Wine Yeast/Ale Yeast Question

[Gytaryst]

While weeding thru Tripel Karmeliet clone recipes I stumbled on a recipe that used WLP 720 Sweet Mead/Wine Yeast. I thought it sounded interesting so I started looking into it a little further. From what I learned wine/mead yeast can't ferment maltotriose, and since grapes or honey don't have it it's not a problem. Grain does produce it however. I also learned that WLP 720 yeast will kill ale yeast if you try to blend them. It was suggested to split the batch and pitch WLP 720 in half and ale yeast in the other half. Then cold crash and filter out all the yeast, blend them back together and add ale yeast and sugar for conditioning.

It sounds like an interesting process - curious if anyone has tried it and if it ends up being way more work than it's worth?

 

[couchsending]

I believe the wine yeast excreats a protein that kills the susceptible brewing yeast and once the protein is in there Ale Yeast will die. You can prime with wine yeast that is killer as well though.

You can also buy enzymes that will break down the maltotriose into simpler sugars that the mead/wine yeast can consume.

 

[z-bob]

There's a wine yeast that can process maltotriose: K1V-1116. I was just about to start a thread about it when I saw this one. I want to try it and not sure what style to brew. I think maybe something simple using pilsner malt, a little vienna, and noble hops. (like a tripel, but not quite as strong because I'll leave out the sugar)

 

[Gytaryst]

Yeah, I was curious about that process of splitting the batch, fermenting half with Mead/Wine yeast and half with ale yeast, and then blending the two back together. It seems like it could produce some interesting flavors, esters and characteristics. After I read whatever it was I read, (I can't find it now), it seemed like an interesting idea. I decided there's too many variables and unknowns for me. It might be a fun experiment later - for now I have enough trouble with the basics.

 

[couchsending]

There’s a Brewing Network session episode from maybe way back in 06 or 08 (can’t remember) with Shea Comfort (aka the Yeast Whisperer). I would highly highly recommend it if this interests you at all. One of the best and most informative Session episodes I’ve ever listened to. He works or worked for Lallemand but is also an avid homebrewer. There’s also a great talk on Oak.

 

[madscientist451]

A quick search about using WL 720 in beer turned up this tidbit:

Re: Wine Yeast in Beer
Not sure if it will help but I brewed a strong brown ale in 2007 using the WLP720 (Sweet Mead/Wine Yeast). The fermentation went fine, though apparent attenuation was a little lower than anticipated. Perhaps having done a cooler mash would have give a better attenuation in line with what I was anticipating but the beer came out to be pretty good and very interesting. The only thing that bothered me with that yeast is that it left a unusual fruitiness that only faded away after 2 years of age. I tasted that same kind of fruitiness on a friend�s scotch ale which he used wine yeast (different strain) to complete fermentation that had stuck with its scottish ale yeast. Not that this characteristic was bad but it was very strong and kind of overpowered the other flavors for a while.

Here's the source for the above, some interesting discussion:

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1275037001

It would be interesting to use the WL 720 to make a high ABV Graff with the idea that leaving some residual sweetness would help balance the apple acidity/tartness.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks for that link. Tons a great info on that thread and would love to know how a few of those beers turned out.

BM45 is definitely interesting to me. A wine yeast primary with a Brett secondary is what I’ve been toying around with brewing the last few months. Probably wouldn’t need the enzymes, just a decent pitch of Brett after the wine yeast finished out.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

While weeding thru Tripel Karmeliet clone recipes I stumbled on a recipe that used WLP 720 Sweet Mead/Wine Yeast.

The Gallone DNA sequencing paper found that about 10% of the Belgian "beer" yeasts they tested were genetically wine yeast, along with one from a German beer and one that is probably WLP099 Super High Gravity. That last one suggests their strength - they tend to have high alcohol tolerance. But because wine is generally fermented just once a year, wine yeasts in general are less "domesticated" than beer yeasts - they don't ferment maltotriose, are mostly POF+ and so on.

If you're looking for another left-field option that same paper did some limited phenotype characterisation and WLP050 Tennessee Whiskey looks worth a try - unlike most distilling yeasts it's POF- and doesn't produce many fusels but is quite estery, although that's not to say it doesn't produce some weird flavours that they didn't test for. I've got some sitting in the fridge waiting for a play.

 

[Gytaryst]

... It would be interesting to use the WL 720 to make a high ABV Graff with the idea that leaving some residual sweetness would help balance the apple acidity/tartness.

I stumbled across this link in my search so my interest shifted. I plugged the numbers for this 1679 recipe into BeerSmith II and this is my next brew. Found Spelt malt at a local Asian market here, (I never even heard of Spelt before). I'm just going to use Wyeast #3787 for the first attempt, but I might try adding clear candi sugar, bumping up the abv and playing around with Mead/Wine yeast afterwards.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Wheat/spelt/barley is the classic grist for Luyks beer, which developed in Liege in the 16th century and seems to have been based on improved hops - certainly it was the first beer that was sufficiently well-hopped that it could be cellared for the year or transported long distances without going off. There were two sorts, biere de jeune which was for immediate drinking and biere de saison which had no barley and was kept for longer.

If you want more on this kind of thing and can read Dutch then you should get hold of Marco Daane's Bier in Nederland: een biografie.

These are most recent (Jan 2015) Liege beer guidelines by D. Walsh. Note the requirement for a clean yeast - WLP515 Antwerp would be the obvious one, but its near relative BRY-97/WLP051 California V is easier to find - or just Chico.

Brewing grains for Liege beer are exclusively spelt, wheat and barley according to the proportions below:-

- Malted spelt (±3-7 EBC), minimum 55 weight % of the grist.
- Unmalted wheat (±2-3 EBC), maximum 25 weight % of the grist.
- Pils- or Pale Ale malt (±2-9 EBC), maximum 20 weight % of the grist.

Liege beer should be golden-amber colored (ranging from 15 to 30 EBC). The color of the malt/grain mixture will before cooking be no more than 11 EBC. Therefore a total 1.5 - 2 hours of cooking (30 - 60 minutes without followed by 60 minutes with hops) is advised to reach ± 20 EBC.

Hops are only the older European/English landraces (aroma varieties):
Hallertau Mittelfrüh, Saaz Saaz, Tettnang Tettnang, Hersbruck-/Hallertau Hersbrucker (Spät), Lubelski Lublin, Elzasser Strisselspalt, Styrian (Savinjski) Goldings, Kent-/Hereford Goldings of Kent-/Hereford Fuggles.

Other additions like herbs, spices, plants, fruits, wood-chips etc. are not allowed.

Hop-bitterness should be around 30 - 60 EBU.

og of the beer is between 1.060 and 1.075 s.g. / 14.7 – 18.2° Plato (brewhouse efficiency ± 75%).

Liege beer is fermented with a neutral yeast (no Bavarian Wheat beer strain, Saison or wild yeast) with a moderate degree of attenuation between 70 - 80%.

Alcohol by volume should be between 6 - 8%.

The beer may be somewhat hazy.

Should at least contain a lasting layer of foam.

[hat-tip to Dorst on BrewUK for all of this, I'm just the messenger]