Wine Barrel Lambic Project

[claphamsa]

**** this sucks, wont post pics! they are in my gallery

 

[Ryan_PA]

Stinking gubberment employee...

Looks good, keep the cat away from my barrel!

 

[claphamsa]

he was inspecting!

 

[Beernip]

I think you have to ferment out the new wort every year and rack it in to the barrel. You can always adjust how much you take out/leave in the barrel to get the right level of sourness.

Interesting project btw. Look forward to following your progress.

 

[Ryan_PA]

Here is the current version of the recipe we are working on, basic as it gets:

Lambic

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

20-A Lambic & Belgian Sour Ale, Straight Lambic-style Ale

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.056
Min IBU: 10 Max IBU: 15
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 15 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 60.00 Wort Size (Gal): 60.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 109.09
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.82
Anticipated SRM: 3.2
Anticipated IBU: 14.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 240 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 150.00 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.021 SG 5.26 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.0 76.36 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
30.0 32.73 lbs. Wheat Unmalted Belgium 1.038 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops (Saaz listed, may use other low AA sub, or aged hops)

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.91 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 14.1 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3526 Brettanomyces Lambicus (5 gallon starter batch to be pitched with barrel wort, 2 separate 5 gallon batches will get individual pitches)


Mash Schedule
-------------
Will follow either turbid mash or wyeast mash process in Wild Brews

 

[jezter6]

Holy Shnikes!

150g pre-boil?????

Even 2 of the big pots aint gonna do that.

Also, I thought we were doing a 50g final + 5 starter = 55g in a 60g fermenter?

 

[Ryan_PA]

Yeah, we will have to boil the first runnings, add second runnings, boil, add third... to accommodate the pre boil. We will need to use the big kettle and some keggles I assume. Something tells me our volume is gonn be wrong since there is so much psudo guess work. We need to err on the high side.

We need to get 55G in the barrel (50G fresh wort + 5G starter). This will leave 10G head space since it is a 65G barrel. We also need 10G of lambic with individual yeast pitches outside of the barrel to top up once primary completes. I really think we should assume we will have 15G of extra to be safe.

I did confirm from somone that used the 55G setup that my burner will hold a full kettle, so we should be cool as-is, although, I may still bring some cinder blocks to be safe...

 

[jezter6]

Well, if you have access to a truck - we have possibly 2 kettles and 2 mash tuns - all of the 55g drum variety.

I think Stefin's gonna have to get up at 5am just to get the water ready. Getting that much strike and sparge up to temp is gonna take a few hours.

 

[Ryan_PA]

Anyone want to brew a coffee stout for brewday?

I have a pickup for the add'l drums. Can we pick them up on Friday?

 

[jezter6]

We can pick them up any day after Wednesday.

I'm starting to think I need to take Friday off just to get this whole thing done.

We might have to brew in shifts over a few days - one guy sleeping, 2 guys working.

I can just see the guy falling asleep during the boil and waking up to massive boilover.

 

[claphamsa]

Anyone want to brew a coffee stout for brewday?

I have a pickup for the add'l drums. Can we pick them up on Friday?

I happen to have a keg of brekfast stout! we can make sure its available

 

[Ryan_PA]

I can just see the guy falling asleep during the boil and waking up to an epic boilover.

Fixed that for you

 

[jezter6]

I happen to have a keg of brekfast stout! we can make sure its available

Most excellent!!!!

That and some mead and I'll be the guy sleeping during the boilover.

 

[jezter6]

Ok, just doing some quick calcs...1.25 quarts of strike water per pound of grain is ....34 gallons of strike water.

Which means we're gonna be sparging with close to 120+ gallons.

Obviously we'll have to split that up into 2 or even 3 batch sparges...Anyone have a fly sparging rig we can use? I'd hate to have this be our first ever attempt at fly sparging, but I have some concerns about how this is all going to work out...

 

[Ryan_PA]

Come on, has there ever been a single issue with one of our brew days?

I can ask around for a fly sparge arm, or we can just make one with a temporary rig job. Some soft copper and a drill and we are golden, but you have to keep in mind this is not a traditional mash/sparge. We have to do a funky schedule, similar to pulling many decoctions to convert the wheat.

 

[Bokonon]

Come on, has there ever been a single issue with one of our brew days?

I can ask around for a fly sparge arm, or we can just make one with a temporary rig job. Some soft copper and a drill and we are golden, but you have to keep in mind this is not a traditional mash/sparge. We have to do a funky schedule, similar to pulling many decoctions to convert the wheat.

One of the commercial stands that recirculates just has a piece of silicone tubing sitting on top of the mash. I just use a piece of tubing pouring onto a piece of foil. As long as you keep 1-2" of water on top of the mash I don't see what benefits there are for a sparge arm (other than the liquor cooling as it goes through the air)

 

[Ryan_PA]

So for my 5G batch, I stole the mash sched from Mike (Oldsock) blog - Link.

Here is the schedule:

5.25 Gallon Batch Size Mash Schedule
Step 1 - 5 Gallons of water heated to 144*
Step 2 - 2.5 Quarts of heated water mixed with grist - grain should rest at 113*
Step 3 - Boil remaining water
Step 4 - Rest mash 20 minutes
Step 5 - 4 Quarts added of boiling water - rest at 136*
Step 6 - Rest 5 minutes
Step 7 - 1 Quart of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (first turbid)
Step 8 - 6 Quarts of boiling water added to mash - rest at 150*
Step 9 - Rest mash 30 minutes
Step 10 - Raise temp of 1 quart turbid liquid to 176*
Step 11 - 4 Quarts of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (second turbid), add to first turbid
Step 12 - 5 Quarts of boiling water added to mash - rest at 162*
Step 13 - Heat turbid 1 and turbid 2 to 176*
Step 14 - Heat sparge water to 185*
Step 15 - Add 176* turbid liquid back to mash to rest at 165-167*
Step 16 - Rest 10 minutes
Step 17 - 9 gallons collected from sparge

I took this same logic and multiplied each infusion/pull by ~11.43 (60G/5.25G) and then converted quarts to gallons to make it US friendly. At a glance there appears to be a huge volume difference between what ProMash calculated and the turbid mash process (ProMash = 150G pre boil, calculation=103G pre boil):

60 Gallon Batch Size Mash Schedule
Step 1 - 57.1 Gallons of water heated to 144*
Step 2 - 7.1 Gallons of heated water mixed with grist - grain should rest at 113*
Step 3 - Boil remaining water
Step 4 - Rest mash 20 minutes
Step 5 - 11.4 Gallons added of boiling water - rest at 136*
Step 6 - Rest 5 minutes
Step 7 - 2.9 Gallons of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (first turbid)
Step 8 - 17.1 Gallons of boiling water added to mash - rest at 150*
Step 9 - Rest mash 30 minutes
Step 10 - Raise temp of 2.9 Gallons turbid liquid to 176*
Step 11 - 11.4 Gallons of mash liquid pulled after vorlauf (second turbid), add to first turbid
Step 12 - 14.3 Gallons of boiling water added to mash - rest at 162*
Step 13 - Heat turbid 1 and turbid 2 to 176*
Step 14 - Heat sparge water to 185*
Step 15 - Add 176* turbid liquid back to mash to rest at 165-167*
Step 16 - Rest 10 minutes
Step 17 - 102.9 gallons collected from sparge

Does anyone know if there is a fatal error in my simple calculation?

I have added the calculation spreadsheet.
View attachment Lambic Sched.zip

 

[Oldsock]

I think the problem is that you would not get the same boil off percentage from the larger kettle (it seems like even "just" 40 gallons would take considerably more than 4-5 hours to boil off). That is because as volume increases the surface area of the kettle does not increase proportionally. You might want to do a wet run and see how much water you can boil off in an hour before brewday.

Also you may want to up the grain from my recipe as I came in under gravity a bit and had to add a bit of DME to get it on target. You may also want to aim for more than 60 gallons so you have extra for topping off, loss etc...

I feel like you said somewhere that you are brewing this in Maryland. Where/when are you doing it? I’m in DC, so if timing/location works out I'd be happy to lend a hand (and some beer) if you guys toss me a six pack of the finished product.

 

[Ryan_PA]

Stefin will have to post the actual town, but it is right outside of DC. The brew date is 10/10.

You are right, boil off is what I am missing. I believe the MD Brewday crew had this issue with a previous group brew. I will have to make some adjustments and repost.

 

[jezter6]

Come on, has there ever been a single issue with one of our brew days?

I can ask around for a fly sparge arm, or we can just make one with a temporary rig job. Some soft copper and a drill and we are golden, but you have to keep in mind this is not a traditional mash/sparge. We have to do a funky schedule, similar to pulling many decoctions to convert the wheat.

Looks like the mash part is funky, but so far - the sparge just seems to be "sparge"....with no funky steps.

120g of sparge is going to be...a nightmare.

 

[Ryan_PA]

Eh, it is a risk/reward thing in my book. It isn't like taking some honey and shaking in some water then tossing in a yeast pack, ya know...

 

[claphamsa]

Takoma PArk 20912

 

[Oldsock]

Takoma PArk 20912

I recently bought a house on the DC side of Takoma Park (moving in on Saturday)... so if you guys want a hand, just let me know.

Edit: Crap, just saw 10/10, I'll be up in MA for an extended Columbus Day weekend.

 

[claphamsa]

ooo a local! w00t!

 

[Oldsock]

ooo a local! w00t!

We'll have to get together for a (more moderate) brew some day.

 

[Ryan_PA]

I've got the starter batch going now. I will be wrapping up the mash in about an hour, currently sparging. The previously posted mash schedule, while appearing fairly complicated, were very strait forward and easy. I would not recommend this mash schedule if you are drinking during the brew, but it does make for a seemingly quick mash. You are constantly doing something. I will be boiling tomorrow first thing. 240 minute boil, so yeah, not happening tonight.

 

[Ryan_PA]

Oh, one thing well worth noting, milling raw wheat sucks hardcore. Good thing we can get it milled from north country. I really think I shortened the life of my drill by 50% just crushing 3 lbs.

 

[Ryan_PA]

Starter batch is done and in the bucket, anxiously awaiting a new home.

 

[Ryan_PA]

So I have my 3rd batch of beer fermenting on the Roselare blend. The cell count is huge since I just kept pitching on the yeast cake. The second ferment took off in a matter of 3-4 hours and completed in like 3 days. The third ferment was just moved to the fermenter tonight again on the same yeast cake. After this completes, there will be lots of healthy and hungry yeast cells in there. Should I save this for lambic day? The 4th generation should have a higher level of acidity than the previous 3 batches. Thoughts?

 

[Ryan_PA]

Just under a month from brewday!!! I think we have the recipe, equipment, grain order hops order and yeast figured out.