Why Electric? Confused

[onthekeg]

And to expound on Kal's previous point, the electricity is as near 100% efficiency as is possible. The propane is roughly 25% efficient so you need 3X the amount to mimic the same efficiency of elec.

 

[shelly_belly]

Electric may be cheaper to run, but I could buy 20 years worth of propane for what the Electric Brewery Control Panel kit cost, and 30 years worth for the assembled version. The power cord alone equates to a years supply of propane.

I am, however, also going electric, as the summers here are too hot for brewing outside. I'll be doing it in the manner of Jkarp.

 

[cwi]

Have you E-Brewing types settled on what element type is the most suitable?

I researched it, and there seems be a lot of confusion over SS, Incoloy, the black stuff (but not Incoloy). Seems the SS ones use unsuitable metal for the base, and so do some other types. The base corrodes and/or rusts requiring sacrificial anodes or potting. Most Incoloy is essentially stainless, but they particular flavor used for the element is usually not listed. I am considering using it just for the HLT/HEX, but I suppose there could still be issues with corrosion even with plain water. Still not sold on it for the BK, just too much going on what with whirlpooling, chilling, cleaning.

 

[cwi]

And to expound on Kal's previous point, the electricity is as near 100% efficiency as is possible. The propane is roughly 25% efficient so you need 3X the amount to mimic the same efficiency of elec.

Natural gas is ~4x cheaper than electricity per BTU, so it is a wash. The inefficiency of the heat transfer is built into energy prices according to how it is most commonly used. Why do you think NG water heaters and furnaces are preferred over electric?

If you use propane, and especially BBQ tanks, you are paying a premium for small volume sales, or for not having access to NG. It is only 2x cheaper than electricity, but still just as inefficient at heating. If you use a heat shield/shroud combined with an gas burner, the heat waste is more tolerable, but still more expensive than electricity. However, the 15X gas vs. elec number is dubious. I remember one guy was claiming his energy cost using electricity was $0.25/batch????

I have brewed 18+ gallon batches with much less than one BBQ tank, and smaller batches with more appropriately sized pots would be more efficient than that. The efficiency of gas heat starts decreasing exponentially as the size of the kettle goes up, for typical homebrew setups that is. Above 25 gallons, some kind of jacket/shroud or going to steam power starts to make economic sense, hence why large breweries use gas fired steam boilers for everything.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Kal,
I'm impressed and learned a lot thank you.
I guess we need to add electric brewing to our list of options on our stands.

 

[kal]

And to expound on Kal's previous point, the electricity is as near 100% efficiency as is possible. The propane is roughly 25% efficient so you need 3X the amount to mimic the same efficiency of elec.

That's a good point. It's included in the 10-15x ratio however.

It's certainly a more efficient use of energy. A 5500W electric heating element produces about 20,000 BTUs of heat and will outperform a 80,000 BTU propane burner as close to 100% of the energy goes into the liquid.

Kal

 

[cwi]

That's a good point. It's included in the 10-15x ratio however.

It's certainly a more efficient use of energy. A 5500W electric heating element produces about 20,000 BTUs of heat and will outperform a 80,000 BTU propane burner as close to 100% of the energy goes into the liquid.

Kal

It would be interesting to see your calcs and some empirical numbers.

I don't doubt that electricity is cheaper than NG and LP for brewing uses, but the 15X factor seems optimistic. As a sanity check, a gas water heater doesn't cost 15X as much as an electric water heater. Last I checked gas water heaters were cheaper to use or about the same. A gas water heater is more efficient than a gas fired brew kettle, but not 15X more efficient.

The numbers I found have the $/(your favorite energy unit) of electricity being 4X that of NG, and 2X that of LP. Assuming that, it is a simple transfer efficiency estimate for a burner based system. The 25% efficiency mentioned earlier is a common estimate. To get to even 10X would mean a 5% efficiency for LP, and ~2% for NG.

The electric elements have the advantage of a constant transfer efficiency, so you can max out the heat input for a quicker time to boil without any efficiency decrease. The burner's efficiency degrades drastically as the amount of injected heat goes up. As a result, gas burner users rarely put 80K BTU/hr through the burner because the flames go 6" up the side of the pot.

My empirical numbers from memory are ~1/2 BBQ tank for an ~18 gal batch. I am brewing ~18 gal again tomorrow, and I will keep better tabs on LP usage. Kal mentioned $1-2/batch, but no batch size. Even if that was for a 20 gal batch, my LP usage was ~5X the price of electric at ~$1/20g batch.

 

[kal]

Some numbers:

Let's assume $0.10 per kWh which is the national average in the US.
Assume 12 gallons of produced wort (post boil) which gives me 10 gallons in the kegs. This is 14 gallons pre-boil. (You mention 18 gallons but I don't know if that means pre-boil, post-boil, or what you want to get into the kegs).

Assume a 5500W (5.5 kW) element used as follows which is how I brew:

(a) 0.75 hours x 5.5kW to heat strike water = 4.125 kWh

(b) 1 hours x 5.5kW x 10% to maintain mash temp = 0.55 kWh (10% is a complete guess but is likely high - the "element on" light doesn't come on very often when mashing - it flashes on and off quickly maybe once every 30-60 seconds. It's probably closer to 1%)

(c) 0.4 hours x 5.5kW to get mash and sparge water to mash out temp of ~170F = 2.2 kWh

(during sparging element is off)

(d) 0.5 hours x 5.5kW to get wort to boiling = 2.75 kWh

(e) 1 hour x 5.5kW x 0.85 to boil wort for 1 hour = 4.675 kWh (The element is on for 85% of the time during the boil which is likely higher than most will need)

Total kWh = 14.3. So assuming $0.10/kWh we have $1.43.
(Pumps and other equipment not counted as they're negligible and are used on gas setups as well).

Takes about 1/2 of BBQ tank of propane to do the same thing from what people tell me, average price for refill is around $20 for me all taxes in.

So that's a 10:1.43 ratio or about 7:1. Lower than the 10-15:1 ratio previously mentioned. You can probably get it closer to 10:1 if you don't go as pessimistic with usage as I did (like heating during mashing, etc).

The 10-15 to 1 is a rough estimate. In some cases it may be as low as 5:1, in some cases 20:1. (I don't know). The important thing is that it really does seem to be roughly an order of magnitude difference.

This is in line with what most electric brewers tell me too including those that have switched from gas to electric.

As a sanity check, a gas water heater doesn't cost 15X as much as an electric water heater.

Not a relevant comparison.

Gas water heaters don't lose most of the heat to atmosphere like gas brewers. The efficient gas hot water tank in my house has the burner inside (sealed and insulated) and the exhaust pipe up the middle has a criss-cross piece of metal up the flue to ensure that heated exhaust doesn't escape too fast so that it has a chance to heat the water inside. If a gas brewer put a flue up the middle of his kettle with an exhaust flow restrictor like this, and encased & insulated burner below the whole kettle assembly all around (including insulating the kettle itself), and fired heat a low rate, then they'd do much better in terms of gas usage.

The other problem is that gas water heaters don't need go much above ~140F. They gently heat the water (fire at a low rate) because that's all that's needed. You're not trying to maintain a vigorous boil wit the lid off with a hot water tank. It's enclosed. Most gas brewers crank up the burner and 70-80% of the heat is lost to atmosphere. This is most certainly a large reason why the electric vs gas price difference is so big because of how you mentioned that an electric element is 100% in the wort or water. If there was a way to get 100% of the gas produced heat into the wort/water then the price would likely be much closer between the two. The problem is there's no (easy) way to do that with gas and also maintain a vigorous boil.

Kal

 

[RumRiverBrewer]

I'm torn between simplifying my brew days and just going out and buying some good craft brew at the store.... I like this hobby because I can brew the beer I like and have a stake in claiming the success in the final product. That's why I grow hops, grind grains, mash, mix, bottle, etc... It's hands-on. I'm always looking for ways to increase the efficiency of my brew days but if I find myself one day working with a computer controlled electric brewery, maybe it'd be easier to just go to the store and get a 6-pack instead/...

 

[cwi]

Total kWh = 14.3. So assuming $0.10/kWh we have $1.43.
(Pumps and other equipment not counted as they're negligible and are used on gas setups as well).

Takes about 1/2 of BBQ tank of propane to do the same thing from what people tell me, average price for refill is around $20 for me all taxes in.
(You mention 18 gallons but I don't know if that means pre-boil, post-boil, or what you want to get into the kegs).

So that's a 13.98:1 ratio.

10:1.43 != 13.98:1 (more like 7:1)
I think you used a full tank at $20, instead of 1/2 at $10 for you calc. Even using your $0.10/kWh which is a little low, and $20 for a fill which is a little high, it is ~7:1.

I was talking 18 gal, and actually a bit more, to the fermenter. That was with ~1/2 tank. Using those numbers would get it down below 5X. I will see how much I use tomorrow to get a more precise usage number. Also, using natural gas those numbers would be roughly cut in half to ~3X. Those numbers for LP and NG fit better with the theoretical numbers I came up with.

This is in line with what most electric brewers tell me too including those that have switched from gas to electric.

I wasn't questioning the electric usage numbers, except for this guy claiming $0.25. ~$2 sounds about right for a 10 gal batch. It was just the multiple didn't seem to be right because it would mean ~full tank of LP for a 5 gal batch. The electric usage is fairly easy to compute. LP usage is easy enough to measure, but I haven't found any precise numbers from somebody weighing tanks before/after (I will try to remember to get the bathroom scale out). NG would be more difficult, unless the only thing you run off NG is your rig.

As a sanity check, a gas water heater doesn't cost 15X as much as an electric water heater. Last I checked gas water heaters were cheaper to use or about the same. A gas water heater is more efficient than a gas fired brew kettle, but not 15X more efficient.

Not a relevant comparison.

That is why I said it was just a sanity check, and stated that a gas water heater is more efficient. It is relevant in that regard. Taking away the efficiency of the central flue, and adding in the extra inefficiency of the going to boil, it is still a stretch to get from a dead even playing field at 140F to 15X at boil.

As for the burner on a gas water heater, they are ~40K btu/hr for a 40gal, so it isn't that far off from the max BTUs I put through my burner.

Most gas brewers crank up the burner and 70-80% of the heat is lost to atmosphere. This is most certainly a large reason why the electric:gas price difference is about 10:1 (give or take).

The 70-80% heat loss agrees with my numbers, and gives (conservatively) 5X for LP and 3X for NG. The 10-15X requires 95-98% heat loss. Not that they can't get that high, especially if you overdrive the burner and get a bunch of unburned gas, along with flames up the sides of the pot, which I have done. But to say it is normal for gas brewers to do that would be like saying it is normal for e-brewers to boil a full HLT at max continously and add cold water to get strike and sparge water.

If there was a way to get 100% of the gas produced heat into the wort then the price would likely be much closer. The problem is there's no (easy) way to do that with gas.
Kal

If there was a way, NG would be 4X and LP would be 2X cheaper than electricity. That is why the 15X number didn't make sense. I think 4-10X for LP and 2-5X for NG are more reasonable numbers.

Adding a heat shroud around the kettle could raise the efficiency a good bit, and is something I will be trying for the BK. Most brewers don't care about the cost enough to mess with increasing efficiency of their LP rigs, especially at the 5 gal size. I am dealing with 26 gal pots, so it starts to make some sense to try, especially to decrease the time to reach boil.

I am not ragging on E-Brewing, and want to make an E-HLT and E-HEX. E-brewing has enough advantages even without the cost savings- no filling tanks, no fumes, easier temp control, quicker boils, etc. I just haven't seen enough good info on what element to use that won't have the corrosion/rust issues. The latest I read is the black Incoloy elements are actually SS, and they have the non-rusting/corroding metal at the base as well.

 

[lschiavo]

I'm torn between simplifying my brew days and just going out and buying some good craft brew at the store.... I like this hobby because I can brew the beer I like and have a stake in claiming the success in the final product. That's why I grow hops, grind grains, mash, mix, bottle, etc... It's hands-on. I'm always looking for ways to increase the efficiency of my brew days but if I find myself one day working with a computer controlled electric brewery, maybe it'd be easier to just go to the store and get a 6-pack instead/...

Most of us are here because brewing is our hobby. Some of us enjoy building and automating our breweries as part of the hobby. I don't think you will one day "find yourself" with a fancy brewery if that is not your goal. Electric can be very simple. It's just an option for heating that happens to be relatively easy to automate.

Going to the store for a six pack is far easier than brewing a batch on even the simplest system. We all have the quick and easy option available.

 

[onthekeg]

Why do you think NG water heaters and furnaces are preferred over electric?

If you use propane, and especially BBQ tanks, you are paying a premium for small volume sales, or for not having access to NG. It is only 2x cheaper than electricity, but still just as inefficient at heating. If you use a heat shield/shroud combined with an gas burner, the heat waste is more tolerable, but still more expensive than electricity. However, the 15X gas vs. elec number is dubious. I remember one guy was claiming his energy cost using electricity was $0.25/batch????

I have brewed 18+ gallon batches with much less than one BBQ tank, and smaller batches with more appropriately sized pots would be more efficient than that. The efficiency of gas heat starts decreasing exponentially as the size of the kettle goes up, for typical homebrew setups that is. Above 25 gallons, some kind of jacket/shroud or going to steam power starts to make economic sense, hence why large breweries use gas fired steam boilers for everything.

I agree that NG is cheaper than propane, but not all of us have that option. I live in the country and have to use propane for my furnace. I have the ability to fill my 20lb tanks from the large tank, so I pay about $2/gallon for propane no matter if in the large tank or in the small. My electricity is .09/KWH so it must be one of the cheaper areas in the nation.
The calcs are below, 5.5kw x time operated x elec cost
Mash water = 5.5 x.75 x .09= .37
Sparge Water 5.5 x .75 x .09= .37
To boil 5.5 x .5 x .09 = .165
Boil 5.5 x 1.5 x .09 x .65= .49

Total elec cost= $1.36

The boil is at 65% once reached. These numbers are for 13 gallons in the fermenter.
I too didn't believe that elec was the way to go until I did it. I started with a 5500w element in a keg as a HLT and for about 300 dollars used that for a couple years and I couldn't believe how well it worked. Eventually I started boiling with it as well since I didn't have to babysit the kettle as it came to boiling. It is a little more work to clean out with the element in there, but only takes a few more minutes.

Since then I have also purchased an electric steam kettle and that is just as efficient as the smaller unit in terms of speed and control. Once I get the rig all set up, I will use my keg HLT, a 120 qt cooler and the 40 gal kettle for boiling.

 

[kal]

10:1.43 != 13.98:1 (more like 7:1)
I think you used a full tank at $20, instead of 1/2 at $10 for you calc. Even using your $0.10/kWh which is a little low, and $20 for a fill which is a little high, it is ~7:1.

Good point. I fixed my above post.

I was talking 18 gal, and actually a bit more, to the fermenter. That was with ~1/2 tank. Using those numbers would get it down below 5X. I will see how much I use tomorrow to get a more precise usage number. Also, using natural gas those numbers would be roughly cut in half to ~3X. Those numbers for LP and NG fit better with the theoretical numbers I came up with.

That's pretty good use then. You're in austin so it's warmer (less heat escaping). You may also use insulated kettles? Or possible some shielding around the kettle flame to not lose as much to atmosphere?

I seriously think that if someone paid special attention to limiting the amount of heat lost to atmosphere then the pricing for both ways (gas vs electric) would be more similar. Going NG or with larger propane tanks would help too. You pay a premium on the small BBQ sized tanks.

Most people don't do the extra work so I think about a 10:1 or roughly one order of magnitude is pretty good when you factor in what most people do and take an average over the year in various climates. That's the number I've heard for years now that's typically stated when people want a rough idea.

Thinking about it more now, before when I said 10-15:1 ratio average it's probably more correct to go the other side and say 5-10:1 ratio average. Some brewers may see 15:1 if they switched but I think most would see a 5-10:1 cost reduction.

(Not including buying the electrical stuff of course - the cost of entry for electrical setups will always be higher than gas... you can do a cheap all-grain propane setup with a simple $10 picnic cooler to mash and a $50 turkey fryer to boil.)

I wasn't questioning the electric usage numbers, except for this guy claiming $0.25. ~$2 sounds about right for a 10 gal batch.

Agreed. I don't see how anyone could brew any sized batch with only $0.25 in electricity. (Unless they supplement with solar panels?)

I just haven't seen enough good info on what element to use that won't have the corrosion/rust issues. The latest I read is the black Incoloy elements are actually SS, and they have the non-rusting/corroding metal at the base as well.

Do you have hard water? I have soft water and haven't had any issues. I hear that hard water users have more issues. That said, I have a couple of magnesium anodes on their way to me so that I can update my site with information on how to avoid rust for those who tend to brew with harder water (as it seems to affect them more). If you don't want to wait for detailed pics/instructions, see here. I'll be installing one in my HLT using the same weldless method I use for everything else. I haven't seen issues myself but others have so it's definitely real. This fix has seemed to work well for others so I figured I might as well document it step by step.

Kal

 

[cwi]

I agree that NG is cheaper than propane, but not all of us have that option. I live in the country and have to use propane for my furnace. I have the ability to fill my 20lb tanks from the large tank, so I pay about $2/gallon for propane no matter if in the large tank or in the small. My electricity is .09/KWH so it must be one of the cheaper areas in the nation.

I said basically the same thing about LP and NG access. NG is 1/2 the cost of LP, but you have to live where a gas line is. A 20LB tank fill for you would only be ~$8. Whatever number you come up with can be converted by $LP = $NG*2. This is based on a rough cost/energy between them.
The question at hand is whether LP is 15X the energy price/batch when using electricity.

The calcs are below, 5.5kw x time operated x elec cost
Mash water = 5.5 x.75 x .09= .37
Sparge Water 5.5 x .75 x .09= .37
To boil 5.5 x .5 x .09 = .165
Boil 5.5 x 1.5 x .09 x .65= .49

Total elec cost= $1.36

Do you have your LP usage per batch?

The boil is at 65% once reached. These numbers are for 13 gallons in the fermenter.
I too didn't believe that elec was the way to go until I did it. I started with a 5500w element in a keg as a HLT and for about 300 dollars used that for a couple years and I couldn't believe how well it worked. Eventually I started boiling with it as well since I didn't have to babysit the kettle as it came to boiling. It is a little more work to clean out with the element in there, but only takes a few more minutes.

I am going down the same route, and will make and E-HLT first. I don't understand how you don't have to babysit the kettle until boil. The first boil is where it seems to boil over easiest. Going off temp seems unreliable. Is there a trick?

Since then I have also purchased an electric steam kettle and that is just as efficient as the smaller unit in terms of speed and control. Once I get the rig all set up, I will use my keg HLT, a 120 qt cooler and the 40 gal kettle for boiling.

A similar sized NG fired steam jacketed kettle will be cheaper to run than an electric. An LP version should be similar or a bit cheaper than electric. You won't find many, if any, breweries using an electric steam generator. The gas steam generators are much more efficient than a brew pot. Some restaurant style steam kettles use electric for the ease of no venting, which is an advantage for inside home use as well.

 

[howabouttheiris]

I think the gas/electric comparison in the original post is a bit challenged.

On a stove, you deliver heat to the outside of a pot. The difference in gas and electric only apply in that setting.

In most cases, in electric brewing, you deliver electric heat directly into the wort. There is far less loss.

My 5g batch cost is just under a $1.

 

[shortyjacobs]

I am going down the same route, and will make and E-HLT first. I don't understand how you don't have to babysit the kettle until boil. The first boil is where it seems to boil over easiest. Going off temp seems unreliable. Is there a trick?

If you have a PID running your element up to boil you can set a high temp alarm to beep at you when the kettle hits, say, 200 or 205. Then you can get back by your brewery before the foam hits the floor.

 

[cwi]

I think the gas/electric comparison in the original post is a bit challenged.

On a stove, you deliver heat to the outside of a pot. The difference in gas and electric only apply in that setting.

In most cases, in electric brewing, you deliver electric heat directly into the wort. There is far less loss.

My 5g batch cost is just under a $1.

???
So you think the gas/electric cost ratio is more than 15/1?

All of the theoretical calcs given for electric assumed 100% transfer efficiency, and the gas at ~25%. Theoretical electric usage will be almost identical to actual usage, as long as the '%-on times' are accurate. Gas estimates are more of a WAG heavily dependent on the rig and environment.

The electric usage estimate used was the same as yours- ~$2/10 gal to your ~$1/5 gal.

I think if you re-read the posts carefully you will understand how the numbers were arrived at. Cost per BTU are NG=2*LP=4*Elec. Assuming the same realized BTU input for all, all that is left is the (in)efficiency LP and NG.

 

[onthekeg]

CWI, I don't really have an actual amount of propane used per batch of beer as I don't accurately weigh the container before and after fill out of my large tank. I didn't switch due to cost, I did for the speed and ease of the elec system, as well as brewing indoors. My Sq-10 and jet burner were nortoriously slow and the jet burner would rust terribly so I had to constantly take it apart and wire brush it. They were always inside, but rusted from humidity in the summer.

 

[cwi]

If you have a PID running your element up to boil you can set a high temp alarm to beep at you when the kettle hits, say, 200 or 205. Then you can get back by your brewery before the foam hits the floor.

That makes sense. I couldn't figure out a way to do it with just temp, but sometimes there are non-obvious solutions. Although I think I would also make the set point 200-205, instead of just relying on the alarm while max heat is still being applied.

I was trying to help out a non-engineer type in another forum who was trying to PLC a rig, and was convinced he could automate boil (and boil-off rate) just with temp. I warned him of his folly, explained it thoroughly, but to no avail.

 

[kal]

I do this sometimes when I'm busy doing other things (in and out of the brewery). I'm easily distracted and lose track of time.

Instead of running the Boil Kettle PID in manual mode at 100%, I set it to auto mode at a temp of 208F and turn the alarm (also set to 208F). It then heats up to this (but not over) and sounds the alarm. I then switch over to manual at 100% and watch/wait for foam and stir to avoid a boilover.

I know I'm going to jinx myself by saying this, but I have yet to have a boilover.

kal

 

[cwi]

CWI, I don't really have an actual amount of propane used per batch of beer as I don't accurately weigh the container before and after fill out of my large tank. I didn't switch due to cost, I did for the speed and ease of the elec system, as well as brewing indoors. My Sq-10 and jet burner were nortoriously slow and the jet burner would rust terribly so I had to constantly take it apart and wire brush it. They were always inside, but rusted from humidity in the summer.

I never worry about the rust on outside of the burners, but have had some rust internally enough to clog the holes. The metal used for casting those is highly variable, so some are prone to serious flaking and tumor like growths.

That steam kettle you got is the way to go for large batches. I hope they don't become the rage before I step up to one. The competition/prices on ebay for tri-clamp and other lab gear suitable for brewing has increased dramatically, and the same would be sure to happen for used restaurant gear.

 

[cwi]

I'm easily distracted

kal

Is that why you have so many shiny, sparkly, beepy, and blinky things on your rig- to keep you focused and entertained?

 

[kal]

Yup! Like a moth to flame...

Kal

 

[onthekeg]

I never worry about the rust on outside of the burners, but have had some rust internally enough to clog the holes. The metal used for casting those is highly variable, so some are prone to serious flaking and tumor like growths.

That steam kettle you got is the way to go for large batches. I hope they don't become the rage before I step up to one. The competition/prices on ebay for tri-clamp and other lab gear suitable for brewing has increased dramatically, and the same would be sure to happen for used restaurant gear.

It was internal rusting and clogging that would cause it to burn dirty all the time, especially when it was throttled back. I was at a crossroads where I needed a new burner or just jump in electric and brew inside in the cold weather.

Yes the steam kettle is quick to get to temp, and I don't have to worry about scorching wort as it is a giant double boiler in essence. I haven't got it all lined out yet, but it has been pretty positive thus far. They are out there, just know where to look. I bought mine out of a school that closed and merged with another.

 

[cwi]

Forgot to post results from brew day. No exact measurement, since it was a bit a cluster breaking in a friend's new brew rig.

It looks like around, but no more than, 2/3 tank for 18-19 gallons to the fermenter. There was a lot of waste dealing with new banjo burners in a new stand. I see why using booster blocks between the frame and kettle is what some of the more well known tuners are advocating. The standard brew rig is a horrible design regarding energy efficiency. I had always questioned the design and wondered about all the heat blocking due to the frame sealing off the flame area. Who says dreams don't come true. The portable banjos used before were much more efficient than a standard rig.

This was also doing a fly sparge with mash-out, so at least 10 extra gallons were heated to ~170F vs. a batch sparge.

It should be easy enough to modify the standard brew stand for better breathing and heat transfer, and easily get to 1/2 tank or less per ~18 gallons. I hear using the smaller size banjo for the BK works better than the 14" since there is less flame bloom up the sides at high heat.

Still, a lot of work and futzing about to accommodate using gas.

 

[gitapaynts]

In reply to the first post, the Brew Magic does actually use an electric element to maintain the mash temperature as a RIMS set up. Rather than the wort being pumped through a coil in the HLT, it goes through a tube with the heating element in it. They use a dinky element that runs off 120v so they also have gas to get the thing up to temp and then also for boiling and heating strike liquor.

I finished a rig this summer and decided to do both the 5500w driven HLT per Kal, but also a natural gas hurricane burner under the HLT and BK. I crank everything up at start and it takes 20-30 minutes to get over 20 gallons (13 in HLT and recirculating ~7-10g in BK) to mash in temps. Gas is all shut off then and Mash recirc'd through HLT controlled by element and PID. I then go back to gas for boiling.

I also live in Atlanta and don't worry much about the weather. I brew in a garage or right in front of it depending on rain. I love the speed and power from the natural gas, and dialing in the hurricane burners from a simmer to a raging boil is no problem.

Probably over kill, but an answer to having to decide on either/or...

 

[castermmt]

Did anybody mention these electric systems with their precise temperature controls are reporting mash efficiencies in the low to mid 90% range, which will reduce your grain bill. It's should be part of the cost analysis. Very safe to use, its like one of those Ron Popeil commercials "Set it, and forget it!"

I love my Kal modified clone! Castermmt

theeElectricbrewery.com

 

[billtzk]

This is a great thread. Very educational. I've learned a lot about the reasons why people go electric and the pros and cons compared to NG and LP.

My rig is a 10 gallon NG single tier, Brutus style. I brew under a covered porch out back, rain or shine, and since I live in Texas, it rarely gets cold enough in the winter to stop me. The 110 degree days in the summer are another matter. I take a pass on those days, even with the shaded porch. Working around the hot flames and boiling liquids when it's already 110 ambient is no fun.

I don't give any consideration to the cost of the NG as it doesn't amount to much, but I'd welcome the greater control over my brewing that electric would make possible. I'd convert to electric if the equipment costs weren't so high. I may ease into it at some point, perhaps starting with the HLT. For sure if I didn't have NG or if I was brewing much larger batches (20 gallon), I'd choose electric over propane just for the convenience of not having to worry about having sufficient LP on hand or having bottles filled.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Just got done having this conversation with the GF. This topic has come up before and I am sure it will come up again. I am an electrician by trade and could easily build an electric system, but choose not to, for a few reasons. One, I am cold -blooded by nature and actually prefer to be outside even in winter. I could be outside all day on the coldest day of the year and come inside and warm up the GF. She will never quite understand that......

Two, electric builds are not cheap. They are cheaper to run, but much more expensive to build. And the reverse is true for propane.

Three, electric builds are stationary. I really enjoy going to brewdays with the local club, or just to a friend's house or whatever. If they don't have the electric capabilities to feed my system, I am SOL. As it is, I can load my gear in my truck or on a trailer and go. There is an outdoor brew that I have been meaning to attend that takes place on a frozen lake about an hour from me. No way could I do that with an electric rig- there is no portable generator made that can handle that. Now I know there are some folks that have a second rig for such things, well bully for them. I don't have the money or space for two rigs- that is just silly. So I choose to go with propane. It is my choice, and I have given my reasons. Others have their reasons for electric, and it is all good. Have a wonderful day all............

 

[lschiavo]

there is no portable generator made that can handle that.

This might do the trick



It is a little pricey. A $20k brew accessory might be tough to explain to the wife. Plus it would probably fall through the ice