Why is the anvil foundry the only electric brewer where you have to rake every 15 minutes?

[edd101]

The anvil foundry the manual states that it's very important that that every 15 minutes you rake the top third of the grains. I don't love doing this as it's kind of akward for one person to shut off the pump, remove the lid , remove the hot preforation disk , and make sure you don't lower the recirculation tube otherwise you get wort everywhere etc.

So I've been watching videos on other electric all and in one brewers, and I noticed they are all as simple as turning on recirculation and waiting 60 minutes. Is there a particular reason why anvil has you stir every 15 minutes? The design of all these electric one pot brewers seem very similar.

I assume there's a small efficiency gain by stiring that the other companies don't bother with?

 

[day_trippr]

If it's anything like a conventional recirculating mash, over time a grayish deposit of fines builds up atop the bed, and presumably a pathological case could cause channeling towards the side walls because the bed resists flow. That raking or slicing thing goes way back in time to solve that problem...

Cheers!

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

over time a grayish deposit of fines builds up atop the bed

This is actually beta-glucan, a non-starch polysaccharide that is often mistaken for protein, old timers used to call it gum. It's pretty common to see in a constant recirculation system.

You can eliminate it with beta-glucanase. It's cheap , keeps the mash bed flowing with only one stir and improves extraction efficiency. It has no effect on the beer flavor, mouthfeel or head retention. Add 2-2.5 grams for every 10 pounds of malt. This works so well I don't need rice hulls even with a mash with 30% rice. It's a game changer when mashing rye or oats. The mash flow is often hinder by beta-glucan from the malt.

Maltsters will often reduce it to very small amounts during the malting process, but not all gets reduced. Malt has a small amount of naturally occuring beta-glucanase, but it denatures @ 125F. The enzyme you buy for brewing is derived from bacteria and denatures @ 165F. If you have a recirculating mash system, you really should consider it for every beer.

https://labelpeelers.com/beer-makin...eA6HMLMjgJr0u0JP6kbmqEuKJUu0_iprLEzG3Y00N6cgi

 

[jdauria]

Foundry user myself, I never stir after the initial mash in unless for some reason the temps spike higher than they should be and get and never have had an issue hitting gravity targets.

 

[kevin58]

I have never raked using either my AF 10.5 or 6.5 but then I use the recirculation pump on both. What I have found that is annoying is that because of the design of the AF you need to lift the malt pipe a couple of times during the mash otherwise the water that is between the malt pipe and the outer kettle wall does not get pulled into the recirculation flow. That volume of water, which is fairly significant, otherwise will not contact the grain. As a result that volume of (nearly clear) water would be introduced into your wort when you pulled the malt pipe at the end of the mash. It's like adding top up water and dilutes your wort causing your gravity to take a hit. By lifting the malt pipe three times during the mash I boost my mash efficiency by 8 points on average. I don't know if this issue still exists after Anvil redesigned the malt pipe to use the Blichmann button style false bottom.

 

[jdauria]

I have never raked using either my AF 10.5 or 6.5 but then I use the recirculation pump on both. What I have found that is annoying is that because of the design of the AF you need to lift the malt pipe a couple of times during the mash otherwise the water that is between the malt pipe and the outer kettle wall does not get pulled into the recirculation flow. That volume of water, which is fairly significant, otherwise will not contact the grain. As a result that volume of (nearly clear) water would be introduced into your wort when you pulled the malt pipe at the end of the mash. It's like adding top up water and dilutes your wort causing your gravity to take a hit. By lifting the malt pipe three times during the mash I boost my mash efficiency by 8 points on average. I don't know if this issue still exists after Anvil redesigned the malt pipe to use the Blichmann button style false bottom.

Yeah I have the redesigned malt pipe on the the 6.5 and it's still an issue. I lift the basket right after mash in and then usually half way through the mash to mix the water somewhat.

 

[edd101]

I actually increased my efficiency a lot by increasing the pump flow (which they warn you not to do). I suspect this works because it fills up the malt pipe and lowers the amount of water on the side. Of course you have to be carefull not to overflow and it probably wouldn't work on larger grainbills.

Though I'm going to try not stiring, I hate that.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's not a system difference, just a difference in operational opinion of the manual authors.

 

[kevin58]

I actually increased my efficiency a lot by increasing the pump flow (which they warn you not to do). I suspect this works because it fills up the malt pipe and lowers the amount of water on the side. Of course you have to be carefull not to overflow and it probably wouldn't work on larger grainbills.

Though I'm going to try not stiring, I hate that.

No, doing so will not lower the amount of water on the side. The reason for the still water in between the malt pipe and the kettle wall has to do with fluid dynamics and the geometry of the malt pipe. Those dynamics are not changed by increasing the recirc flow. If anything you are going to risk "channeling" in your grain bed by recirculating too fast.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have never raked using either my AF 10.5 or 6.5 but then I use the recirculation pump on both. What I have found that is annoying is that because of the design of the AF you need to lift the malt pipe a couple of times during the mash otherwise the water that is between the malt pipe and the outer kettle wall does not get pulled into the recirculation flow. That volume of water, which is fairly significant, otherwise will not contact the grain. As a result that volume of (nearly clear) water would be introduced into your wort when you pulled the malt pipe at the end of the mash. It's like adding top up water and dilutes your wort causing your gravity to take a hit. By lifting the malt pipe three times during the mash I boost my mash efficiency by 8 points on average. I don't know if this issue still exists after Anvil redesigned the malt pipe to use the Blichmann button style false bottom.

I've been urging single vessel system users to consider/avoid fluid stagnation. If you have a system that is heated automatically by having a controller measuring a single probe, you need to make sure it's measuring approximately the average temperature of the system. That means you have to make sure the system is actively mixing to a reasonable level of homogeneity (and to be extra clear, the mandatory SLOW recirculation through the malt pipe doesn't cut it) . Almost all AIO and even so called premium single vessel systems have major problems with temp stability across all zones of the system.

The solution (definitive, not speculative) is to split the recirculation flow between feeding the top of the grain bed and simultaneously directing a majority of the pump flow to stirring all the non-thick mash areas where liquid resides. In malt pipe or basket systems, that area is mostly between the basket and sidewall of the boiler and underneath. In bag based systems, it's the area under the bag.

In some systems, it rather simple because the boilers already have a whirlpool return port that does this wonderfully as long as you put a tee in your pump output path. In AIO systems, it's a bit of a bang up retrofit. The SSbrewtech SVBS is the only AIO that has this feature standard.

The Foundry is one of the more tricky retrofits due to the double wall boiler design, but I've been able to do it by treating it like a cooler and making a larger hole in the outer skin to get a whirlpooling bulkhead on the inner wall. The less invasive way is to drop a stainless whirlpooling "cane" down between the malt pipe and boiler.

 

[edd101]

No, doing so will not lower the amount of water on the side. The reason for the still water in between the malt pipe and the kettle wall has to do with fluid dynamics and the geometry of the malt pipe. Those dynamics are not changed by increasing the recirc flow. If anything you are going to risk "channeling" in your grain bed by recirculating too fast.

It 100% does. The liquid level in the malt pipe rises. The liquid level outside the malt pipe goes does down. The reason being the pump is adding liquid to the malt pipe faster than liquid can flow out the bottom.

Whether the pros outweigh the cons is another question though haha. I agree everything I've read has indicated it's a terrible idea. But it has annecdoately increased my efficiency from 65-70 to 80.

 

[Bobby_M]

It 100% does. The liquid level in the malt pipe rises. The liquid level outside the malt pipe goes does down. The reason being the pump is adding liquid to the malt pipe faster than liquid can flow out the bottom.

Whether the pros outweigh the cons is another question though haha. I agree everything I've read has indicated it's a terrible idea. But it has annecdoately increased my efficiency from 65-70 to 80.

The level does drop, but it doesn't really encourage the remaining liquid in that area to actively mix into the system unless you had the flow so out of balance that the liquid was very close to a scorching partial dry fire. I don't recommend flying close to the sun.

 

[edd101]

The level does drop, but it doesn't really encourage the remaining liquid in that area to actively mix into the system unless you had the flow so out of balance that the liquid was very close to a scorching partial dry fire. I don't recommend flying close to the sun.

I see- so the liquid on the sides of the malt pipe is not the issue in efficiency. Only the liquid at the very bottom near the element? It's a bit counter intuitive as you would think the top of the sides would be getting the least interaction with the grains.

Asking because I was curious what would happen if you hooked up the pump intake to a floating dip tube on the side. (probably couldn't be engineered as a real solution on the foundry for multiple reasons), but was just curious if in theory if that would help effeciency in this type of system.

 

[doug293cz]

I see- so the liquid on the sides of the malt pipe is not the issue in efficiency. Only the liquid at the very bottom near the element? It's a bit counter intuitive as you would think the top of the sides would be getting the least interaction with the grains.

Asking because I was curious what would happen if you hooked up the pump intake to a floating dip tube on the side. (probably couldn't be engineered as a real solution on the foundry for multiple reasons), but was just curious if in theory if that would help effeciency in this type of system.

No, it is primarily the liquid between the malt pipe and vessel side that doesn't take part in the fluid flow, or diffusion of extract into the wort. The wort under the FB does participate in the recirc flow.

Interesting idea, and would probably work, but I think it is simpler to split the recirc return flow so that some of it whirlpools the wort in the vertical gap between the pipe and vessel wall.

Brew on

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

I have a mash and boil, so different system, and I have no top plate. I stir every 10 Min or so until the last 15 min. Then I just want to filter the wort. In my opinion the better the recirculation the better the efficiency and the better the recirculation the more consistent the mash temp, and stirring help with that. If you don’t stir no issue but you may see a couple point drop in efficiency, if you stir a little gain. I would be surprised if the difference is 5% I would expect 1 -3%. For that I would do the process you enjoy the most. For me it gives me something to do while mashing. If it’s a pain for you I would do the same beer with stirring and without, then you will know what the difference is, and figure out if it’s worth it for you for not. Given what you describe it is probably not worth the effort. You may want to question the benefit of the top plate. Some systems have them, some don’t. I don’t think they are needed. As long as you have some water over your grains.