Why Not to Pitch On Your Yeast Cake

[dstar26t]

Hey, I thought that 'use the percent viability slider to dictate your starting yeast count' was my idea! Been doing that for a while now.

I just figured that out a few weeks ago so you beat me to it
It was driving me nuts that I didn't have enough slurry from a 6 gallon batch of Munich Dunkel to re-pitch into a 10 gallon batch of Dopplebock. After playing with the calculator for hours, it made sense that it could tell me a starter size for a slurry size in a backwards kind of way. I was nervous about the volume of yeast that starter made but after reading the OP saying it can be 1/4 the volume of harvested and settled yeast, I felt better. Looks like it's time for a microscope and hemocytometer for some real answers.

 

[EO74]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yea??? I curently wash yeast but im ready to rack off a cream ale and brew a pale ale,i've never racked onto a cake but was seriously thinking of trying it since brew day finally lined up with keg day.After reading 8,000 posts on this thead should i dump half the slurry????Will the trub F*** with the pale ale?????Should i wash the yeast and brew some other day?????Like i said i usually was my yeast do a starter, im not lazy but this is the first time i can keg and rack onto a cake the same day.After spending 5 hours reading this thead i think ill just quit brewing!!! JK any thoughts anyone

 

[scottlindner]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yea??? I curently wash yeast but im ready to rack off a cream ale and brew a pale ale,i've never racked onto a cake but was seriously thinking of trying it since brew day finally lined up with keg day.After reading 8,000 posts on this thead should i dump half the slurry????Will the trub F*** with the pale ale?????Should i wash the yeast and brew some other day?????Like i said i usually was my yeast do a starter, im not lazy but this is the first time i can keg and rack onto a cake the same day.After spending 5 hours reading this thead i think ill just quit brewing!!! JK any thoughts anyone

It sounds like the real question is if you should wait to brew. That's really up to you. If you are concerned about some of the details in this thread then you should wash and brew later. If you believe you can brew an awesome brew by using your active yeast cake, then brew today. There's no harm in scooping out some of the cake since you'll still have plenty of yeasties working for you and you don't risk over pitching.

If you don't care about the risks of less than perfect brew but still is very tasty, I'd love to see what happens if you use the yeast cake but take some extra out. It sounds like you normally wash your yeast which I believe means you normally make starters as well? I'm curious how you'll enjoy a brew made using an entirely different process for you. That is, if you're willing.

Either way, you'll have beer. Enjoy the brew day!

Scott

 

[EO74]

Scott the real info i was looking for before i was sucked into reading this crazy thead was 1 is the excess gunk detrimental to a fresh brew 2 im not lazy but racking onto an active cake seems like no brainer minus the pitching rate THING. A carboy with the beer just racked off in my eyes is really sanitery considering it was just full of alchol&C02 even if it looks like an elephant just took a dump in it!! I read the whole thead and found no info on yeast crud affecting newer wort.I cant scoop out excess yeast because i use a glass carboy but i can swirl it and dump some would u recomend this scott ??

 

[scottlindner]

Scott the real info i was looking for before i was sucked into reading this crazy thead was 1 is the excess gunk detrimental to a fresh brew 2 im not lazy but racking onto an active cake seems like no brainer minus the pitching rate THING. A carboy with the beer just racked off in my eyes is really sanitery considering it was just full of alchol&C02 even if it looks like an elephant just took a dump in it!! I read the whole thead and found no info on yeast crud affecting newer wort.I cant scoop out excess yeast because i use a glass carboy but i can swirl it and dump some would u recomend this scott ??

If I were in your situation, I'd just use the entire cake and not worry about it. I've done it a few times before with the entire cake and haven't ever noticed anything detrimental.

Scott

 

[EO74]

Thats what i figured i've been brewing for about 5 years and never tried it cause i never had a brew day line up like this so i figured id try it i like to experement when i homebrew but i always try to research stuff u probably know what i mean after all my names not Adolphis Bush thanks for the advice ,and when all else fails RDWHAHB its all about the fun of it <at least to me & u>

EO

 

[scottlindner]

Thats what i figured i've been brewing for about 5 years and never tried it cause i never had a brew day line up like this so i figured id try it i like to experement when i homebrew but i always try to research stuff u probably know what i mean after all my names not Adolphis Bush thanks for the advice ,and when all else fails RDWHAHB its all about the fun of it <at least to me & u>

EO

Bingo.....

 

[SC_Ryan]

I have a question about the viability of the yeast in the primary. So we know that the viability of a portion of harvested yeast cake drops at a rate of 25% per seven days while in cold storage. We also know that washed yeast stored the same way keeps better but to an unknown degree.

Let's say your primary fermentation conditions were optimal and your fermentation completed in 4 days. How much if any viability is lost post fermentation while the cake is sitting at the bottom of the primary? I will primary my beers for 1-3 weeks depending on my schedule.

 

[EO74]

I did a st pattys day brew yesterdayi racked a cream ale into a keg , off a notty yeast cake poured edworts haus ale on top and it started bubbling within an hour!!!The cake was 3 weeks old and i've never tried this before,im pumped.I wash yeast all the time and reuse it a couple times before i start off fresh again but if this comes out good i'm gonna pitch on yeast cakes more often!!:rockin:

 

[cheezydemon3]

Yeast viability gone 25% every 7 days? Bullspit.

I had a 3 month old cake, dried and cracked, sprang to life with little effort and produced a great beer.

How do they produce dried yeast without destroying the delicate little dears if they are so fragile?

I love this discussion, but I think the opinions range from completely anal and careful beyond reason, to a little wreckless and careless.

Rather than carelessness or lazyness, I hate to waste the little bastards just to use some new little bastards.

 

[Hermit]

Yeast viability gone 25% every 7 days? Bullspit.

I had a 3 month old cake, dried and cracked, sprang to life with little effort and produced a great beer.

How do they produce dried yeast without destroying the delicate little dears if they are so fragile?

I love this discussion, but I think the opinions range from completely anal and careful beyond reason, to a little wreckless and careless.

Rather than carelessness or lazyness, I hate to waste the little bastards just to use some new little bastards.

I know someone that uses them to spray on his lawn. Think about it.

 

[scottlindner]

I did a st pattys day brew yesterdayi racked a cream ale into a keg , off a notty yeast cake poured edworts haus ale on top and it started bubbling within an hour!!!The cake was 3 weeks old and i've never tried this before,im pumped.I wash yeast all the time and reuse it a couple times before i start off fresh again but if this comes out good i'm gonna pitch on yeast cakes more often!!:rockin:

Two weeks ago I pitched onto an active yeast cake (I scooped a bunch out first) and had activity almost immediately.

I'm glad it worked so well. I'm very curious how you feel about the results when you are ready to try it.

Scott

 

[BigJason]

I just bottled my Wheat Stout that I pitched from a prior batch of Wheat Stout. Tasted exactly the same as the last couple batches of it at bottling time. I pitched into Primary on top of about 1/2 the cake / trub (mini-mash extract recipe), left it for 9 days, until it was done fermenting, then to secondary for ~2 weeks before bottling. What a time/money saver, and not having to worry about washing and recreating a starter... EASY!

 

[masonsjax]

Just another anecdote for the pile:

I recently kegged a beer that was in primary for 5 weeks, no secondary. I planned to discard the yeast, but for some reason didn't get around to it. The carboy sat for nearly 2 weeks at about 64 F.

I realized yesterday that I didn't have a fresh pack (or slurry in the fridge) of S-04 to use for the stout I made yesterday, which is what I wanted, so I just pitched it right onto the old cake. The fermentation is quite healthy, now nearing blow-off.

 

[Praiodan]

I made a huge starter for a dead guy clone and let it ferment out for 2 1/2 weeks. I brewed up an arrogant bastard clone and dumped it right onto the massive yeast cake the dead guy clone left behind. I must say that it's been my best brew thus far!

 

[masonsjax]

While we're on the pitching rate subject, I have a question. On the liquid yeast packaging, it calls them "pitchable", yet general wisdom recommends always using a starter with liquid yeast. On the other hand, when talking about rehydrating dry yeast, people usually say to follow the directions on the package because "who knows better than they do?".

It's my understanding that when you feed yeast, the first thing they do is multiply. So the question is: does pitching the calculated proper amount of yeast result in overpitching because of the multiplication phase? How is pitching a a pack of yeast to beer different from pitching to a starter? Is this the reason the manufacturers call them pitchable?

 

[cheezydemon3]

I know someone that uses them to spray on his lawn. Think about it.

Not to be a smartass, but if I spray Stone ruination on my lawn, does that make it worthless?

Not sure I understand your point.

 

[BigJason]

Not to be a smartass, but if I spray Stone ruination on my lawn, does that make it worthless?

Not sure I understand your point.

My guess is that he drinks the beer and yeasties and then sprays the lawn...

 

[cheezydemon3]

Hee Hee!!

That sounds right, but doesn't really make sense with his original point.

 

[mojotele]

So the question is: does pitching the calculated proper amount of yeast result in overpitching because of the multiplication phase?

My understanding is that no, that won't happen. How I understand it is that yeast will multiply until one of two things happen:

1. They run out of resources necessary to multiply.
2. They've reached a certain density depending on the environment.

In regards to #2, I think of it as animals reproducing only as much as their ecosystem can sustain. It's like they get to a certain point and say, "Whoah, wait a sec. If we keep multiplying they'll just be too many of us! Let's stop." I'm certain there's a much more fancy way of saying it, but that's what I've gotten from all my research.

So if you use the calculated proper amount of yeast, it should still be less than the cell count of reason #2. If you've given them enough oxygen and nutrients, they'll multiply until they hit that cell count which would not be considered overpitching.

Likewise, if you use less than the calculated proper amount of yeast then you'll need more oxygen and nutrients to get them to multiply up to that amount. At some point, it becomes difficult to supply them with enough of the necessary stuff.

How is pitching a a pack of yeast to beer different from pitching to a starter? Is this the reason the manufacturers call them pitchable?

I think the difference is that if you use a starter it is much more likely that they'll stop multiplying due to reason #2 rather than reason #1. The latter could result in an amount of yeast that is too low. I think they can call the packs pitchable because it will work given certain conditions. It may not work optimally in all conditions, though.

 

[EO74]

I cant wait to try it Scott,its been done fermenting for about 2 days.Pitching on a cake rules ,i've only had one batch ferment quicker and that was a dry yeast packet???

 

[carp]

There have been quite a few comments on this thread that express great enthusiasm over the quickness and robustness of fermentation when pitching on the cake. This seems to be to be a very one-dimensional view of fermentation quality. You could probably also ferment at 80 and get fast violent fermentation as well, but we all know that this would not be a good thing. These comments seem to me to also miss the point of the original post, which is that overpitching does not provide an optimum and repeatable result.

I have pitched on the cake a number of times, had good results from it, and I love how low effort it is. I'm certainly not arguing that anyone should or should not pitch on the cake. But I can't help but point out the superficiality of these arguments in favor of pitching on the cake just because its fast.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

There have been quite a few comments on this thread that express great enthusiasm over the quickness and robustness of fermentation when pitching on the cake. This seems to be to be a very one-dimensional view of fermentation quality. You could probably also ferment at 80 and get fast violent fermentation as well, but we all know that this would not be a good thing. These comments seem to me to also miss the point of the original post, which is that overpitching does not provide an optimum and repeatable result.

I have pitched on the cake a number of times, had good results from it, and I love how low effort it is. I'm certainly not arguing that anyone should or should not pitch on the cake. But I can't help but point out the superficiality of these arguments in favor of pitching on the cake just because its fast.

Well Said....

 

[Beerrific]

There have been quite a few comments on this thread that express great enthusiasm over the quickness and robustness of fermentation when pitching on the cake. This seems to be to be a very one-dimensional view of fermentation quality. You could probably also ferment at 80 and get fast violent fermentation as well, but we all know that this would not be a good thing. These comments seem to me to also miss the point of the original post, which is that overpitching does not provide an optimum and repeatable result.

I have pitched on the cake a number of times, had good results from it, and I love how low effort it is. I'm certainly not arguing that anyone should or should not pitch on the cake. But I can't help but point out the superficiality of these arguments in favor of pitching on the cake just because its fast.

Excellent point. A fast ferment is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Excellent point. A fast ferment is not necessarily a good thing.

I also agree with carp and also don't think lag time (to a point) is an indicator of good fermentation.

 

[mojotele]

I agree with carp as well.

I think what everyone should take away from this thread is that pitching on a yeast cake is similar to not taking gravity readings. You may end up with good beer, but, if you don't, troubleshooting becomes difficult because you have another unknown variable. You will also have trouble repeating a good beer for the same reason. That's the real lesson here, not whether pitching on a yeast cake works or not (it clearly does).

 

[cheezydemon3]

I agree with carp as well.

I think what everyone should take away from this thread is that pitching on a yeast cake is similar to not taking gravity readings. You may end up with good beer, but, if you don't, troubleshooting becomes difficult because you have another unknown variable. You will also have trouble repeating a good beer for the same reason. That's the real lesson here, not whether pitching on a yeast cake works or not (it clearly does).

I agree with carp as well. Slow and long fermentation is better, and can also be accomplished by pitching on a 1/2 yeast cake under controlled temps. Fortunately for me, my basement floor keeps my fermenters at about 65F.

In addition to using 1/2 yeast cakes, I do NOT take hydrometer readings.

I primary for 2-3 months, secondary if I need the yeast but don't have time to bottle. If not I have primaried for 4 months before.

 

[1971hemicuda]

Lots of great stuff here! Thanx guys for all the great stuff!

So, reading this post, along with the graphical post on yeast washing, has convinced me...its time to start harvesting yeast. For a few reason...money, being 1 and I do know that yeast can take on characteristics of the beer its brewered in. So, reusing yeast can definitely give your beer unique flavors typical of your beer.

So

In my opinion, brewing a starter from washed, stored yeast is no different than brewing a starter from any other package - step it up until you arrive at a sufficient quantity of slurry to inoculate your wort according to your calculations (well, to be safe, a little more).

You dig?

Bob

If I dont have a microscope, how do I know when my yeast starter is ready? Whether it be from a new vial of yeast, or a jar of harvested yeast. I've been doing starters now for about 3 months and found my results to be much better...but, as Bob said (I believe) if its worth doing, its worth doing right...at least that's how me, and half my pay check, feel about brewing! haha

However, I can tell you that i'm the most hard core of all my friends that brew. And a lot of them make great beer...but do they make the same beer again. No way! They never have the same OG and FG...sometimes they get stuck fermentation, or too much fermentation lag. I think the whole point of this thread isn't really to tell you what you are, and AREN'T doing wrong...its to try and point us in the right direction of making GREAT, REPRODUCIBLE beer every time. You can make great tasting beer without harvesting, but can you make it again? This will just help you take 1 step closer to remaking that great beer you just made last week, or last month. At least, that's the theory, right??

 

[conpewter]

I agree with carp as well.

I think what everyone should take away from this thread is that pitching on a yeast cake is similar to not taking gravity readings. You may end up with good beer, but, if you don't, troubleshooting becomes difficult because you have another unknown variable. You will also have trouble repeating a good beer for the same reason. That's the real lesson here, not whether pitching on a yeast cake works or not (it clearly does).

I think that just pitching onto a cake because it is there and easy may be something like not taking hydrometer readings, but when I brew a beer specifically so I can pitch a large barleywine or RIS on that beer's cake I don't think I'm going to have trouble repeating that whole process, nor is it for laziness that I do it, but I need the high cell count to chew through all the fermentables in the big beers, and get a good attenuation.

 

[remilard]

I think that just pitching onto a cake because it is there and easy may be something like not taking hydrometer readings, but when I brew a beer specifically so I can pitch a large barleywine or RIS on that beer's cake I don't think I'm going to have trouble repeating that whole process, nor is it for laziness that I do it, but I need the high cell count to chew through all the fermentables in the big beers, and get a good attenuation.

Well depending on the beer you brewed, you don't need that high of a cell count.

If you can brew a 1.030 ish beer (60/-, ordinary bitter, light american lager) that would probably be close to the yeasted needed for a 1.1+ beer (barleywine, RIS, huge dopplebock or baltic porter).

If I were repitching from an APA to a barleywine, I would not pitch all of the yeast.