Why are carbonator caps so expensive?

[bendavanza]

I don't think the carbonator caps are durable or well made. It's easy for a 2L bottle, empty, with a cap on it to fall, because they are top heavy, and then the cap breaks. I have a cracked one. Another complaint I have is they tend to leak when attached to co2. In other words, they work fine for me to put pressure on a 2L but not to leave hooked up to my gas lines. I have 3 of these things, one is cracked and the other two I am paranoid about now. My local HBS told me they've gone through a few generations of the product due to breakage.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

I'm actually quite surprised that someone has not wrangled a Chinese manufacturer to crank out some knock-offs for pennies per unit. Could probably sell a bunch of them on Ebay at $5.00 each at least.

There is one thing I think we have overlooked and that is product liability. The carbonator caps could potentially fail catastrophically (ie explode under pressure) and cause a personal injury. An expensive lawsuit would be sure to follow. Liability insurance would be a necessity and it would surely bump up the cost more than a little for such a limited production item.

That is an issue I didn't bear in mind, considering the company actually carries some sort of liablilty insurance.

I understand it comes down to supply and demand in its most simplest form, but there is absolutely no competition when it comes to a like product that utilizes the same disconnects creating convenience.

As far as monopolization is concerned, another manufaturer need only make a slight difference to their design to avoid any patent issues. I unno if you can patent an idea, but it seems to me that when there is no competitor (monopoly) that the only supplier can pretty much charge whatever they want for their product. When that price is too high (profit margins are out of bounds) then ultimately they are only hurting themselves because consumers won't want to pay the price for their product.

Of course, a competitor offering a similar product (I mean the same product in essence) it is obvious that someone will have to offer a better price to compete with the original supplier who already has a name in the market, and a product that is trusted and familiar.

My whole point to this thread was that these things are ridiculously expensive. Like I mentioned earlier, unless osme guy is cranking these out one-by-one there is no way they are costing even half ofthe retail price. Any smart business person would be making large volume purchases from supppliers to keep the total cost of each unit to a minimum.

Assuming the mold that makes these things can push out lets say 8 units per injection (which is conservative for how small these pieces are) and there is a 1 minute time/cost per batch, in a 24 run, over 11,000 pieces could be made considering ther is no down time, or material shortages etc...

These would cost next to pennies to make. I guess what I'm getting at is there seems to be some gouging happening in their profit ratio. The only other thing that I can think to take into consideration is the storage of these items if they don't move fast enough. It cost money to store them considering they aren't using a JIT model for production, which could actually lower their cost assuming storage fees are part of their extremely high price.

Having said all of that, I guess it doesn't matter, if no one is going to compete with them, the price isn't going to change.

 

[matthewkbridges]

Assuming the mold that makes these things can push out lets say 8 units per injection (which is conservative for how small these pieces are) and there is a 1 minute time/cost per batch, in a 24 run, over 11,000 pieces could be made considering ther is no down time, or material shortages etc...

I think one of the most overlooked aspects of this thread is the idea of market size. Some people have alluded to it, but let's take a look at some numbers:
The AHA estimates that there are at least 750,000 people who brew at least once a year at home. The AHA itself has 19,000 members.
In my own homebrew club (Covert Hops of Atlanta), I would estimate that about half of the brewers keg. The rest bottle-condition. Of those who keg, most use growlers or bottles that have been counterpressure filled (myself included). This includes people who use beer guns, the stopper-and-racking-cane method, and all other counterpressure methods. Also, let's assume that non-club members will include a lot of ultra-casual homebrewers who are unlikely to pay the expense of a kegging setup for a hobby they indulge in one or twice a year. So, the percentage of keggers will be maybe 25%.

The long and the short of it is there may be a market of maybe 30,000 of these in the US (this number came from the above numbers plus some rectal extraction). While I'm sure it's off (in what direction is anyone's guess), if they can make 11,000 per 24-hours they could pretty much saturate their market in a little over a workweek if they run one shift per day. Also, if you consider that most people who buy these will buy only one, the economics of scale simply aren't there. Even if half of all US homebrewers (casual and serious) buy one each year, then it would only take about 100 eight-hour days to saturate the market based on Schnitzengiggle's numbers. Factor in die-making, tool depreciation, setup-and-teardown time, and all of the other overhead, and something that you only need to make for 100 days a year isn't much of a bargain. If you also account for small-batch shipping, packaging costs (and the time/energy involved with packaging), the numbers only get worse.

I'd love to hear some counter-analysis that shows that there is a much larger market than this, but if there isn't, you can forget an economy of significant scale.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

I am pretty sure this thing is two molded parts actually. There is the outer cap itself, and an inner molded insert that houses the poppet. I don't think there would be a way to mold this thing solid with a spring loaded poppet all in one piece.

 

[the_bird]

There's another factor no one's talked about yet - retail markups. The homebrew shops presumably are going for gross profit margins of 30% - 40% (gross margins - just the sales cost of a good related to how much you paid for it, not including salaries or electricity or marketing or any other overhead). Figure that a $20 CC, they're probably paying $12 or $13 for it, at most.

Figure as well - let's say you get the manufacturing and packaging down - how are you going to sell them? Not sure how the distribution models work, I *think* there are a couple of big distributors that sell most products to the shops. You've either got to convince a distributor to carry your version of the same product they already sell, or convince hundreds of stores around the country to do the same.

And what's your selling point? What's the marketing angle?

"We'll sell it for $15, instead of $20"?

I just don't see it making any sense to try and shoehorn in on this.

1. It's a tiny market and inherently limited (maybe 30k potential customers, maybe a few more, but very limited repeat sales; you buy one and you're good)

2. All of the costs of the mold-making and other manufacturing costs

3. If you're trying to compete on price, you're probably looking at selling these to the retailers for maybe $10 a pop. Doesn't leave a lot of room for margin expansion.

And, there's no real potential for scale. You aren't going to start selling these more broadly unless you figure a way to 86 the need for a full CO2 tank. Maybe if you could create carbonated beverages using a simple, CC-like device that used the CO2 chargers or a simple regulator, you could sell to the health-food market. As currently conceived, CCs require that you have a full kegging setup, which basically limits you to *us* as the entire end market.

And... if you're right, and they ARE selling these way over cost... the original manufacturer is going to knock you on your ass, because they've already paid all the setup costs and gotten the distribution arrangements and done all that hard work. They're in a much better position to undercut YOU on cost, because their costs have mostly already been paid.

This feels like the Dragon's Den....

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

I am confused on this product. Is it used to keep the carbonation in beer that has already been carbed and put into a 2L, or is it used to carb uncarbed beer put into a 2L?

 

[IffyG]

You can use it for both purposes. I bought mine to carb up a pumpkin beer that wasn't quite ready when a friend was in town and now I use it to keep beer carbed.

 

[the_bird]

I am confused on this product. Is it used to keep the carbonation in beer that has already been carbed and put into a 2L, or is it used to carb uncarbed beer put into a 2L?

Mostly to maintain carbonation on already-carbed beer (in lieu of filling a growler), but they can also be used to carbonate other beverages.

 

[Brewdouche-RuBrew]

Just keep your eyes peeled. I bought 3 of them 1 at a time for about $8 each with shipping. There awesome for early testing beer. I use a 1 liter pop bottle to samlpe my 15 gallon batches before I rack and carbonate it all to see if I need to make any adjustments.

Still cheaper than getting a 2 1/2 corny till I find one cheap.

 

[Catt22]

I think one of the most overlooked aspects of this thread is the idea of market size. Some people have alluded to it, but let's take a look at some numbers:
The AHA estimates that there are at least 750,000 people who brew at least once a year at home. The AHA itself has 19,000 members.
In my own homebrew club (Covert Hops of Atlanta), I would estimate that about half of the brewers keg. The rest bottle-condition. Of those who keg, most use growlers or bottles that have been counterpressure filled (myself included). This includes people who use beer guns, the stopper-and-racking-cane method, and all other counterpressure methods. Also, let's assume that non-club members will include a lot of ultra-casual homebrewers who are unlikely to pay the expense of a kegging setup for a hobby they indulge in one or twice a year. So, the percentage of keggers will be maybe 25%.

The long and the short of it is there may be a market of maybe 30,000 of these in the US (this number came from the above numbers plus some rectal extraction). While I'm sure it's off (in what direction is anyone's guess), if they can make 11,000 per 24-hours they could pretty much saturate their market in a little over a workweek if they run one shift per day. Also, if you consider that most people who buy these will buy only one, the economics of scale simply aren't there. Even if half of all US homebrewers (casual and serious) buy one each year, then it would only take about 100 eight-hour days to saturate the market based on Schnitzengiggle's numbers. Factor in die-making, tool depreciation, setup-and-teardown time, and all of the other overhead, and something that you only need to make for 100 days a year isn't much of a bargain. If you also account for small-batch shipping, packaging costs (and the time/energy involved with packaging), the numbers only get worse.

I'd love to hear some counter-analysis that shows that there is a much larger market than this, but if there isn't, you can forget an economy of significant scale.

The above has it nailed. Home brewers are a very small market. Only a fraction of that small market would have the required CO2 equipment and some minority of those may make a one time purchase of a carbonator cap. Surely there would be some repeat customers, but they will be relatively few and far between.

 

[Catt22]

I don't think the carbonator caps are durable or well made. It's easy for a 2L bottle, empty, with a cap on it to fall, because they are top heavy, and then the cap breaks. I have a cracked one. Another complaint I have is they tend to leak when attached to co2. In other words, they work fine for me to put pressure on a 2L but not to leave hooked up to my gas lines. I have 3 of these things, one is cracked and the other two I am paranoid about now. My local HBS told me they've gone through a few generations of the product due to breakage.

Dunno, I've been using the same two for several years and have dropped the 2 liter bottles more than a few times without damaging them. A leaking carbonator cap is usually caused by a worn O-ring. Just like with a keg post, you need to replace the O-rings occasionally and lubing the O-rings really helps minimize the wear and tear.

 

[remilard]

http://www.brewcat.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=hbps2&Product_Code=Carbonator

This is a local store that sells them for $10.95. I don't know how they can do that when almost everyone else is at $20 but I've bought a few there.

 

[rawlus]

its a nice little tool when you need it for $20. its not essential enough for me to take the time and effort to DIY one actually... my DIY schedule would be occupied by things of far more importance/necessity and where my potential cost savings would be far greater.

 

[cheese]

Have you tried the carbonation caps from crankandstein?


I've bought them but didn't have the chance to use them yet

 

[KevinM]

We got a lot of input from people who know the manufacturing angle at least, so a good part about mold cost and direct running costs, if not the calculation of overhead and how that determines into things. I think the limited market really is the determining factor.
I expect to use it mostly for carbonating water and doing beer tests. I knew about building my own but just figured I'd buy one since it'd be easier. Why would I need more than that? I'll just be using it to carbonate water&soda and the occasional test beer.

Like it was earlier said, the only people who will use it are people who have a co2 tank and are likely kegging anyways and just get one for general use. Most other people will have gotten a seltzer bottle for carbonated water, which also isn't in high demand. Or a Sodastream which was designed for easy use for the public and is easily acquired at a local store, usually a bed bath & beyond.

Before getting into beer, I was considering getting one of the sodastreams as opposed to trying to get a co2 tank and build an adapter. The effort was going to be more of a pain to me than a preset machine. Even recently, I was trying to decide on it all, comparative pricing and appliance matching, and it was only the recent sales that made me decide to pick up a kegging kit and the cap. I still don't have any use for the kegs at the moment since I'd have to get something to chill them.

Anyways, disgression aside, demand would still likely be higher for a sodastream than the carbonator cap and keg kit.

 

[Brewdouche-RuBrew]

http://www.brewcat.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=hbps2&Product_Code=Carbonator

This is a local store that sells them for $10.95. I don't know how they can do that when almost everyone else is at $20 but I've bought a few there.

awesome... gonna order 2 more

 

[BBBF]

Also, if you consider that most people who buy these will buy only one

I think the price has a lot to do with that. If they were cheaper, I'd buy several, but for $20 I'll DIY. I completely agree with everyone who has commented on the cost to make a mold. And the market is small, but it doesn't have to be. How many brewers have kids and would be willing to make them soda, but do not want to mess up their kegs? Or get people to make a flat wine sparkling? People are buying those soda stream things, so what if you packaged it with one of the paintball kits and compete with them.

 

[samc]

Weird thread for sure. People will go into a restaurant or bar and pay $4-$8 for a beer that they can brew at home for $.35 but they will complain about paying $20 for something they can use for the next 20 years.

I used to get people complaining about my prices when I had a retail/wholesale service business. I used to tell them to get lost and find someone who gave a #$)#$.

 

[Catt22]

Weird thread for sure. People will go into a restaurant or bar and pay $4-$8 for a beer that they can brew at home for $.35 but they will complain about paying $20 for something they can use for the next 20 years.

I used to get people complaining about my prices when I had a retail/wholesale service business. I used to tell them to get lost and find someone who gave a #$)#$.

You will know you have priced an item correctly when the customer ******* about the high cost, but buys it anyway. If they don't complain, you aren't charging enough. If they don't buy it, you are charging too much.

 

[the_bird]

Just noticing when I was tooling around on KegCowboy's site that he's selling the Carbonater Caps for only $14 a pop. I'm not in the market myself, but that's quite a bit cheaper than anyone else is selling them for.

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

So when does this patent expire? After that they should come down to the retail price of a 3-piece airlock and an auto-siphon $2-$10 and I will own 10-20 of them...

 

[Bobby_M]

Since when did a Chinese manufacturer give a crap about patent laws?

 

[wired247]

So when does this patent expire? After that they should come down to the retail price of a 3-piece airlock and an auto-siphon $2-$10 and I will own 10-20 of them...

Considering I bought one 17 years ago I'd say the patent has expired already. Whittle them out in your garage to your hearts content.

 

[JKoravos]

They've always been too expensive for me to buy one, but that doesn't mean I don't think they are appropriately priced.

I doubt Liquid Bread is taking much margin out of that product.

 

[JKoravos]

Since when did a Chinese manufacturer give a crap about patent laws?

I think the English word 'patent' translates into Chinese as 'business model'.

 

[wired247]

So when does this patent expire? After that they should come down to the retail price of a 3-piece airlock and an auto-siphon $2-$10 and I will own 10-20 of them...

Its a niche item and the manufacturer and retailers are charging what the market will bear. Consumer cost has nothing to do with cost of production. The patent has probably long expired. That doesnt mean the price goes down unless another manufacturer tools up to make them and they undercut the other supplier and retailers go along.

Bottom line is don't hold your breath.

 

[desertsoilguy]

I purchased two red "Carbonators" that simply don't work properly. They leak C02, the valve is impossible to move, and the fit with the CO2 connector is poor. My friend has two blue "Carbonators" that worked perfectly with the bottles I had. Must be a defect. Anybody else run into this issue?

 

[HopSong]

I asked LB about the differences.. He said it' only the color of the plastic used.

And, I guess, Crankenstein quit making them??? Don't see them on the product page. Possibly, I don't know how to search for them. That's not unusual

 

[ODI3]

U can make a carbonator cap out of a pop bottle cap, gas keg post and a small fitting.

here is an example:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-carbonator-cap-using-gas-post-272900/

 

[OntarioBeerKegs]

Its a niche item and the manufacturer and retailers are charging what the market will bear. Consumer cost has nothing to do with cost of production. The patent has probably long expired. That doesnt mean the price goes down unless another manufacturer tools up to make them and they undercut the other supplier and retailers go along.

Bottom line is don't hold your breath.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=5396934.PN.&OS=PN/5396934&RS=PN/5396934