Why RIMS/HERMS when Igloos are so stable?

[Jambro64]

I do BIAB but with an electric element. I will be using a pump to recycle the mash, so sort of like a rims system since the element is at the bottom and the wort will get heated before it gets recycled to the top of the mash. Being able to do different temperature changes, like a protein rest at 113F then up to 152F for mash then 168 for a batch sparge will be easier with a RIMS or in this case a modified RIMS. Looking for a little better brew house efficiency.

 

[mneilson]

I wonder how well it's actually working though. Those don't circulate water with a whole lot of force, it seems like it would have a hard time getting heat evenly distributed through the entire pot. I suspect it's just maintaining temp locally around the hop spider. I wonder if the mash would work out just the same without it all together. But I am interested in any data if anyone has any.

It doesn't. It mainly holds temps next to the heater, and the impeller does not have enough drive to circulate through the grain. Measure temp away from the circulator, and it will be much lower.

Sent from my Pixel using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Yooper]

I used a cooler for a long time, but a 10 gallon igloo just isn't big enough to do the size batches I want, and I wanted stainless instead of plastic anyway. My old igloo warped and cracked a little (probably from hot water), but my stainless never will.

 

[sillbeer]

I didn't use my Rubbermaid coolers enough for them to warp or crack but I did have capacity issues and that was my main reason for going with stainless. Plus it was fun after I started learning about it more. I recently sold my High Gravity controller and am in the process of building my own panel right now. I was considering buying a panel but I had an interest in learning about electrical and thought it would be fun to learn along the way.

 

[mabrungard]

Why include RIMS or HERMS? To ensure hitting my mashing temp and to enable stepping the mash temp with ease. With 4500w, I can easily move my wort temp 25F to 30F instantly in my 10 gal system.

I used to use a 120v (1500w) RIMS, but it doesn't have the power to instantly step the wort temp to the degree that 4500w can. The 120v RIMS is fine for maintaining mash temp, but less helpful for temp steps. With a properly adjusted PID, you won't have scorching problems either.

The other very helpful thing with running RIMS/HERMS, is that you don't stir the mash and can further reduce oxygen contact for your wort. I do LODO and have noted significant improvement to malt flavor and character in my continental lagers. With the incredibly low threshold for oxidizing wort, stirring a mash is almost guaranteed to prevent a brewer from achieving a LODO result.

 

[schematix]

I overchill my strike water by 3-4 degrees and then pump through my RIMS with the controller set to strike temp. I'm never off by more than 1 degree now. Either way it's just a matter then of turning on the loop and before you know it its spot on.

240V definitely better performance wise (4X power). But if my goal was to keep it super simple (assuming garage or patio brewing without a 240V outlet) i'd still do a 120V RIMS over no RIMS.

 

[logdrum]

Why include RIMS or HERMS? To ensure hitting my mashing temp and to enable stepping the mash temp with ease. With 4500w, I can easily move my wort temp 25F to 30F instantly in my 10 gal system.

I used to use a 120v (1500w) RIMS, but it doesn't have the power to instantly step the wort temp to the degree that 4500w can. The 120v RIMS is fine for maintaining mash temp, but less helpful for temp steps. With a properly adjusted PID, you won't have scorching problems either.

The other very helpful thing with running RIMS/HERMS, is that you don't stir the mash and can further reduce oxygen contact for your wort. I do LODO and have noted significant improvement to malt flavor and character in my continental lagers. With the incredibly low threshold for oxidizing wort, stirring a mash is almost guaranteed to prevent a brewer from achieving a LODO result.

What are you using to chill the wort?

 

[mabrungard]

I chill with a typical plate chiller. I gave up on immersion chillers a long time ago.

 

[mongoose33]

I chill with a typical plate chiller. I gave up on immersion chillers a long time ago.

Why, Martin? Was this before chillers like the Hydra came out, or for some other reason? I shied away from a plate chiller given issues of clogging and cleaning--not an issue for you?

 

[sillbeer]

I had a plate chiller for awhile and decided to pick up a counter flow chiller. I had concerns with possible contamination but never had issues. The only problem I had was it got clogged one time.

 

[mabrungard]

Why, Martin? Was this before chillers like the Hydra came out, or for some other reason? I shied away from a plate chiller given issues of clogging and cleaning--not an issue for you?

To get reasonable performance out of an immersion chiller, either the wort or chiller needs to be moved. Since that occurred 'pre-pump' for me, I had to constantly move the chiller around in the kettle.

I do have an excellent wort inlet system in my kettle that prevents any large particles into the wort stream. My wort is virtually crystal clear entering and existing the plate chiller. That significantly reduces my worry level regarding contamination.

 

[thekraken]

I know we're getting off topic here but I'm curious to know what your wort filtration system is, @mabrungard.

 

[Genuine]

I use a mini e Herms system with my cooler to keep my mash temp the same. Great little set up that I believe produces better and clearer wort

Edit - Added a recent brew day with it:

 

[mabrungard]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hHN2kTCsLd4pVCLfmJuwXL-yjC2GIzhl
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13SRoPh0tmvCCsB93NaASUW0lP5e8PYe4

Here are views of the wort intake. I use a ring dam to keep most trub in the center of the kettle and away from the peripheral intake zone.

 

[schematix]

I've been using my Blichmann Therminator exclusively to chill my pre-boiled water down to strike temps (low oxygen brewing). It hasn't seen wort in about 2 years / 2 dozen batches. It performs amazingly for that task.... like 16G from boil to ~150F in ~2 minutes even with summer tap water temps.

But it STILL blows out pieces of hops, trub and grain after every use.

I have a hunch the reason it became so prone to clogging is that it was already partially obstructed and no amount of hot PBW recirculation was going to get it going again. Still not sure the best way to get it spotless inside.

 

[mongoose33]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hHN2kTCsLd4pVCLfmJuwXL-yjC2GIzhl
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13SRoPh0tmvCCsB93NaASUW0lP5e8PYe4

Here are views of the wort intake. I use a ring dam to keep most trub in the center of the kettle and away from the peripheral intake zone.

Very interesting, Martin. I'm intrigued by that. Do you have any more pics showing your setup? I've done whirlpooling and it's not been all that effective at collecting the trub in the middle of the kettle; I'd love to have a way isolate it even more, and a hop dam and perhaps that peripheral pickup idea might be the ticket.

 

[youngdh]

I wonder how well it's actually working though. Those don't circulate water with a whole lot of force, it seems like it would have a hard time getting heat evenly distributed through the entire pot. I suspect it's just maintaining temp locally around the hop spider. I wonder if the mash would work out just the same without it all together. But I am interested in any data if anyone has any.

I had similar concerns when I first thought of the idea. It does appear to move the fluid enough to get outside the spider as I’ve measured the temps outside the spider and they are within a degree or less of the sous vide’s set temp. I also do the occasional stir “just because” ;-). I’ll also add I’m getting about 75% efficiency into the kettle with a 45 min mash with BIAB where before I was less than 70% for 60 min mash with the same grain crush. This is for a 6G mash volume. I doubt this would work for much larger volumes. The sous video stick also does a mean filet mignon and tuna steak (what it was really designed for ;-) ).

 

[mabrungard]

I don't think I have any more to show you. However, I'm surprised that you're not having success with whirlpooling. Possibly your kettle has too small a diameter compared to its volume. I'm typically boiling 6 gal of wort and I use a large diameter, 15 gal stock pot. That provides me with enough interior area to collect the trub cone.

Another trick that one of my old clubmates showed me, was to use some whole hops in your hopping schedule. Those hops help bulk-up the trub cone and help keep it from 'flowing'.

 

[schematix]

Are you sure you're cone just isn't spreading out as you drain?

I've had luck with a few things...
1. Using PVPP at about 15 minutes to go really tightens up the trub.
2. Rotate dip tube to horizontal position when draining - adjust as needed to stay above the trub.
3. Rack to fermenter slowly. Drawing too fast will pull the cone towards the dip tube.
4. Allow the kettle to settle for at least 30 minutes after whirlpool is stopped.

 

[logdrum]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hHN2kTCsLd4pVCLfmJuwXL-yjC2GIzhl
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13SRoPh0tmvCCsB93NaASUW0lP5e8PYe4

Here are views of the wort intake. I use a ring dam to keep most trub in the center of the kettle and away from the peripheral intake zone.

Do you subscribe to the copper mitigation LODO principle? I'm contemplating switching to a stainless immersion chiller as an attempt to lessen any potential DO and wonder if this would make any difference.

 

[mabrungard]

The potential for copper and iron to participate in Fenton reactions is real and I do have concerns with using my copper equipment. However, copper does have a beneficial reaction with sulfides in the wort and beer. Using mostly stainless equipment is wise, but you do need to have a small bit of copper in contact with your wort at some point.

One thought I've had is to coat my copper parts with polyurethane varnish. There are food-safe versions and should be stable in the heat range we work in. At present, I'm relying on the copper oxide coating to reduce copper transfer to wort. Don't shine your copper!!

 

[tofuguy]

The potential for copper and iron to participate in Fenton reactions is real and I do have concerns with using my copper equipment. However, copper does have a beneficial reaction with sulfides in the wort and beer. Using mostly stainless equipment is wise, but you do need to have a small bit of copper in contact with your wort at some point.

One thought I've had is to coat my copper parts with polyurethane varnish. There are food-safe versions and should be stable in the heat range we work in. At present, I'm relying on the copper oxide coating to reduce copper transfer to wort. Don't shine your copper!!

This is why I stick with a copper immersion wort chiller. I keep seeing people bringing this topic up and figure immersion chillers have been around forever and good beer has been made. And with only making 5 gallon batches and I live in the North, it's a great source for cooling while getting this possible benefit.

 

[robcj]

Howdy,
This may be a dumb question, but I'm curious why people would go through the effort of setting up a RIMS or a HERMS system when 10 gallon igloo coolers hold temperature during the mash so well? I understand them for a setup that only has steel kettles, or something larger than 10 gallons, but what would the benefit be in setting up one if you already are planning to use super insulating igloo/rubbermaid coolers?

After 5 years of BIAB brewing, I added a 120V RIMS to maintain mash temperatures. I was convinced that recirculation and constant mash temperatures were what I needed to take my beer to the next level. It made sense to add a plate chiller too. And it worked. My beer got better and better over two years.

Then last summer I wanted to crank out a beer on my deck but the GFCI outlet there wasn't working. So I went old school and didn't use my pump, RIMS, or plate chiller. The beer still turned out great! And setup, cleanup and teardown were much faster. Next brew I decided to purposefully forego all the gear again in favor of a shorter brew day.

A year later and I haven't used it since. I'm loving the return to simplicity and shorter brew days. (In fact I was inspired to find more ways to save time and I've standardized on a 30 minute mash and 30 minute boil.)

I'm not even using a cooler--just my kettle. I aim a few degrees higher, it cools a few degrees and it all averages out. If it cools too much I turn the burner on for 30 second.

My beer is better than ever. Maybe recipe design, ingredients, crush and overall process consistency are more important than mash temperature control?

 

[Smellyglove]

It's up to the brewer to make beer with the equipment he wants. A guy brewing his first beer on a bells and whistles-system will not be able to "out-brew" a seasoned brewer with experience and knowledge, which brews in a bag.

It's just how one wants to brew. I built my latest system with one thing in mind, eliminate as much "work" as possible with consistent results, because I find it fun to brew the same beers over and over again and adjusting. I can leave the mash and I know it does the same thing if I brew the same beer twice, so thats one variable I don't have to think about.

I bet I could bang out some decent beers on a BIAB kettle but I don't want to lift any grainbag, checking temps manually, step mash by adding water or fire the burner and and have to watch it as the temp rises etc. I just want to leave it and do something else if I'd want, then come back to mash-out.

That's why I have a HERMS even though a simple no whistles system can probably bang out the same quality of beer, but through a different process.

 

[robcj]

It's just how one wants to brew.

100% agreed--one of the reasons I love this hobby. There's a million different ways to make the same thing: beer!

For me, adding equipment like RIMS to my system reduced some of the time required to monitor the process but it added setup, cleanup and teardown time.

But if I had enough dedicated indoor space where I could permanently setup an electric brewery with an effective clean-in-place process, I'd be all over it.

 

[LarMoeCur]

100% agreed--one of the reasons I love this hobby. There's a million different ways to make the same thing: beer!

For me, adding equipment like RIMS to my system reduced some of the time required to monitor the process but it added setup, cleanup and teardown time.

But if I had enough dedicated indoor space where I could permanently setup an electric brewery with an effective clean-in-place process, I'd be all over it.

I couldn’t agree more. Knowing your system is key to brewing great beers. I brewed with a cooler and a keggle for 10 plus years. I made some award winning beers. I knew exactly how much heat I lost per hour. I could hit my strike temps perfectly. And when I built my new system I had to tweak my recipes and processes slightly to achieve the same beers.

Would you believe me if I told you there is less setup, cleanup, and teardown with an EHERMS/RIMS system? There may be more equipment but with hot water and pumps. It takes way less time and almost no elbow grease. This is why I have to continually warn my brewing friends well really my brewing friend’s wives/girl friends about not letting them coming over to brew beer on my system.

 

[Blazinlow86]

It's up to the brewer to make beer with the equipment he wants. A guy brewing his first beer on a bells and whistles-system will not be able to "out-brew" a seasoned brewer with experience and knowledge, which brews in a bag.

It's just how one wants to brew. I built my latest system with one thing in mind, eliminate as much "work" as possible with consistent results, because I find it fun to brew the same beers over and over again and adjusting. I can leave the mash and I know it does the same thing if I brew the same beer twice, so thats one variable I don't have to think about.

I bet I could bang out some decent beers on a BIAB kettle but I don't want to lift any grainbag, checking temps manually, step mash by adding water or fire the burner and and have to watch it as the temp rises etc. I just want to leave it and do something else if I'd want, then come back to mash-out.

That's why I have a HERMS even though a simple no whistles system can probably bang out the same quality of beer, but through a different process.

Well said. i use the typical electric 3 vessel herms for the same reasons. pretty sure i could make just as good beer without it too. cheers