Wiezenbock questions

[stratslinger]

I'm thinking about making a Wiezenbock as my next brew, but I've got one major question first:

Is a Wiezenbock an ale or a lager???

In Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil describes it as an ale. The BJCP guidelines make a single reference to ale in its description, but they never explicitly state "this is an ale" or "this is a lager". What's got me confused though is that 1) bock is part of the name, and bocks are obviously lagers, and I found a BYO clone recipe for Aventinus Wiezenbock that was a lager.

Now, I had an Aventinus about a week ago, and nothing about that beer said lager to me - it was cloudy, for one (something BJCP describes as completely appropriate to the style). It was also very estery, and had some very similar flavors to a couple ales I recently fermented with S04 at somewhat higher temps (68-70F - and again, appropriate to style).

So, I'm thinking that the 'bock' name is actually a misnomer and that the BYO 'clone' is just full of it, but I'd like a little confirmation to be sure. Depending on how the weather turns out this weekend, Saturday is either a beach day or a potential brew day, which leaves me today and tomorrow to make the call and run down to the LHBS to get my ingredients...

 

[944play]

Ale. You'd never get the requisite phenols from a lager yeast. It's simply a bigger hefeweizen or dunkelweizen, and quite a nice drop at that.

 

[eelpout]

http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/Weizenbock.html
Used Munich yeast in mine. turned out excellent

5 lbs munich
3.3 wheat LME
3 lbs wheat malt
2 lbs pilsner
.5 lbs special b
.5 choc
1 oz pearle @60
1 oz hallertaur @15
154 deg Munich yeast

 

[bh10]

Like 944 said, its like an "Imperial" hefe or dunkelweizen. Same recipe just amp it up.

 

[stratslinger]

Cool, thanks guys!

 

[ghpeel]

I just explained this distinction to a friend the other day. And I also served a commercial w-bock to some other friends 2 weeks ago for the first time and they loved it.

I'd describe weizenbock as a 6-7% hefe with crystal malt sweetness and body.

I did one with 50/50 wheat/pilsner base, .5lb each flaked wheat & oats, and 2oz of Chocolate Wheat. I wish I had added .5lb of CaraWheat or CaraMunich but the beer was still really good.

 

[Beezy]

Aventinus is awesome. I want to make one. I always thought bock denoted that it was lagered.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Yes, bock's are traditionally lagers. But weizenbock was designed to achieve a bock-like product at ale temperatures and fermentation timeframe.

 

[ghpeel]

I guess maybe "bock" just means "strong" in the case of beer perhaps? Or maybe it means we need to add some ram's piss to our brews.

If you can drink ram's piss, you can drink damn near anything!

 

[Beezy]

I am reading Brewing With Wheat right now. That's how I found out. Really interested in making one now.

 

[944play]

If you'll take a look at the chart on page 188, you'll see that Weihenstephaner Vitus (great beer) and Gutmann Weizenbock (never heard of it) fall well short of the BJCP's arbitrary minimum color of 12 SRM. I think the Style Guidelines need amendment here.

 

[Beezy]

If you'll take a look at the chart on page 188, you'll see that Weihenstephaner Vitus (great beer) and Gutmann Weizenbock (never heard of it) fall well short of the BJCP's arbitrary minimum color of 12 SRM. I think the Style Guidelines need amendment here.

I think they need to redo the guidelines completely soon. It's been a few years.

 

[doctorRobert]

Wheat beer brewed to a “bock” strength.

vitus is an excellent beer. One of my favorites. Use a hefe yeast.

The guidelines are overrated. Most of the worlds best beers don't fit the style guidelines, don't get too caught up with them unless you're competing. They are a great reference however for new styles.

 

[Piratwolf]

In a quote from a good buddy and fellow home-brewer: "Aventinus is Jaws and all other beers are flimsy wooden boats!"

An Aventinus clone is definitely on my to-brew list for 2012.

 

[Beezy]

In a quote from a good buddy and fellow home-brewer: "Aventinus is Jaws and all other beers are flimsy wooden boats!"

An Aventinus clone is definitely on my to-brew list for 2012.

Nice! Is there a recipe about?

 

[markg388]

I brewed Jamil's recipe and it's pretty damn close, I'm way too lazy to google it and post a link though. Good stuff.

 

[stratslinger]

I'm planning to brew up Jamil's, using the all-grain option, this weekend. Only problem I'm seeing is that the grain bill he lists comes up consistently higher in OG than what he lists, so I'm a little concerned. I mean, 17.75lbs of grain for a 5 gallon batch seems a little big, ya know?

BrewTarget, even if I set the brewhouse efficiency to 70%, shows a OG of roughly 1.1 (BCS says this recipe should come in around 1.081). The calculator on BYO.com projects around 1.088 - which is still a little high, but seems more reasonable and I'm not as concerned with the difference.

I'd post the recipe here and see if anyone else can confirm using other tools, but since it's a recipe from a published book, I'm not sure I can... But in general, does a 17.75lb grain bill, considering 10lbs is dark wheat malt, sound excessive for a 5 gallon batch of Wiezenbock?

 

[samc]

Nothing wrong with posting a recipe as it is not protected. It's also all over the internet anyway.

Try using 6 gallons as finished batch size and you will probably get the right numbers.

 

[doctorRobert]

All of Jamil's recipes are for 6 gallons - post boil. You lose some beer to break material and fermentation, as well as equipment loss. I still sometimes don't even get a full 5 gallons into the keg.

I dont think its excessive. I think jamil posts his recipe's using 68 or 70% efficiency. But if you get better extraction, then you need to adjust. If you want to do a 5 gallon recipe, just scale down all the malts.

 

[stratslinger]

Thanks doctorRobert - that makes perfect sense... And now that you say it, I remember exactly that discussion in the intro chapters of the book; recipes designed to leave 6 gallons in the kettle at the end of the boil, and assuming .5 gallons of loss racking to fermenter, and another .5 gallons of loss racking to bottling bucket, keg, secondary, etc...

I remember reading those numbers though and thinking they seemed pretty high - maybe that's telling me something about my process (that I'm putting some wort into the fermenter that's better left behind?)... I'll see what I can pull off with this knowledge in mind.

 

[Frenchy]

My previous understanding was that bock was a lager type as well. However, I recently discovered that it simply means a strong beer.

 

[bh10]

My previous understanding was that bock was a lager type as well. However, I recently discovered that it simply means a strong beer.

Correct.