar are cut out, I'd try to use very attenuative yeast...

 

[Sherpa FE]

I would just like to add, be careful with the coriander, I used just .50 oz in a 10 gallon batch, and did not dry hop any in the secondary, and there is PLENTY of coriander flavor in there.

If you crush the seeds your self, just crack them, if you put them in a processor, and really blend them in, it will be too strong, and I dont think you will like the finished product.

Flaked wheat definately adds great flavor to the beer.

Also, might want to add some orange peel to the secondary, maybe .75 oz.
if you want check under the recipes under my name, and it can give you a comparison. I know it is AG, but if you wish, I can convert it to an extract batch tonight.

Hope this helps.
Josh

 

[DuckAssassin]

That is great stuff, thank you all very much for your help. I am sure it will result in better beer. Staying true to the style is definitely a goal, and more importantly, I would like to get a basic recipe down and maybe tinker with it later. I clearly need to do some more reading on recipe creation. As to your comments:

FGB - That is basically what I was thinking about doing. I planned to add the orange peel at flame-out, but I will move it to the boil as suggested.

Phissionkorps - I will drop the cascades. My thought there was that the cascade fruit flavor would go well with the style, but I can see how it would over-power. I like a lot of hops, so I need to keep myself in check when heavy hopping is not appropriate.

Soulive - Since this is in part for the wife, I will probably drop the sugars and honey for the main batch. I may do a gallon batch with a bit of honey to see how it would come out.

Bob - Thanks for the details on the fermentables. You mentioned difficulty in achieving this style with extract. Do you think it would benefit from steeping some oats or wheat? I have considered moving to a partial mash (which I realize is different from steeping), but I don't know if that is moving to the deep end too quickly. Also, I believe the extract will be Breiss.

Thanks again to all for your input.

 

[Soulive]

You can make witbier successfully with extract. Although if you are able to use the oats/wheat, it would be beneficial...

 

[DuckAssassin]

Soulive - My understanding of steeping is that it adds some sugar, but much of it is unfermentable. Is this correct? If so, what do you think about adding 1/2 pound each of wheat and oats to steep for 20 minutes. If this will add too much sugar, I can drop down the DME a little. Sounds like this will really help the overall profile.

Sherpa - Thanks for the heads up. I read about corriander being fairly strong. My plan is to put some in a ziplock bad and crack them lightly with a wooden mallet. Should I go with just half an ounce? Sounds like you had half an ounce in 10 gallons, but it looks like you also had black pepper which may have kicked it up a little. I can always start with half an ounce and add a little later if necessary.

 

[Soulive]

Soulive - My understanding of steeping is that it adds some sugar, but much of it is unfermentable. Is this correct? If so, what do you think about adding 1/2 pound each of wheat and oats to steep for 20 minutes. If this will add too much sugar, I can drop down the DME a little. Sounds like this will really help the overall profile.

You want the oats/wheat to add unfermentables. Those are what create the smooth mouthfeel in the end. 1/2lb of each would be good and I used 1lb of oats in my Witbier. I would steep if I were you...

 

[Bob]

Soulive,

+1. You can make pretty darn good extract Witbier.

Addressing your comment on the dry finish, I suspect this has more to do with the slight amount of lactic acid in the beer, along with the ester profile, than with attenuation. Of course, attenuation helps, and it may be all that can be done to a recipe like this (other than adding lactic acid or mashing acidulated malt).

Mr Assassin -

To answer your question directly, no, steeping flaked grains won't do much. At least, it never did when I tried it; it just turned into a gloppy mess! After all, there is no appreciable difference between brewer's flaked oats and Quaker quick oats - and what happens when you add hot water to those? It turns into a sticky, gloppy mess!

YMMV. You have nothing to lose by trying to steep a pound or so of flaked oats. I'd get a pound of crushed Pils malt or pale ale malt from your LHBS to go with it. Do a steep in a gallon of water; do your best to hold the temperature at 155F for at least a half-hour. Rinse that grain with a teakettle of hotter water into your main brewpot. That's between a steep and a mini-mash; good practice for later!

Bob

 

[Sherpa FE]

As far as how much to put in, your taste buds will have to determine the final amount, I brewed a total of 40 gallons (4 batches) playing with the amount of coriander, and orange, before I found the right mixture for me.

I think you will be fine with .50 oz, and thats how I crush them, in a zip lock bag with a rubber mallet. Again, just enough to crack them.

 

[Fat Guy Brewing]

I used flaked oats in another extract recipe only I threw it in to boil with the extract. All it did was make the beer cloudy. Can you get the benefit of flaked wheat by just steeping it instead of boiling it?

 

[Sherpa FE]

It adds a wheat flavor to the beer, and indeed as you noticed, it does give it a cloudiness. Yes you can get the same cloudiness from steeping.
I wouldnt boil the wheat though.

 

[DavoFromBmo]

I would be careful with the coriander (<= 0.5 oz) and only split the seeds in half. Also I prefer fresh orange peel. I would forget the Cascade for an authentic Wit. Hallertau, Saaz, and Tettnanger are the way to go. If you want to be adventurous and try a new style, go with the Cascade. It won't taste like a true Wit, but, who knows, it could be excellent.