Why are controllers so expensive?

[cyclogenesis]

Ok.. I am no miser, I have much more expensive hobbies than brewing but I am pretty blown away to the cost of going "off the shelf" electric...

One of the cheapest options seems to be the stuff high gravity are selling but can anyone explain what makes this box:
EBC II with Infinite Power Control - High Gravity

so expensive?

 

[iijakii]

Because there aren't many commercial offerings so they can charge that much, mostly.

Time to DIY!

 

[Homercidal]

Did you peek inside??

I see a fan to cool the unit, some wires, a Solid State Relay, and a PWM circuit. The PWM circuit looks like it's homebrewed on a breadboard. Not even a printed circuit board.

Honestly, it's about a $60 list of parts, maybe less. There are several threads on here that show you how to do the same thing yourself and save $$$$$$$.

 

[cyclogenesis]

I am thinking about doing just that... just doing the risk benefit.. and yes I did look at the inside pic and that is exactly what prompted my question!

 

[cyclogenesis]

Out of interest does anyone just bypass the controller expense, just to begin with?
ie if I got two of these:
Heating Element - 4500 Watt SS - High Gravity
One for the HLT one for the kettle, would just plugging into the wall (once I get a GFCI put in) work?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

My guess is that by the time you build it yourself you will save $50. You will be amazed how fast the cost of parts adds up. The only way to save money on something like this is to do a bad job building it (i.e., not using proper components or safety measures). That said, you would probably save $50ish.

 

[Bsquared]

Out of interest does anyone just bypass the controller expense, just to begin with?
ie if I got two of these:
Heating Element - 4500 Watt SS - High Gravity
One for the HLT one for the kettle, would just plugging into the wall (once I get a GFCI put in) work?

"For 5 - 10 gallon batches in a 15 gallon kettle, fine power control like that provided by the EBC II is recommended, or the evaporation rate will exceed 20% per hour."

I'd be a bit leery of pulling that in and out of the socket to control it being on or off. Maybe think about installing a 30A disconnect along with the GFCI.

 

[bowhuntah]

My guess is that by the time you build it yourself you will save $50. You will be amazed how fast the cost of parts adds up. The only way to save money on something like this is to do a bad job building it (i.e., not using proper components or safety measures). That said, you would probably save $50ish.

I can't speak for everyone else but I saved a hell of a lot more than $50. Plus, building it yourself is a lot of fun!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Its just my experience. I have built a silly amount of homebrew equipment and while DIY does save money, unless you do a chincy job, the savings are no where near what many claim. I recognize many will come out of the woodwork with the 'but I built my whole setup for $5' argument, but it just isn't true. When comparing apples to apples, these systems just cost a bunch, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Dert]

Out of interest does anyone just bypass the controller expense, just to begin with?
ie if I got two of these:
Heating Element - 4500 Watt SS - High Gravity
One for the HLT one for the kettle, would just plugging into the wall (once I get a GFCI put in) work?

I just plug my 5500 HLT into a GFCI spa panel and heat her up to about 200 degrees. I use my herims to keep mash temps and to mashout.

I switch it over to a 3800 boil kettle and let it rip- my system uses converted sankes without insulation.

No controls other than the 50a breaker... Haven't got around to building a control panel yet (although I've had the parts for > 7 years). I've made about 20 all grain 12 gallon batches this year using the electric system.

I had been planning to go electric for quite some time- finally stumbled on the soldering SS thread. My delay was welding the fittings, finally just soldered them...works great.

Especially sine I was brewing w/ LP indoors for the last 12 years! I love the electric!

 

[birvine]

Out of interest does anyone just bypass the controller expense, just to begin with?
ie if I got two of these:
Heating Element - 4500 Watt SS - High Gravity
One for the HLT one for the kettle, would just plugging into the wall (once I get a GFCI put in) work?

I went through a similar thought process a couple weeks ago and have been reading tonnes on here ever since.

I started by installing a 120v element in my HLT which works fine. Next I'll add two of them to my BK. By that time, I figure I'll have it sorted out in my mind what equipment to buy for controlling the temps.

Though not inexpensive, I am REALLY enjoying the learning and thought processes involved. I'm sure there are a few ways to get the controller done so I want to balance elegance with cost and no matter what - ensure safety. The linked item seems a bit expensive but there is at least one PID ($45-50) an SSR ($20-30?), a box ($10-20), some sockets and switches ($5-15). Then someone had to drill the holes and assemble them. As a hobby I do these things and enjoy them. If it was a business I'd be charging for my work.

B

 

[bowhuntah]

Its just my experience. I have built a silly amount of homebrew equipment and while DIY does save money, unless you do a chincy job, the savings are no where near what many claim. I recognize many will come out of the woodwork with the 'but I built my whole setup for $5' argument, but it just isn't true. When comparing apples to apples, these systems just cost a bunch, no matter how you slice it.

I'm not saying they don't cost a bunch but there is definately money to be saved. BTW, I didn't do a "chincy" job.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

On a quick and dirty estimate, I would say the parts for this assembly would cost about $176 before shipping. So say $190 in hand unless you are super fortunate to have a big electric supply house near you. Then if you know how to assemble a rheostat in line with a SSR with a pigtail override, a couple switches, and a breadboard and you have the 4ish hours this would likely take to assemblew the first time, then yes you can save $60-80. This kind of thing makes an awesome project and you save money.

The question posited in this thread was why these things and similar items are so expensive. It is because the people making them aren't doing it for charity. The guy assembling this isn't getting rich. You can save money doing it yourself, but have no illusions of making this same setup for $50.

To your other question, you do not need a controller. It would be best to know the size of your batches and size the element accordingly. That way you could be pretty much assured you will not have to much evaporation. The control you posted just gives you flexibility and a higher degree of output power to the element.

 

[lazybean]

here is the commercial equivilent. This is the cheapest around at $119. plus you will have to buy the programing software for $395. You will have to know how to create PLC ladder logic or pay some one to create and install the logic.


I work with the Allen Bradly (cost a lot more for the equipment and is $5k for the software), and i think the BCS and other type controllers are smoking deals.

If its worth it is up to you. I really like the idea of having more precise control, and removing the "oh crap i forgot to start my timer" out of my brew day.

 

[Zen_Brew]

It's also a time vs money issue. You may be able to build something similiar to the EBC II for say $100-150, but now factor in the time planning, and laying out, and assembling. I went through this exercise a year ago and decided with my 999 other projects I had going, that building a controller was not something I needed to undertake. I actually purchased the EBC II and a couple 4500W elements from high gravity brewing.

Sure I could have probably customized my own controller with better control and customization options for about the same cost, but by buying the unit pre-built I just had to mount it, and plug it in. I do think the price was a bit high, but it does what it is supposed to do and I have had no trouble with it over the last year of extensive brewing with it.

 

[cyclogenesis]

I went through a similar thought process a couple weeks ago and have been reading tonnes on here ever since.

I started by installing a 120v element in my HLT which works fine. Next I'll add two of them to my BK. By that time, I figure I'll have it sorted out in my mind what equipment to buy for controlling the temps.

Though not inexpensive, I am REALLY enjoying the learning and thought processes involved. I'm sure there are a few ways to get the controller done so I want to balance elegance with cost and no matter what - ensure safety. The linked item seems a bit expensive but there is at least one PID ($45-50) an SSR ($20-30?), a box ($10-20), some sockets and switches ($5-15). Then someone had to drill the holes and assemble them. As a hobby I do these things and enjoy them. If it was a business I'd be charging for my work.

B

What 120v element did you buy?

 

[cyclogenesis]

On a quick and dirty estimate, I would say the parts for this assembly would cost about $176 before shipping. So say $190 in hand unless you are super fortunate to have a big electric supply house near you. Then if you know how to assemble a rheostat in line with a SSR with a pigtail override, a couple switches, and a breadboard and you have the 4ish hours this would likely take to assemblew the first time, then yes you can save $60-80. This kind of thing makes an awesome project and you save money.

The question posited in this thread was why these things and similar items are so expensive. It is because the people making them aren't doing it for charity. The guy assembling this isn't getting rich. You can save money doing it yourself, but have no illusions of making this same setup for $50.

To your other question, you do not need a controller. It would be best to know the size of your batches and size the element accordingly. That way you could be pretty much assured you will not have to much evaporation. The control you posted just gives you flexibility and a higher degree of output power to the element.

Thanks, part of the questIon was about the components involved... And this answers it nicely...

 

[birvine]

What 120v element did you buy?

I bought it at Canadian Tire but finding it online is harder than I'd have thought!?!

GSW # 86117A

GSW Parts Catalog - which has basically no info.

It has a screw-in flange with 1" NPS threading. I went to the electrical section of Home Hardware where I picked up a conduit lockring that fit perfectly. I may end up with corrosion at the junction of these metals, but maybe if I keep them dry when not in use they'll be ok for a bit.

I followed a few threads here on HBT and glued an ABS piece to the element so I could build a protective case around the wiring. I drilled a hole through the ABS and mounted a bolt with a few nuts so I could connect the groundwire from the power cable (ripped out of a power bar) on the inside, then I ran a wire from the outer bolt of this ground rod and clamped it to the handle of the pot. The element touches the pot so it, too, is grounded. I checked for continuity from the ground prong to the element and it's good.

Finally, the power cord is connected through a GFCI just in case.

I figure I'll do pretty well the same thing in the BK but x 2. So now I'm reading how to build a controller to plug all of these in.

I'm hoping P-J steps in with a word or two of advice at some point.

B

 

[hatfieldenator]

Go to The Electric Brewery, spend around 1200 on parts, spend a couple of weeks assembling a control panel as outlined on the website and you'll end up with a bullet proof control panel that will look great and work even better.

 

[audger]

My guess is that by the time you build it yourself you will save $50.

for $295, this is what i see in the box...

$5 enclosure
$4 fan
$2 perf board and resistors/caps
$1 potentiometer
$10-15 for what looks like a contactor or relay of some sort
$2-6 for the power FET or whatever that is on the heatsink
$3 heatsink
$10 for the receptical
$10 for the wire+plug

thats a total of $47, not including shipping, but thats also being generous. if i was making 50 or 100 of these, i could get the materials for closer to $30. charging $248, or 525% of materials cost, just for assembly is... ballsy.

edit- forgot to count the top of the box, so add $5-10 for the switches and other receptical.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

You are better at sourcing components than I am.

 

[Homercidal]

for $295, this is what i see in the box...

$5 enclosure
$4 fan
$2 perf board and resistors/caps
$1 potentiometer
$10-15 for what looks like a contactor or relay of some sort
$2-6 for the power FET or whatever that is on the heatsink
$3 heatsink
$10 for the receptical
$10 for the wire+plug

thats a total of $47, not including shipping, but thats also being generous. if i was making 50 or 100 of these, i could get the materials for closer to $30. charging $248, or 525% of materials cost, just for assembly is... ballsy.

edit- forgot to count the top of the box, so add $5-10 for the switches and other receptical.

I'm guessing there is a relay in there, and it's probably 220V and 30A or 40A. That's probably $40 or more.

But it's still probably less than $100. We can only guess at the quality of the parts from what little we can see.

Certainly there is a value in having it built for you. But only if you don't consider the building it yourself as a bonus...

 

[jma99]

Sorry guys, but between kids, demanding job with travel, I'd rather brew than build!

I have a very simple system from High Gravity:
Electric Kettle Controller - High Gravity
and this:
Heating Element - 5500 Watt SS - High Gravity

I mash single infusion in a cooler, and batch sparge.
I crank out 10 gal of very good AG brew in about 4 hours.

Cost was more than worth it to me.

BTW the folks at High Gravity are great to work with! Highly recommended!

 

[jusware]

I built my rims panel based on theelectricbrewery and spent quite a bit less than 1200$. Mine has a BCS460, 3 elements, an aux 120v plug and many other upgrades. As with all products it comes down to 1) if you are a diy'er and 2) if you are proficient in the subject matter. 3) how good you are at aquiring parts at a good cost. I'm a diehard diy'er and I have an electrical engineering degree. I'd rather build than brew, but at the same time I was building I still had my previous propane/cooler system I could brew on.

 

[CurlyShemp]

I built my rims panel based on theelectricbrewery and spent quite a bit less than 1200$. Mine has a BCS460, 3 elements, an aux 120v plug and many other upgrades. As with all products it comes down to 1) if you are a diy'er and 2) if you are proficient in the subject matter. 3) how good you are at aquiring parts at a good cost. I'm a diehard diy'er and I have an electrical engineering degree. I'd rather build than brew, but at the same time I was building I still had my previous propane/cooler system I could brew on.

In the spirit of the thread, how much did you spend? Roughly, don't want a full breakdown. I've been looking at this panel myself, but it's very expensive. I haven't broken it down, but the components seem pricey on their own too.

And theelectricbrewery charges $700 for assembly. $2100 fully assembled and tested. Looking at the panel, there is clearly a lot of work that goes into it. And looking at my previous solder jobs, I question my ability to properly and safely assemble it. This isn't a bookshelf, it's equipment that could be fatal if done incorrectly.

 

[jusware]

I spent a year budgetting 100$ per month on my brewery and beer supplies. I've tried to figure it out before and came out around 800$ (breakdown below). Even though I built it with 3 elements, I only use 2 because I don't use a HLT. I also put in an 120v Aux which I haven't used yet .. possibly for a future grain mill or hop dropper. Breakers are optional .. troll the forums and make your own decision. Voltmeter I wouldn't bother with again to be quite honest.

The only soldering was the probe wires onto the xlrs .. and its very easy. A little soldering tip .. 1) melt solder onto post 2) lay wire on top of solder 3) touch post with soldering iron .. done. You are right, electricity can kill .. if you don't feel comfortable building it .. find someone else who can .. and likes beer

PS: The forum doesn't like 18 megapixel pictures .. I'll take new ones and upload later in the week.

200$ BCS
200$ Enclosure 20x20x8
3 dssrs, 2 contactors, ethernet pass through (Free from tycoelectronics)
20$ (2) contactors
75$ (5) breakers [optional]
15$ contact blocks
75$ Voltmeter/Ammeter [if on a budget wouldn't bother with voltmeter]
50$ panel power connectors
10$ xlr panel connectors (got a 4 pack on ebay .. 1 left over)
100$ front panel switchs and lights

 

[aludwig]

Don't forget tools. Unless you already have a bunch of metalworking tools or a friend who does, it's going to cost you. I built an ElectricBrewery-like system because I had access to a lot of freebie industrial components. I didn't account for the extra hole saws, step-bits and chassis punches that it takes to the get the job done. That cost me quite a bit. I am a DIY-er like many here, so I was glad to have an excuse to buy new tools. You just need to budget for them.

One more thing I just remembered. I didn't account for wire. It's not cheap and I needed way more than I thought I would.

 

[Bsquared]

Don't forget tools. Unless you already have a bunch of metalworking tools or a friend who does, it's going to cost you. I built an ElectricBrewery-like system because I had access to a lot of freebie industrial components. I didn't account for the extra hole saws, step-bits and chassis punches that it takes to the get the job done. That cost me quite a bit. I am a DIY-er like many here, so I was glad to have an excuse to buy new tools. You just need to budget for them.

Or you can just take your control panel to a water jet cutting facility and have them cut it on their fancy machine, It would cost about the same as buying all the components to cut the box by hand and will be much cleaner and every thing will be straight...I sure wish I knew this before I cut my control panel.

 

[jusware]

I agree with aludwig above, however if you can find someone with tools that also enjoys beer you can barter for the bits/tools you need. A buddy of mine was having natural gas installed for his build in his garage. The guy doing the work found out it was for a homebrewery and did the work for beer.

 

[cyclogenesis]

Thanks all for the replies... Thinking of just biting the bullet and going for the high gravity solution... I have most of the other parts for the brewery in now and am starting to itch to get started!