why are kit instructions so horrible ?

[yeasty]

i was reading the LONG post about mistakes folks have made brewing and still had results (it gave me hope for my under-primed brown ale). it left me wondering why my kit instructions are so crappy. you would be led to believe they want you to have a "simple" experience so you come back. BUT these instruction leave so much out that your chances of success are very low in my opinion. the first kit i used said to use BLEACH to sanitze, never mentioned anything about specific temps for wort boiling ect, never mentioned anything about aeration when transfering to bottling bucket, never said anything about the absolute importance of cleanliness (especially when using bleach). was not clear on how to read my hydrometer (still not sure im doing it right), does not talk about the CORRECT times for leaving things in fermenter .

is there an old thread someone can point me to that goes over the REAL process i should follow ?

 

[BrewInATL]

Yep. Most directions are bad.

Check out the directions that NorthernBrewer.com supplies:

General Beer Kit Instructions

I found them to be just fine.

 

[strider]

Better yet, How to Brew - By John Palmer

 

[yeasty]

thanks guys ! i am just a little disappointed in the retailers. how hard it would it be to put a sheet of some better instructions in with the kit ??? when i called the retailer about some things i might have done wrong he said "why didnt you call me first ?" and i replied "why didnt you put better instructions in your kit ?"......it got me no where.

 

[Baboon]

I made sure to spend a lot of time studying the instructions, playing with the equipment, and asking questions before I actually got started brewing.

The Northern Brewer instructions were decent but I do have a couple of beefs. First, the instructions show pictures of all the equipment but nothing is labeled. For a brand new brewer like myself, I didn't know what the heck anything was so I had to go to their website and look everything up. Second, the instructions don't explain the difference between a full boil and partial boil. They only tell you how to make adjustments for the prior. Third, the basic kit instructions refer you to the instructions that came with the kit for an explanation on secondary fermenting. Well the instructions I was holding were the only instructions that came with the kit. I've got two weeks to figure out the secondary fermentation process but I'm not too worried about it.

I'm being nitpicky though. All in all, the instructions were good enough to get me through.

 

[Joe_Stout]

I like the instructions that Midwest gives better than my local home brew supply. Most of their kits have you drop your specialty grains in and bring to near boiling and remove rather than steep at 155 degrees for 30 min. I'm not sure that there is a problem with that as they have turned out good beer but, I get a better feeling with the steeping for 30 min at 155 degrees.

 

[Revvy]

Northern brewer's instruction are some of the best...they show longer fermentattion/aging/carbonation times for each beer...up to several months.

But the answer is pretty simple, generally speaking kit manufacturers, especially kit an kilo manufacturers, are concerned with selling more and more kits NOT with the brewer making the best beer possible. They no that if they say in the instructions to wait, they may loose some people to hobbies that have more instant gratification.

They also know that the time that a homebrewer will remain buying kits is relatively short...they know that after a few kits, the brewer will either give up, start brewing extract batches from recipes in books and places like this, formulate their own recipes, or go all grain...so they want to sell as many kits as possible to the new brewer before he moves on to bigger and better things.

SO they no that even their beer will taste better if you leave it longer...but they know that in the time you wait you will be reading and learning and be less likely to buy another kit...They can sell three or four kits to you if you follow their directions in the same time frame that listening to us and waiting a month and bottle conditioning for another 3-4 weeks.

But Even Palmer says you should wait with kits...

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

I made great beer with brewer's best kits...I liked some of the recipes so much I brewed them with generic ingredients...I just calculated the LME for DME, and bought my hops and steeping grains ala-cart.

 

[XXguy]

The biggest thing I see is that Kit instructions are usually being written by someone with experience, who assumes the person reading the instructions has similar knowledge and abilities. Sometimes, they try to make it seem a little more simple, but they leave out some key steps in the process that would easily allow you to trip up if you're a newbie.

Luckily, anyone who has made it to HBT & is reading this stuff already has access to some great info & if they can use the search feature & take a few hours to read the basic steps, they'll quickly learn the necessary steps & they can just take the instructions as a general overview of the intended recipe.

I got into brewing because I enjoy cooking. Some of the best recipes I got were written by little old ladies & swiped out of Church cookbooks. They often forgot to write down some necessary steps, so if someone took the instructions literally step by step they'd never make an edible dish. However, if you knew the basic steps already, you could see the overall big picture & see the "special" ingredients being used to spice things up. I take brewing as kind of the same thing, you can find some gems of experience here & there if you take the time to know what the basic steps should be.

 

[alpo]

It's also largely because all their instructions are the same for every type of beer. They have a big template with generic instructions and they just fill in the blanks.. "0.5 oz Cascade," etc. As we all know, to really get it right, the procedure will vary depending on the ingredients.

I'm sure AHS or any other home brew shop would love for you to write 2 or 3 pages of custom instructions for each of their 300 kits.

From a business perspective, it makes no sense to spend thousands of manhours on something that only noobs are going to read anyway. Not to mention, a lot of techniques are subject to individual style and equipment availability anyway, so there's always going to be people who disagree with instructions because there no way to please everyone, even if the instructions are custom made by Palmer himself.

Following instructions will make beer, plain and simple. They are for total noobs. That's all they're there for. LHBS's understand that after you make a few batches, you aren't going to use them anymore, except for the measurements.

It's like buying a Mr. Beer or whatever. It's just something to help you get off the ground.

 

[yeasty]

It's also largely because all their instructions are the same for every type of beer. They have a big template with generic instructions and they just fill in the blanks.. "0.5 oz Cascade," etc. As we all know, to really get it right, the procedure will vary depending on the ingredients.

I'm sure AHS or any other home brew shop would love for you to write 2 or 3 pages of custom instructions for each of their 300 kits.

From a business perspective, it makes no sense to spend thousands of manhours on something that only noobs are going to read anyway. Not to mention, a lot of techniques are subject to individual style and equipment availability anyway, so there's always going to be people who disagree with instructions because there no way to please everyone, even if the instructions are custom made by Palmer himself.

Following instructions will make beer, plain and simple. They are for total noobs. That's all they're there for. LHBS's understand that after you make a few batches, you aren't going to use them anymore, except for the measurements.

It's like buying a Mr. Beer or whatever. It's just something to help you get off the ground.

i understand your point but thats pretty crappy customer service from the consumer point of view. other hobbies i am involved in treat the newcomers like GOLD because they know therein lies the future of your business selling kits. if you got a bunch of noobs on the street sayin brewing your own beer is a PITA and not worth it nobody wins in the retail gig. (someone said it ...after a while you are likely to get your own ingredients because the kits are inferior, maybe that wouldnt happen if they put more care into what they are selling) i say treat the noob right and he will spread his experience to others . there is no better advertisement for a beer kit than some proud noob boasting how easy it was and talking others into trying it after they sample a taste !

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

thanks guys ! i am just a little disappointed in the retailers. how hard it would it be to put a sheet of some better instructions in with the kit ??? when i called the retailer about some things i might have done wrong he said "why didnt you call me first ?" and i replied "why didnt you put better instructions in your kit ?"......it got me no where.

Hell when my friend went into out local brew supply shop and said I am NEW what do I need. He sold him an incomplete kit. No auto siphon, bottling bucket, thermometer, spoon and other not so vital parts. But the worst is he put a recipe together for him and just wrote it on a piece of paper. Steep x for x long no temp mentioned. Boil x add x add x cool, pitch yeast. No mentioning of start up, aeration nothing. He didn't even crush the grains or tell him that they needed to be crushed so the were not! The best advise I found was in palmers book. Too bad I had 3-4 brews going before I got the book! I would expect it more from an online store but a local shop thats just bad.

 

[yeasty]

Hell when my friend went into out local brew supply shop and said I am NEW what do I need. He sold him an incomplete kit. No auto siphon, bottling bucket, thermometer, spoon and other not so vital parts. But the worst is he put a recipe together for him and just wrote it on a piece of paper. Steep x for x long no temp mentioned. Boil x add x add x cool, pitch yeast. No mentioning of start up, aeration nothing. He didn't even crush the grains or tell him that they needed to be crushed so the were not! The best advise I found was in palmers book. Too bad I had 3-4 brews going before I got the book! I would expect it more from an online store but a local shop thats just bad.

that is basically what happened to me

 

[Revvy]

The two hosts of Australian Craftbrewer Radio (the FIRST beer podcast, with hosts with a combined 60 years of brewing no-how and 10 years on radio or podcast) have a couple of interesting pieces to improve kit beers...

There's this multi-part article (with sublinks in side the article.)

Improving Your Kit

And this...

April 22nd, 2007

The guys get “Down and Dirty” for the Kit and Kilo brewer with the simplist yet method of making a kit beer that tastes great. They also taste the underpitched beer experiment, and follow up on a brewers problem with under-atttenuation. Our beer superhero tries to save the love of his life - and Wonder-Mole, while we look into a beer belly experiment. More on how to say beer words, drink driving, beer laws and a quiz question will fill out the program, with a typical Aussie beer tale sung at the end.

Clicky to listen.
http://radio.craftbrewer.org/shows/April2-07.mp3

 

[user 30639]

I've only ever ordered kits from Austin Homebrew Supply, so I don't have any others to compare to. But I've found the AHS instructions simple and straightforward.

 

[alpo]

i understand your point but thats pretty crappy customer service from the consumer point of view. other hobbies i am involved in treat the newcomers like GOLD because they know therein lies the future of your business selling kits. if you got a bunch of noobs on the street sayin brewing your own beer is a PITA and not worth it nobody wins in the retail gig. (someone said it ...after a while you are likely to get your own ingredients because the kits are inferior, maybe that wouldnt happen if they put more care into what they are selling) i say treat the noob right and he will spread his experience to others . there is no better advertisement for a beer kit than some proud noob boasting how easy it was and talking others into trying it after they sample a taste !

Well, that's just the thing. Even though instructions aren't perfect, they will usually still make better beer than the newcomer expects, at least as good as most of the stuff on the grocery shelf.

 

[Shawn Hargreaves]

In defense of the kit creators, I actually think it makes sense for them to provide highly simplified instructions. It is pretty bad that they tell people the beer will be done so quickly, but outside of that, I think it's fine that they leave out so much other info.

Different people learn in different ways. Me, I like to learn as much as I can about a subject before I dive into doing it myself. The best way to do that is by reading a book. Myself, I started brewing by reading Complete Joy Of Homebrewing. After three moderately successful batches using purely info from that book, I found myself with questions that it didn't answer, so I got a couple more books, and found these forums. Having these extra sources of info helped me figure out which things in Papazian's book are universally true, which are personal preference, and which are outdated and have since been improved on. But that book did a great job of getting me started.

Other people prefer to learn by doing rather than reading. My girlfriend, for instance, would never have made it through an entire book before her first brew. Give her a bullet list of ten steps, and she'll follow them. Then maybe next time around you can add a couple of extra steps, as she gets a better handle on what she's doing. But give her a list of fifty steps, and she'll give up in disgust, or randomly decide to skip half of them.

So what is a brewing kit creator to do? Sure, they could make instructions that talk about water chemistry, aeration, oxidization, pitching rates, etc. But many first time brewers will never bother to read so much info. Of those who do, I bet a high percentage would find it absolutely terrifying, and end up on here posting "did I ruin my beer by adding half a pound of salt in an attempt to fix my tap water?" threads

And for the handful of people who really do want so much detailed info before they attempt their first brew, surely kit instructions are the wrong place for that in any case? At some point, the instructions get so complex that they'd be better off just selling a book along with the kit instead (which was exactly what my LHBS did, bless them).

I don't think the goal of kit instructions for a first time brewer is to make the best beer possible. It should be designed to make beer, ideally decent beer, but really any drinkable beer is good enough, in as simple a way as possible, without introducing anything scary or complicated or that requires too much in the way of precise measurement or process control.

The sad thing for me is when I see people who have made dozens of batches, but are still using simple kit instructions, pre-hopped extract, etc. That's fine for your first attempt, but somewhere around batch two or three you really need to learn more than can be fit onto a single sheet of A4 paper!

 

[zippyslug31]

This is a good topic and I agree totally with the OP. I'm def in the learning phase (just see my other post!) and have found home brewing to be fairly frustrating since I have yet to really get it right.

Which brings me to another thought. During my "what am I doing wrong" questions, both here on this site and in person with others, plenty of ppl have told me "don't do those crappy kits, instead get yourself some grains and malts and this and that........".
What makes a person think for a minute that if a noob can't get a can of extract to work then they will instead somehow be able to correctly make up a full mash? This has always escaped me.

While I can't say I've done the full-meal-deal with grains, it can't be easier than openning a can and dumping it into water. While I've heard that you will get better results by doing a full grain, I expect at least SOME results with a can kit.
By including inaccurate instructions (as the OP points out) is just silly, and ultimately I think can turn lots of folks/perspective future customer away from home brewing all together.

My .02

 

[zippyslug31]

It is pretty bad that they tell people the beer will be done so quickly

My biggest single issue with the kit creators.

BTW, I'm a lot like your girlfriend with the learning curve.

 

[Revvy]

This is a good topic and I agree totally with the OP. I'm def in the learning phase (just see my other post!) and have found home brewing to be fairly frustrating since I have yet to really get it right.

Which brings me to another thought. During my "what am I doing wrong" questions, both here on this site and in person with others, plenty of ppl have told me "don't do those crappy kits, instead get yourself some grains and malts and this and that........".
What makes a person think for a minute that if a noob can't get a can of extract to work then they will instead somehow be able to correctly make up a full mash? This has always escaped me.

My .02

Because more than likely for all the typical reasons we now about, they made crappy beer with it. And rather than look at where they were when they started out (knowing practically nothing about brewing) they blame the kit ingredients on it, rather than their then lack of understanding of the brewing process....

Many Many award winning beers have been made out of kits...Just like tons of extract batches win awards every year, even smoking all grain batches in the same category. Anybody paying attention to a few simple things, with info on here can make GREAT beer with most kits...and drinkable beer with all kits..

There's plenty of things that can be done and is on this site talked about over and over and over, and even in Palmer, on on the link I posted earlier...Such as,

Adding DME rather than sugar (where sugar is required)
Late extract addition
Full Boil
Using better quality sanitizers than they had in the beginning
Using irish moss
Quick cooling with a chiller rather than an ice bath.
Temp control during fermentation
Long time in Primary
3 weeks minimum in bottles, if not longer...
Applying RDWHAHB and Patience Patience Patience

If the same brewers who dissed the kits, went back and applied all the knowledge that they now have to the humble kit, they would be surprised that the beer would turn out as good as it will...

They are not the same brewers they were when they started out. More than likely all the little tips, tricks, bits of info and dialed in brewing process would overcome any limitiations from using a kit...

I betcha even they would change their tune on how they felt about kits, once they tasted the fruits of the brewing skills they have learned SINCE they last brewed a kit to it...

 

[yeasty]

dont get me wrong...i know simple can be good. but please let the consumer have as much info as possible presented in an easily deciphered script. assuming a "noob" is synonymous with "knucklehead" is unfair. in my case the "kit" was actually the whole she-bang (everything needed not just the extracts). more than a 40.00 investment.

*like for example nothing was mentioned about boiling top off water to sanitize it (i used filtered water from my fridge spigot)

*like i said they told me to use BLEACH to sanitize.

*never said crush the grain

*never mentioned importance of aeration

*really they dont mention MOST of the subtle things that help


i think there is a diff between incomplete directions and BAD directions


sorry guys just venting....

 

[yeasty]

Because more than likely for all the typical reasons we now about, they made crappy beer with it. And rather than look at where they were when they started out (knowing practically nothing about brewing) they blame the kit ingredients on it, rather than their then lack of understanding of the brewing process....

Many Many award winning beers have been made out of kits...Just like tons of extract batches win awards every year, even smoking all grain batches in the same category. Anybody paying attention to a few simple things, with info on here can make GREAT beer with most kits...and drinkable beer with all kits..

There's plenty of things that can be done and is on this site talked about over and over and over, and even in Palmer, on on the link I posted earlier...Such as,

Adding DME rather than sugar (where sugar is required)
Late extract addition
Full Boil
Using better quality sanitizers than they had in the beginning
Using irish moss
Quick cooling with a chiller rather than an ice bath.
Temp control during fermentation
Long time in Primary
3 weeks minimum in bottles, if not longer...
Applying RDWHAHB and Patience Patience Patience

If the same brewers who dissed the kits, went back and applied all the knowledge that they now have to the humble kit, they would be surprised that the beer would turn out as good as it will...

They are not the same brewers they were when they started out. More than likely all the little tips, tricks, bits of info and dialed in brewing process would overcome any limitiations from using a kit...

I betcha even they would change their tune on how they felt about kits, once they tasted the fruits of the brewing skills they have learned SINCE they last brewed a kit to it...

i aint dissing KITS just the lousy DIRECTIONS they come with......

 

[strider]

Topping of with tap is ok. If the tap has chlorine a charcoal filter or boiling can drive it off. Even wirhout though, I've made fine beers w/ straight tap

Bleach not the best, but I have used it in the past. (I do agree here though)

If the grain didn't come crushed, ya thats not so good. My guess though is it would be ok just for steeping.

If toping of with 2.5g of cold tap, it's probably aerated enough.

 

[Shawn Hargreaves]

During my "what am I doing wrong" questions, both here on this site and in person with others, plenty of ppl have told me "don't do those crappy kits, instead get yourself some grains and malts and this and that........".
What makes a person think for a minute that if a noob can't get a can of extract to work then they will instead somehow be able to correctly make up a full mash? This has always escaped me.

I certainly wouldn't suggest a beginner try mashing until they have several successful extract brews under their belt!

But there are many interesting choices in between a pre-hopped extract kit, and full on all-grain mashing.

In ascending order of complexity:

• Prehopped extract kit: simple but quality is dubious
• Unhopped extract + fresh hops: equally simple, but makes much better beer
• Extract + hops + steeping grains: slightly more complex, but can produce much more varied and better tasting brews
• Partial mashing: significantly more complex (requires accurate measurements and temperature control, and takes much longer), but opens up a wider range of ingredients and gives more control over the final wort, so allows a wider range of beer styles to be produced
• All grain: same basic process as a partial mash, but with larger volumes, which requires more equipment

I see absolutely no point in ever using prehopped extract. If you are capable of buying a can, opening it, pouring into a pan, and boiling, you are equally capable of buying a different can plus a package of hops, opening them both, and pouring the contents of both into the same pan before you boil. It's no more complex at all, but makes better beer.

I also don't think that steeping grains is at all difficult. I would have no hesitation recommending this for a total beginner. If you can make tea using a teabag, you can make beer using steeping grains In fact my first ever brew included steeping grains. I did a ton of stuff wrong, but it still came out tasting great. Then in my second brew, I didn't boil the grains (having learned that can extract tannins) and that one tasted even better

Partial mashing or all grain is a whole different kettle of fish. I certainly don't recommend you try that right from the outset!

In this case I'm not sure it is valid to say "if I can't even do the simple stuff right, I'm not ready to move up to something more complex". An analogy: guy is making breakfast using reconstituted egg powder. It tastes like crap. His wife says "why don't you just scramble a real egg instead?" but he says "man, if I can't even make a good omelet from this preprocessed powder, no way I'd stand a chance with fresh ingredients"...

 

[Shawn Hargreaves]

*really they dont mention MOST of the subtle things that help

Brewing is full of subtle things that help, though. Where do you stop?

Seems to me this stuff really belongs in a book. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the instructions that come with a kit to cover everything involved in such a complex hobby.

It would make more sense to me if the equipment starter kits aimed at beginners included a proper book rather than just a page of instructions. It doesn't really make sense to replicate this info along with each individual recipe kit: surely the overall brewing process is something that can be explained properly once, after which individual recipe kits can just list when to add each ingredient?

 

[Revvy]

Brewing is full of subtle things that help, though. Where do you stop?

Seems to me this stuff really belongs in a book. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the instructions that come with a kit to cover everything involved in such a complex hobby.

It would make more sense to me if the equipment starter kits aimed at beginners included a proper book rather than just a page of instructions. It doesn't really make sense to replicate this info along with each individual recipe kit: surely the overall brewing process is something that can be explained properly once, after which individual recipe kits can just list when to add each ingredient?

I agree!!!

The thing is the info is out there (how/why did you all end up here?) Before I cracked that first tin of Mr Beer UME, I had already read "how to brew," and all the articles I could fined about how to improve kit beers, and what not to do with the mr beer recipe, and pretty much how I ended up here....so the first mr beer recipe was already modified based on the info..meaning I didn't use the booster and added a pound of dme instead....added some aroma and flavor hops, did it as a full boil, tossed out the yeast and bought an ale yeast that reflected the style, let it sit in primary for 2 weeks, bulk primed it via a page I had found online that used a 2 gallon water jug with a spigot and a hose attached, and let it bottle condition for 3 weeks...

And it was awesome....not cidery or watery or thin...in fact I had one of them a year later and it was even better...and I have one left, that I don't know when I will crack.

But all that info was what I found online....I mean anything I've ever gotten into in like the last decade, even buying my last car, has been done with some google digging....If I hear something or am excited about something the first thing I do is hit the web....so, while I agree that handing out a good book in a kit (I think some kits do include it) this is the 21st century....5 minutes online would bring any new brewer to a site like this...and they would pretty much learn what NOT to do on almost any homebrewing website....I know when I'm excited about something I plunge full tilt into it, and try to learn as much info on it...I still do that.

I dunno..I don't think there's an answer that's gonna touch every learning style....I think all of us have to be teachers and ambasadors of the hobby...like if you are in a shop and some guy is buying his first kit...talk to him about it...give him the link to here...Invite him.her to your place the next time you brew...I've hauld my gear to a couple people's houses and showed them how to brew (AG) and it's been fun (and I ended up with some venison shoulders out of the deal)

Remember, you are always one batch ahead of some brewer, and one batch behind....It's a continuoum of learning...someone hands you some info, and you hand some to the guy behind you.

 

[Shawn Hargreaves]

Hear hear, Revvy!

Helping people with their first brew is incredibly rewarding. I've only done that once to date, but am on the look out for more potential victims

The best thing is, not only do you get a chance to set someone up with a good process, but you most likely get a decent portion of at least their first half dozen brews in return!

 

[bell0347]

They have a very narrow consumer target range and the product is designed for absolute ease and limited technical understanding of beer making. More of a novelty I guess.

Kinda like buying soup in a can. Sure it fills you up and is decent but nothing like grandma's homemade with fresh ingredients and years of experience making it.

They really could improve the instructions but I think they are targeting the guy who walks buy, picks up the can and says, Hey look honey I can brew beer at home, lets try it.

I think they understand that if you are serious about doing it right you will research a little, perhaps read a book or something first. Then you will know some of the little details that can greatly improve your beer.

Your LHBS should absolutely give you some better, more detailed instructions with the kit. And a phone number to call if you have any questions!

 

[yeasty]

I agree!!!

The thing is the info is out there (how/why did you all end up here?) Before I cracked that first tin of Mr Beer UME, I had already read "how to brew," and all the articles I could fined about how to improve kit beers, and what not to do with the mr beer recipe, and pretty much how I ended up here....so the first mr beer recipe was already modified based on the info..meaning I didn't use the booster and added a pound of dme instead....added some aroma and flavor hops, did it as a full boil, tossed out the yeast and bought an ale yeast that reflected the style, let it sit in primary for 2 weeks, bulk primed it via a page I had found online that used a 2 gallon water jug with a spigot and a hose attached, and let it bottle condition for 3 weeks...

And it was awesome....not cidery or watery or thin...in fact I had one of them a year later and it was even better...and I have one left, that I don't know when I will crack.

But all that info was what I found online....I mean anything I've ever gotten into in like the last decade, even buying my last car, has been done with some google digging....If I hear something or am excited about something the first thing I do is hit the web....so, while I agree that handing out a good book in a kit (I think some kits do include it) this is the 21st century....5 minutes online would bring any new brewer to a site like this...and they would pretty much learn what NOT to do on almost any homebrewing website....I know when I'm excited about something I plunge full tilt into it, and try to learn as much info on it...I still do that.

I dunno..I don't think there's an answer that's gonna touch every learning style....I think all of us have to be teachers and ambasadors of the hobby...like if you are in a shop and some guy is buying his first kit...talk to him about it...give him the link to here...Invite him.her to your place the next time you brew...I've hauld my gear to a couple people's houses and showed them how to brew (AG) and it's been fun (and I ended up with some venison shoulders out of the deal)

Remember, you are always one batch ahead of some brewer, and one batch behind....It's a continuoum of learning...someone hands you some info, and you hand some to the guy behind you.

hear ! hear! X2 thats what my pontiac buddies are like ! it was MY mistake being a "forums" guy already that i did not find you guys before i messed up !

 

[Revvy]

They have a very narrow consumer target range and the product is designed for absolute ease and limited technical understanding of beer making. More of a novelty I guess.

Kinda like buying soup in a can. Sure it fills you up and is decent but nothing like grandma's homemade with fresh ingredients and years of experience making it.

See I don't buy this "extract kits are like canned soup" argument, because there's a few more things that a brewer can do with a can of extract that can make it better, I listed them above, late extract addition, etc, etc...

you can put in just as much attention to detail, care and effort into a kit batch as you can do with your own recipe, and with all grain...

And that even includes prehopped extract kits...THe Aussies gave plenty of advice beyond what I did, in turning a cooper's kit into something special...they even took their batches to a couple homebrew clubs for tastings and people couldn't believe that that was based on Cooper's kits.

I have made some great beers with extracts...and I have made some stinkers, but I have also made some AG stinkers as well...it's more about the process, and the brewer than the ingredients...

I've never like the argument idea that one type of brewing makes better beer than the other, I think that speaks of elitism and snobbery, that quite frankly is antithema to this hobby...especially since I have never heard or read Papazian say such a thing...in fact I have herad him say that in this hobby MORE people brew kits than Brew All Grain despite what it seems on forums...

I think this hobby is way too democratic and good natured to allow us to slip into "My way is better than your way" eliticism.

I wrote a blog about it awhile ago...

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Why_cant_we_all_get_along/

 

[BPD]

I certainly wouldn't suggest a beginner try mashing until they have several successful extract brews under their belt!

But there are many interesting choices in between a pre-hopped extract kit, and full on all-grain mashing.

In ascending order of complexity:

• Prehopped extract kit: simple but quality is dubious
• Unhopped extract + fresh hops: equally simple, but makes much better beer
• Extract + hops + steeping grains: slightly more complex, but can produce much more varied and better tasting brews
• Partial mashing: significantly more complex (requires accurate measurements and temperature control, and takes much longer), but opens up a wider range of ingredients and gives more control over the final wort, so allows a wider range of beer styles to be produced
• All grain: same basic process as a partial mash, but with larger volumes, which requires more equipment

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I also don't think that steeping grains is at all difficult. I would have no hesitation recommending this for a total beginner. If you can make tea using a teabag, you can make beer using steeping grains

I absolutely agree with this. May of '08 brewed my first batch (didn't get Palmer's book until the third brew) bought my kit from Annapolis Home brew after seeing several similar(MWS, NB, AHS) 1st extract kit was also from Annapolis and had very good instructions, I looked online at Annapolis and NB for the instructions which are similar, the kit itself made me choose Annapolis over NB. brewed their PA Lager and everything went step by step. My Second kit was from AHS and their instructions are also very good, again another lager (Oktoberfest), 3rd Kit was a Wit from Annapolis and was a mini mash. am up to number 9 and decided and have learned a lot in the past several months. My next batch I plan to go to partial mash and thanks to the good people here just built my own Lauter Tun from this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-super-efficient-5-gallon-mash-lauter-tun-92724/

sorry for the digression but I just wanted to reiterate above/below and agree with the OP that good instructions do make a difference

thats pretty crappy customer service from the consumer point of view. other hobbies i am involved in treat the newcomers like GOLD because they know therein lies the future of your business selling kits. if you got a bunch of noobs on the street sayin brewing your own beer is a PITA and not worth it nobody wins in the retail gig. (someone said it ...after a while you are likely to get your own ingredients because the kits are inferior, maybe that wouldnt happen if they put more care into what they are selling) i say treat the noob right and he will spread his experience to others . there is no better advertisement for a beer kit than some proud noob boasting how easy it was and talking others into trying it after they sample a taste !

AHS, NB, AHB, all have very good instructions, order one of their kits and have fun