Why is my efficiency so low?

[bairdo]

For fly sparging, you definitely want to do a mash out. That means adding some near boiling water to your mashtun after the mash and before the sparge, to bring the entire grainbed up to 168 degrees. Then sparge with 168-170 degree water.

Thanks. I was thinking I probably should be.. approx how much boiling water would I need to bring up 22L of mash (at approx 151) to 168?

 

[bairdo]

I have began a mashout with batch sparging for two reasons. The first is in the pursuit of higher efficiency. The second is that being a stovetop brewer getting the wort to start boiling is a pain to say the least. Doing a mashout allows some water to get good and hot on the stove while the grain is mashing, increasing the wort temp that comes out of the tun. Hotter wort from tun = less time until boiling.

The first time I did this I ended up with a small problem. I was mashing "thin" 2.5 L/KG. Sorry for the metric. But "thin" is the important part. When I added the mashout water I had so much in the tun I barely got a sparge at all. In my situation a slightly thicker mash (2.0 L/KG) + mashout works best, then I still get a good sparge opportunity.

Metric suits me (everything is metric in NZ)

 

[Zepth]

Thanks. I was thinking I probably should be.. approx how much boiling water would I need to bring up 22L of mash (at approx 151) to 168?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

They've got other handy calculators including but not limited to: IBUs and efficiency.

 

[eric19312]

Good luck. I think my favorite piece of equipment is my refractometer and my second favorite is my calibrated site glass, third is my digital thermometer. Right after that is software to record measurements and interpret what they mean on the fly (I like Beer Alchemy).

Knowing where you are is a big part of figuring out where you are going. With a preboil gravity and volume I can determine almost exactly what my OG and volume will be into the fermenter. If I need more sugar I sparge some more before starting the boil, if that means I get more volume than I expected to get the sugar I need, then I tack some time onto the boil.

 

[bairdo]

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

They've got other handy calculators including but not limited to: IBUs and efficiency.

Perfect - should have known. Thanks

 

[uatuba]

So...pretty much as I stated originally. Except that I think it's important to raise the grain temperature to 170 instead of 168. I do 171 on the side of caution, without worrying about tannins.


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[bairdo]

For fly sparging, you definitely want to do a mash out. That means adding some near boiling water to your mashtun after the mash and before the sparge, to bring the entire grainbed up to 168 degrees. Then sparge with 168-170 degree water.

So using the brewersfriend calculator it says I'd need 9-10L of boiling (to bring up 20L of 66deg mash with 6.8kg grain to 76deg (169F). And just to confirm I'm supposed to do that before I start lautering?

 

[jessup]

also pH of your mash water. use the pH 5.2 to get the perfect mash water pH. maybe it's something as simple as that!!

 

[Yooper]

So using the brewersfriend calculator it says I'd need 9-10L of boiling (to bring up 20L of 66deg mash with 6.8kg grain to 76deg (169F). And just to confirm I'm supposed to do that before I start lautering?

Yes. You want to denature the enzymes, as it takes like an hour to sparge and you want to preserve your malt profile from the mash.

 

[bairdo]

Yes. You want to denature the enzymes, as it takes like an hour to sparge and you want to preserve your malt profile from the mash.

Understood. Will report back after next brew. Thanks a lot!

 

[byrone]

Always have a little more boiling water on hand than what the calculator says. Also don't pour it all in at once because you may overshoot the mashout temperature. Pour about half in and then take a temp measurement and add the rest of the boiling water as needed.

 

[bairdo]

also pH of your mash water. use the pH 5.2 to get the perfect mash water pH. maybe it's something as simple as that!!

North Shore West Zone summary (2012 water report)
pH unit
Minimum 7.50
Median 8.15
Average 8.14
Maximum 8.80

 

[CA_Mouse]

Thanks for the help - I will definitely be improving my fly sparge process. One thing at a time though so will try that first - i suspect it's the biggest culprit.

Very interesting about the grain mill though.. (can you recommend a mill?) (I'd like to mill my own - the only reason I'm not already is I've spent a fair amount without much to drink for it)

I bought a Barley Crusher. While not the top of the line, it has served me well in the 14 months I've had it. I leave it set at .039 (the default) and run my grain through twice. My efficiency increased from 72% to 78% when I first bought it and to 82% to 85% since I've started double milling.

 

[CA_Mouse]

also pH of your mash water. use the pH 5.2 to get the perfect mash water pH. maybe it's something as simple as that!!

While this can help, it isn't the be-all-end-all to getting your water right. Just using 5.2 doesn't help fix knowledge of why you want to use it. At this stage I think the OP needs to work on process first. We can learn to run before learning to walk, we just need to be aware that we are going to get hurt faster and more frequently!

 

[bairdo]

While this can help, it isn't the be-all-end-all to getting your water right. Just using 5.2 doesn't help fix knowledge of why you want to use it. At this stage I think the OP needs to work on process first. We can learn to run before learning to walk, we just need to be aware that we are going to get hurt faster and more frequently!

Agreed. Might look at mash ph later.. much later. A guy I know doesn't bother adjusting for ph and makes delicious beer with 80+% efficiency - but he has more years experience than I've done brews. He is keen on starter cultures though.

 

[airdog_47]

I consistently hit 80% + mash efficency. It mainly has to do with 3 things. Grain Crush.. Mash Temp.. Lauter / Sparge temp... I use basic fly sparging. Reasonable sparge time roughly 45 min to 1 hr. I never check ph. It also helps to use fresh grains and ingredients.

 

[bairdo]

So next brew is this coming saturday..

Will report back on..
Thermostat accuracy
Mashout temp (infusion method)
Sparge water temp
Sparge flow/timing.
Preboil gravity
And of course mash efficiency.

I contacted my LHBS and asked about crush size. Their response was they run the mill till the grain crush looks correct, and that they use the same mill for all their own brewing and constantly hit over 80. They have a custom built mill that does 1-2 ton a month. They are a very reputable shop in NZ (multiple winner of best home brew shop in nz) and super helpful so I will leave it at that. They suggested I drop in and chat about my techniques/equipment which I will do when I pickup ingredients later this week.

BUT... I couldn't help myself and ordered a MM2.. So this coming brew I will use the LHBS crush and the following will be the MM2.

 

[bairdo]

Went ok-ish..

Attempted to make an APA from the 'brewing classic styles' book.

Checked if mashtun thermometer accuracy is good. It is.

Things that didn't go so well.
- Being organised
- LHBS may have missed a grain - either that or they didn't write it on the bag.
- Because only had 6kg of grain the mash level only just touched the temp probe - which meant I had no idea what the conversion temp range was - because the liquid right on top cooled down so much.
- There was 2-3 litres left in the kettle after transferring to the fermenter - need to utilise that - 6 bottles of beer!
- Was unsure of the strike temp as was using less mash water than previously - used 18L. Ended up having to give it a bit of heat after doughing in bring it up to 66.
- Mash conversion % is still crap 65% (brewhouse efficiency). Wondering if grain bed maybe wasn't thick enough - channeling issue perhaps.

Things that I thought that went ok.
- The fly sparge - in that the temp (79deg) of the sparge water was good and the flow was good - took 30mins ish
- The chilling to yeast range went well (easily chilled to 20deg). Was even able to speed up the flow a bit.

Things I chose not to do.
- Mash out (maybe next time)

Things I forgot to do
- Measure the PH of the mash - got some ph paper.

Things to do next time.
- Be organised
- Batch sparge.
- Utilize the boiler dead space (3L)
- Measure mash ph
- Consider a sparge arm that lightly sprinkles the mash - wondering if the current one is causing channeling.

Other things
- Got a carbon filter for the water
- Used Koppafloc (protein coagulant) and going on the sample in the fridge the stuff seems to works well.

Next brew - EPIC Pale ale clone.

 

[MindenMan]

I keep reading sparge, sparge, sparge. I must be missing something as I see your lauter step not being mentioned. How long, and are you holding temp from start to finish? My efficiency improved when I lengthened my lauter time.
If I had (for example) collected enough sparge water, I wouldn't even check to see if there was any sugar left in the grain. Big surprise! there was almost a gallon of 1.030 wort left to collect. That in itself raised my O.G.'s in basically every recipe I made from that point on. Not all had some sugar left in grain, and come to think of it those were the batches that came from the LHBS here in town, and I have no idea what his mill is set at, but he sells a lot of grain w/o complaint. I am not going to blame his grain, as it very well could have me that day... The other HBS I go to appears to use a finer crush, but as to efficiency I can't say. My personal experience does show greater O.G.'s are derived from a finer crush.

 

[bairdo]

I keep reading sparge, sparge, sparge. I must be missing something as I see your lauter step not being mentioned. How long, and are you holding temp from start to finish? My efficiency improved when I lengthened my lauter time.
If I had (for example) collected enough sparge water, I wouldn't even check to see if there was any sugar left in the grain. Big surprise! there was almost a gallon of 1.030 wort left to collect. That in itself raised my O.G.'s in basically every recipe I made from that point on. Not all had some sugar left in grain, and come to think of it those were the batches that came from the LHBS here in town, and I have no idea what his mill is set at, but he sells a lot of grain w/o complaint. I am not going to blame his grain, as it very well could have me that day... The other HBS I go to appears to use a finer crush, but as to efficiency I can't say. My personal experience does show greater O.G.'s are derived from a finer crush.

Not sure I don't understand this.. "How long, and are you holding temp from start to finish?"

After mash was done (70 mins starting at 66-67 deg c) I vorlaufed by recirculating slowly with a pump for say 3 mins. Then begun the lauter - I introduce the 79deg c sparge water to top of the mash (onto a small plate) at the same flow as I transfer into the kettle. 26.5L in the kettle took a bit over 30mins.

 

[MindenMan]

Even though it is a bit more work, I vorlauf until the wort is clear, ( which is something I have read to do) and all the small stuff is now locked into the grain bed. Okay, there is a a tiny bit of particulate, but is basically clear.
I have no idea how long it takes me, as I recirculate it by hand. At that point, I slowly drain my tun into my BK. I had never checked the temperature of the wort after the sparge has started, until the other day and surprise!,180 * F water was now 146* F after the cooled off grain was once again covered in water. Doesn't sound much like sparging temperature does it? So, I changed my method. I know by experience I am going to need about 7 gallons in the BK to start, so I pour 3 gallons of boiling water onto my grain bed, give a small stir, cover and wait ten minutes before I slowly drain my grain bed at the same rate it is being refilled. I have found a 2" head of water helps to prevent stuck sparges. This step usually takes 30 min., or so. I now pour 1 gallon of boiling water on the grain bed, give it a good stir, wait another 10 or so minutes, recirculate 3 or 4 times and then check the gravity again. If the temperature corrected gravity gives a reading of greater than 1.015, I will throw another gallon of water and check gravity again. I realize my methods are crude and time consuming, but I still make beer I am proud of.

 

[bairdo]

Even though it is a bit more work, I vorlauf until the wort is clear, ( which is something I have read to do) and all the small stuff is now locked into the grain bed. Okay, there is a a tiny bit of particulate, but is basically clear.
I have no idea how long it takes me, as I recirculate it by hand. At that point, I slowly drain my tun into my BK. I had never checked the temperature of the wort after the sparge has started, until the other day and surprise!,180 * F water was now 146* F after the cooled off grain was once again covered in water. Doesn't sound much like sparging temperature does it? So, I changed my method. I know by experience I am going to need about 7 gallons in the BK to start, so I pour 3 gallons of boiling water onto my grain bed, give a small stir, cover and wait ten minutes before I slowly drain my grain bed at the same rate it is being refilled. I have found a 2" head of water helps to prevent stuck sparges. This step usually takes 30 min., or so. I now pour 1 gallon of boiling water on the grain bed, give it a good stir, wait another 10 or so minutes, recirculate 3 or 4 times and then check the gravity again. If the temperature corrected gravity gives a reading of greater than 1.015, I will throw another gallon of water and check gravity again. I realize my methods are crude and time consuming, but I still make beer I am proud of.

With fly sparging the grain bed is always submerged so its not going to cool off. I checked the gravity several times during the lauter and I stopped at .010 and double checked the runnings after a few more mins. One trick for young players is make sure you close at least one valve when you switch the pump off otherwise some of your prized wort gets sucked right back into the mashtun - don't ask how I know that..

 

[bairdo]

Here's a lautering/fly sparging action shot from the last brew day.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/lautering-63043.html

 

[MindenMan]

Okay, you win. Doesn't mean I'm not jealous though... BTW, nice set up!
Are prices as high where you live, like Australia has when it comes to buying a six pack? If I may ask, what dies grain cost a Kilo?

 

[bairdo]

Okay, you win. Doesn't mean I'm not jealous though... BTW, nice set up!
Are prices as high where you live, like Australia has when it comes to buying a six pack? If I may ask, what dies grain cost a Kilo?

www.brewshop.co.nz will give you an idea. Mostly we get a dozen in nz, ranges from say $14-24nz (usually theres a reasonable lager on special for $20ish). Craft beer is $6+ for a 500ml bottle, most are $7-9.. probably the best deal for something crafty is a 'Founders' pale ale or ipa 6pack (6x330ml) for $14nz.

 

[Heavywalker]

Does 5 liters of volume below the false bottom on a 23L batch seem like a lot to anyone else?

 

[bairdo]

Does 5 liters of volume below the false bottom on a 23L batch seem like a lot to anyone else?

And it used to be 9.5L!!


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[bairdo]

Right so I now have a monster mill 2, and a refractometer, and have verified my thermometers are accurate. Was hoping to brew this coming weekend but due to not getting the hopper made it will likely be next weekend. But when I do brew I will report back on my results.. hopefully improved results. I have brewed since this thread started and slowed my sparge down (a lot) and increased sparge temp, but ran into some other issues (strike temp issues as batch was smaller), also used the same LHBS crush which I now suspect to be the main culprit. Anyway.. watch this space

 

[bairdo]

Here is the first test of my spanking MM2 SS - set to the factory default of .045" (gap set by me because the unit came apart during shipping)

The crush looks pretty good to me..

 

[CA_Mouse]

Here is the first test of my spanking MM2 SS - set to the factory default of .045" (gap set by me because the unit came apart during shipping)

The crush looks pretty good to me..

Looks decent. I think you may be better served if you clamp down a little more (I run mine at .039). I have also started pre-wetting my grains the night before or first thing in the morning of my brewday and double mill. I get a great crush with nearly intact hulls. This increased my efficiency by 3%. I think the lowest efficiency I've gotten lately was when using 40% white wheat, efficiency was 79%. My baseline has been 83% to 85% for barley only mashes. I am brewing tomorrow or Wednesday and will post a pic of my crush (both first pass and second pass).