Why wont this apple juice become apple cider vinegar

[Jokester]

In Oct 2017 I put a live vinegar mother in a gallon of apple juice.
It was in a 70-75 degree house for 2 yrs. It is still too sweet, I can taste the vinegar aspect of it, but still very sweet.

Did I miss a step ? Should I have put yeast first then the bacteria ?

Thanks.
Srinath.

 

[bruce_the_loon]

Hi Srinath,

Vinegar mother converts alcohol to acetic acid, but you need the sugars to be converted to alcohol by a yeast first. You should be able to add the yeast (maybe a champagne yeast since you are targeting a vinegar and want all the sugars fermented) now and let the sugars ferment, then the bacteria from the mother can take over. At some point you'll have to rack off the lees after active fermentation ceases.

I don't know how well the bacteria survive without alcohol to feed on, so you might need to reseed the mother although you might want to give it a month or two after active fermentation ceases to see first.

 

[RPh_Guy]

maybe a champagne yeast since you are targeting a vinegar and want all the sugars fermented

FYI any yeast will work

 

[Jokester]

Yea figured - 1/2 seems to have fermented, I'll put alcotec turbo 24 in it. Supposedly dry fermenting.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[Bobby_M]

First, I'd throw that away immediately. Apple juice that has been sitting around for 2 years can have unhealthy bacteria in there. The vinegar mother is dead. In the next go, add yeast first to ferment to hard cider in about a week, then add to an active mother. Make sure the mother size is large enough for the amount of cider. A very small mother that you'd purchase in a pouch or jar is generally only large enough to make a QUART of vinegar on the first run. Once the mother grows, you can increase the workload. It's important because you want the pH to drop fast enough to protect from unwanted and dangerous bacteria.

 

[Jokester]

I tasted it yesterday, it was like a mix of vinegar and apple juice. I'll put in yeast and see where that goes in a month or 2.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Apple juice that has been sitting around for 2 years can have unhealthy bacteria in there. [...] It's important because you want the pH to drop fast enough to protect from unwanted and dangerous bacteria.

Hmm, the pH is already low enough in apple juice to prevent Clostridium and Staph.
However it's alcohol, not pH, that kills Enterobacteriacea. Therefore it is possible (although unlikely) that toxins may have been produced if there was an Enterobacteriacae contamination, so I would have to agree that's the safest course. It's likely that it would smell or taste unpleasant if pathogens were growing.

The vinegar mother is dead. In the next go, add yeast first to ferment to hard cider in about a week, then add to an active mother. Make sure the mother size is large enough for the amount of cider. A very small mother that you'd purchase in a pouch or jar is generally only large enough to make a QUART of vinegar on the first run. Once the mother grows, you can increase the workload.

Do you have a source of info for AAB pitching rate vs attenuation? I'd be a little surprised if even a small pitch couldn't eventually acetify a whole batch.
How about longevity? Why are they automatically dead?

I'll put alcotec turbo 24 in it.

Turbo yeast does not produce good flavor. Use literally anything else.

 

[Jokester]

Isn't a ferment dry yeast what is needed because bacteria will get it to acetic acid and the yeast flavor anyway is essentially locked away in the sediment ? I have EC1118 and likely some other bakers yeast and nutritional yeast. Could I use those ?
Thanks.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Isn't a ferment dry yeast what is needed

ANY yeast will ferment the cider dry.

the yeast flavor anyway is essentially locked away in the sediment ?

No, yeast produce a variety of byproducts that stay in solution.

I have EC1118 and likely some other bakers yeast

Either one, although the EC-1118 will have a lot better flocculation.

 

[S-Met]

Did you verify that your juice doesn't have any preservatives? Seems odd that after 2 years you wouldn't have had a spontaneous fermentation.

Isn't a ferment dry yeast what is needed because bacteria will get it to acetic acid and the yeast flavor anyway is essentially locked away in the sediment ? I have EC1118 and likely some other bakers yeast and nutritional yeast. Could I use those ?
Thanks.
Srinath.

And any yeast will work. Yes you want dry, but apple juice (fructose) is a simple sugar. As long as it doesn't exceed alcohol tolerance for the yeast, it will ferment dry.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Seems odd that after 2 years you wouldn't have had a spontaneous fermentation.

Yeah I kind of assumed he airlocked it or something.
Very good point.

 

[S-Met]

Yeah I kind of assumed he airlocked it or something.
Very good point.

I'd think that a live mother would have some kind of yeast or other "bugs" to eventually cause fermentation. Unless there are preservatives present.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd think that a live mother would have some kind of yeast or other "bugs" to eventually cause fermentation.

That's an interesting thought. I'm not sure.
Acetic acid is quite toxic to yeast, especially at low pH. I'm not sure how long they survive, particularly at room temp and/or variable storage temperatures.
It could explain why the juice only partially fermented.

I also thought he might have pitched a commercial culture of bacteria, which perhaps wouldn't contain yeast. Probably not I guess.

 

[Jokester]

I suspect the acetic acid already in it is preventing a wild yeast colonization, I will add yeast to it in a significant number along with nutrient. Likely will over run the acetic acid atleast till all there is left is acetic acid.
And this is the last batch of acv I'll make, and the first, but I am better at making alcohol IMHO, so I'll stick with that.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Next time:
Ferment with yeast first, and then add the acetic acid bacteria, and allow it to sit with access to air.
Just follow those 3 easy steps and your batch will be successful. No reason to give up in my opinion.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hmm, the pH is already low enough in apple juice to prevent Clostridium and Staph.
However it's alcohol, not pH, that kills Enterobacteriacea.

Turbo yeast does not produce good flavor. Use literally anything else.

My mistake. I learned about making malt vinegar first and the warnings about getting pH lowered quickly would apply to unfermented wort, not cider or other wines. All the jarred mothers in my store describe stepping up the batch sizes but I suspect it's more about gratification on a shorter timeline. If you make a quart, then half gallon, then gallon, you can at least be enjoying finished product along the way.

Unrelated.. Have you ever tried using turbo yeast in a very controlled temperature environment? I suspect anyone that has had bad flavors from it are suffering from runaway ferment temps due to the monumental pitch rate. I've fermented with turbo at 68F actual wash temp and it no different from a reasonable pitch of DADY with nutrient added.

 

[Jokester]

I actually pitch only about 1 teaspoon in a gallon and about 1 tablespoon in 5 gal. Ofcourse that is getting pitched into anything from 6% ABV upward beer, not a food rich "wort" I still get a good fermentation start where the initial co2 is from the carbonation of the beer but soon enough as it begins to fade the yeast - both the live yeast from the beer as well as the turbo start eating.

I can detect the taste of the turbo yeast as well as EC1118 in my from scratch (apple cider or wine from grapes), but I cant taste it much in the hyper ferments because some of the native yeast also restarts growing in the thing after amg.

Cool.
Srinath.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Have you ever tried using turbo yeast in a very controlled temperature environment? I suspect anyone that has had bad flavors from it are suffering from runaway ferment temps due to the monumental pitch rate.

I haven't personally used it.
You could be right about it being bad just due to poor practices. I would rather recommend a yeast that can handle uncontrolled temps and high pitch rate without throwing off-flavors. I know EC-1118 for example can handle both and conduct a clean fermentation.

 

[bernardsmith]

but I cant taste it much in the hyper ferments because some of the native yeast also restarts growing in the thing after amg.

Cool.
Srinath.

Sorry, have no idea what your abbreviation "amg" might mean, but no indigenous or wild yeast is going to begin fermenting after you have pitched a lab cultured yeast and that lab cultured yeast has had enough time to create an environment that suits it and not any competitor. Not only do the lab cultured yeasts swamp the indigenous yeast simply due to their massive viable numbers but indigenous yeast have not been cultured to adapt to what is for them unbelievably high concentrations of alcohol. What good cider and wine makers often choose to do is the exact opposite of what you are considering and that is they allow indigenous yeast to begin the fermentation for a day or two and then they pitch their lab cultured yeast to dominate and overwhelm the local community of yeast cells and that way they create a wine (or cider) that is far more complex (and unique) than any cider or wine that they might otherwise produce by simply pitching lab cultured yeast...

 

[RPh_Guy]

no idea what your abbreviation "amg" might mean,

He's talking about glucoamylase. For some reason he's taking commercial beer and fermenting the dextrins in it.

By native yeast he's talking about the yeast that fermented the beer the first time around.

You're understandably confused as he's talking about nonsensical techniques for making beer, in a thread about apple cider vinegar, in the kombucha subforum.

 

[bernardsmith]

He's talking about glucoamylase. For some reason he's taking commercial beer and fermenting the dextrins in it.

By native yeast he's talking about the yeast that fermented the beer the first time around.

You're understandably confused as he's talking about nonsensical techniques for making beer, in a thread about apple cider vinegar, in the kombucha subforum.

Now it makes sense... sorta...I think...

 

[Jokester]

AMG = amyloglucodiase. I did not use it in the apple juice, but I am putting it in a store bought beer to ferment it dry or brut territory.

Thanks.
Srinath.

 

[Bobby_M]

I stand by my suggestion to dump the cider and start over. Around here a gallon of cider costs about $7 on the high end. Ferment it with any yeast and pitch in a portion of the mother from your failed batch.