Why are brewing controllers so expensive?

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Back to the idea of a low voltage interface.. Buy the Blichman power controller for $150 and add an Arduino to implement PID + user interface...
Granted, that’s what the Brew Commander gives you, but you could probably save money by rolling your own this way

 

[doug293cz]

Back to the idea of a low voltage interface.. Buy the Blichman power controller for $150 and add an Arduino to implement PID + user interface...
Granted, that’s what the Brew Commander gives you, but you could probably save money by rolling your own this way

You'd have to add a stepper or servo motor to turn the knob to interface that controller with any type of computer control. Much easier ways to get the functionality than doing this.

Brew on

 

[Argyll Gargoyle]

I haven’t looked at that product too closely, but they allow up to 4 extra SSRs to be connected to that unit. I am guessing that the control wire that runs between housings is just the low voltage DC input to the SSR — if so, you would replace that connection with a control line from the Arduino controller.

 

[Jayjay1976]

If you've got the skill, you can save money by building one yourself. Not knocking the full professional-level panel jobs that others here like to build, they are definitely better for the added investment, but a lot of these guys are engineers in their day jobs and revel in the details.

 

[doug293cz]

I found this, which is why I went for it, worst, Im out the $150, havent gotten to try it yet, but I find his videos to be helpful and pretty well through out:

I disagree with Brian about its suitability for controlling a mash temp. PID's and EZBoils (other than the DSPR1) automatically adjust power output to maintain temperature. They will work without having to fine tune them for different volumes. This Blichmann controller will have to be manually tuned for each volume you use it with, and you will have to babysit it - making fine adjustments manually - in order to keep a relatively constant temperature. The setting required will be different for different mash volumes.

If you want to use it just to bring water up to temp, mash in, insulate, and then live with any temp drop over the mash time, it will work fine. It's the electric equivalent of a gas burner. It really offers no automation/automatic control at all.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I haven’t looked at that product too closely, but they allow up to 4 extra SSRs to be connected to that unit. I am guessing that the control wire that runs between housings is just the low voltage DC input to the SSR — if so, you would replace that connection with a control line from the Arduino controller.

In that case, you are using the Arduino, etc. to actually do the PWM. You would be pretty much bypassing the PWM provided by the controller itself. And, if you are willing to do that level of hack, might as well just DIY something.

The expandability of this is only useful for controlling multiple elements in a single vessel, since you cannot independently set the power level for the different elements being controlled.

Brew on

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

When going to 240V, you usually go with currents in 30A - 60A range, rather than 15A - 20A.
Brew on

And there are local electrical codes determining how much load a 240V circuit can load.

Unless a licensed electrician, I'd recommend consulting one. AC and and will kill. DC gives a h*ll of a jolt, but AC will grab and not let go (due to switching between + and -)

With electricity a second chance is normally not an option. Be careful!

Properly done, electricity is safe. Think about our stoves, our dryers, etc. However, do something dumb and even the safest electrical product can become dangerous. Drop a plugged in toaster or radio into a tub or water. NO! I'm not recommending one do, I'm asking the reader to visualize.

Perhaps the following is useful?

www.theelectricbrewery.com

 

[BrunDog]

Everyone has a different definition of cost and expense. If you place a value on your time, then designing, building, testing, and modifying your own build doesn't really make economic sense. If you value the learning and enjoy the process, or don't value the opportunity cost of your time, then it makes sense to build your own. I would suggest always building for the future though - nothing worse than a dead-end path where you have to dump your old stuff and invest again from zero (for example, transitioning from BIAB to multi-vessel).

 

[jdudek]

I’ve asked myself the same question. I understand labor safety More expensive parts etc etc. I dont see how that justifies a 3.5x price increase from 120 to 240. I built a 120V controller. I’ve explored upgrading it to 240V and the extra components I need to buy totaled less than $75 from Auber. Need an extra contactor, bigger SSR bigger wires and and different Inlets/outlets. I don’t see where the extra $500 in the clawhammer example is coming from.

 

[Bobby_M]

Especially 240v controllers.

Take for example:

* Inkbird's IPB-26 (which I'd expect to have smaller margins than other brands) is $600
* SS Brewtech's is also $600.
* Clawhammer's 120v is $199. The 240v is a whopping $500 more at $700

A 40a SSR is ~$15. An ITC-100VH for controller the SSR is ~$25 (I know that SS Brewtech use a much more expensive Omron PID controller)

Throw in a case, a couple buttons, a temp prob... what am I missing?

For starters, profit margin after overhead. As a business owner, it is very obvious.

The components get more expensive when you go to 240v becaude the amperage also goes up to 30 amps. Heat sinks are no longer optional. Wire gauge goes up. Just the input and output wires and plugs are 3x the cost of 120v units. For units that pull 120v off the 240v input, such as for pump outputs, now require fuses or a circuit breaker.

Your list does leave off two very capable units in the moderate price point. The BrewCommander and the Auber Cube.

Controllers in that area are about $170 in parts. At my typical labor rate, I would have to charge about $200 to build it.

 

[augiedoggy]

I’ve asked myself the same question. I understand labor safety More expensive parts etc etc. I dont see how that justifies a 3.5x price increase from 120 to 240. I built a 120V controller. I’ve explored upgrading it to 240V and the extra components I need to buy totaled less than $75 from Auber. Need an extra contactor, bigger SSR bigger wires and and different Inlets/outlets. I don’t see where the extra $500 in the clawhammer example is coming from.

one contributing factor is also because thats what they can get away with charging until competition brings prices down. its the same setup as gfci breakers vs more commonly sold spa panels with them. or epiepens

 

[Bobby_M]

Exactly. The cube was 479 until the commander came out and now the cube is competitve under 400 bucks with the upgraded dspr310.

 

[golfindia]

This box cost less than $150 in parts. However, I have a large round column end mill with 3 axis DROs and lots of tooling. I can easily drill precise big holes and machine openings exactly where I want them, drill and tap screw holes.... but there's hundreds of $$ in tooling in the background to make that happen that most people just don't have. That's a large part of what you're paying for in commercial units.

The extra "fluff" that everyone likes (lights, labeling, buzzers, E-stop and keyed switches) also adds $$. R&D also costs money. My own R&D is free....

 

[Bad Bubba]

I have to say too many people look at the cost of components without looking at other costs that have to be covered in order to be in business. Things like building rent, utilities, marketing, advertising, design and development cost. Not to mention things like product liability insurance, general liability insurance, etc. Then start adding things like labor, tools, payroll taxes, etc. Then you have the client headache items, product support, warranty, returns, damaged goods, etc. Then cost of money for inventory, maintaining a website, accounting. And at the end of the day the owner would like to have enough money left over for a happy meal.

I have run companies and spent many years consulting with businesses on how to be profitable and in my experience component cost is just a part of the total cost especially when you are out of the mass production part of the market which I believe is the case with brew controllers.

Certainly you can save money by building your own, but you also do not have the same expense structure as the commercial controllers.

 

[jdudek]

I have to say too many people look at the cost of components without looking at other costs that have to be covered in order to be in business. Things like building rent, utilities, marketing, advertising, design and development cost. Not to mention things like product liability insurance, general liability insurance, etc. Then start adding things like labor, tools, payroll taxes, etc. Then you have the client headache items, product support, warranty, returns, damaged goods, etc. Then cost of money for inventory, maintaining a website, accounting. And at the end of the day the owner would like to have enough money left over for a happy meal.

I have run companies and spent many years consulting with businesses on how to be profitable and in my experience component cost is just a part of the total cost especially when you are out of the mass production part of the market which I believe is the case with brew controllers.

Certainly you can save money by building your own, but you also do not have the same expense structure as the commercial controllers.

Point taken. However the question was about why the same vendor sells a 120v controller for 200 and a similar 240v controller for 600. The business overhead does not explain the difference in price.

 

[Bad Bubba]

Point taken. However the question was about why the same vendor sells a 120v controller for 200 and a similar 240v controller for 600. The business overhead does not explain the difference in price.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I do not believe it was his original question - His question was Why Controllers are so expensive - especially 240V ones. He finished his original post with

A 40a SSR is ~$15. An ITC-100VH for controller the SSR is ~$25 (I know that SS Brewtech use a much more expensive Omron PID controller)

Throw in a case, a couple buttons, a temp prob... what am I missing?

Which is the part I was addressing in my post. As far as the differences between 120V and 240V, I have no direct knowledge. I do know that for my panel on my home a 120V GFCI breaker costs $40 and for the same panel a 240V GFCI breaker costs $140 so I am assuming there is some significant difference in costs. I may be wrong.-

 

[jdudek]

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I do not believe it was his original question - His question was Why Controllers are so expensive - especially 240V ones. He finished his original post with

fair enough. I suppose I understood the question to be why the 240V are so much more than the 120V, and it's something I've asked myself as well. No question that running a business is loaded with cost the DIYer can hardly imagine, as you pointed out.

 

[augiedoggy]

Point taken. However the question was about why the same vendor sells a 120v controller for 200 and a similar 240v controller for 600. The business overhead does not explain the difference in price.

Especially in the cases where they are building them out of a garage or have no actual liability insurance to speak of.. my earlier comments were about assembled control panels (and mostly the same copied designs at that) built out of off the shelf components... I can see custom made components that require actual development and designwork costing more. Also most of these control panels are being made or sold by companies already in existence that sell other products as well.. This shouldnt require them to charge $1000 for something build out of $200 in hardware in 2-3 hours

 

[Bobby_M]

It's easy enough to cut out all the speculation about material costs and overhead and literally just say they cost exactly what people are willing to pay for them as with any other product in the market. If anyone thinks there's profit to be made by forming a company and selling your cheaper version of a controller, go for it.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's easy enough to cut out all the speculation about material costs and overhead and literally just say they cost exactly what people are willing to pay for them as with any other product in the market. If anyone thinks there's profit to be made by forming a company and selling your cheaper version of a controller, go for it.

Or better yet, build your own as many here do. Then you have the advantage of not worrying about support from the manufacturer when something fails down the road or you want to make a change or upgrade.

 

[jdudek]

they cost exactly what people are willing to pay for them as with any other product in the market.

And maybe that’s all there is to it. Demand. I imagine the demand for 240V is much higher than 120V. Higher demand commands a higher price, regardless of the product.

 

[augiedoggy]

Certainly you can save money by building your own, but you also do not have the same expense structure as the commercial controllers.

Dont forget also that thse companies with these expenses are certainly buying the components in bulk and often paying much less in wholesale prices for the components than the average consumer. As a field engineer who installs and services large machinery I have an idea of what kind of markups are often involved. anyone whos replaced thier own blower motor on thier furnace for example thats sourced a replacement online instead of thier local furnace business will usually have an idea what Im talking about... I'm not saying your points arent valid but I am pointing out there are other advantages these business's have which can lower their overall costs as well and as mentioned above most were already covering thier overhead with other homebrewing products before they started offering these control panels.

To add to Bobbys point, Many businesses will take advantage for higher profit if they can over the fair and ethical choice and justify it in all sorts of ways.
Case in point The AC stopped working on my truck.. local shop quoted me $900 to repair stating the compressor needed to be replaced.. quick you tube search showed that the clutches often wear out and fail and that if it spins easily by hand but doesnt engage than a $40 clutch kit is needed.. took me about 2.5 hrs in the driveway yesterday but my AC now blows cold air and it cost me about $50 including the new clips for my bumper cover since I wanted to remove and replace it while doing the job. aparently replacing the clutch is something many shops forgo in favor of higher profit compressor replacement jobs.

 

[Beermeister32]

Years ago I worked for a company building electric controllers for a different industry. These were limited production units, some custom. They were priced at what the market would bear. Prices (like water) seek their own level. Business 101...

 

[Bobby_M]

took me about 2.5 hrs in the driveway yesterday but my AC now blows cold air and it cost me about $50 including the new clips for my bumper cover since I wanted to remove and replace it while doing the job. aparently replacing the clutch is something many shops forgo in favor of higher profit compressor replacement jobs.

No matter what the job, there are going to be "doers" and whatever its called when you never try figuring stuff out for yourself so you're always going to be hustled. Even with no real spare time on my hands, I rarely call in the pros. I just fixed my 20 year old central AC twice in 2 weeks. First the run capacitor for the fan went out. A ride to the plumbing supply and $12 and I'm back up and running. More recently we had the big tropical storm and a long brownout burned up the contacts in the contactor so it was starting up very intermittently. It was almost midnight when I figured out what was happening and instead of waiting for the next day to buy an new one, I just polished the contacts clean and it's running like a clock now. I saved the $175 minimum HVAC service call twice, not to mention the $80 marked up parts and I probably would have needed to wait a few days for someone to show up. I always say, the only thing I won't try to DIY are root canals and colonoscopies.

 

[Gruel]

Interesting thread.
I don't quite understand the posts saying that with going from 120V to 240V you are also going to higher amperage (and that drives up the price). To me the main point of using 240V is double the power for the same amperage, same wire cross section, same wire power losses. Of course you could go to a 30A breaker instead of 20A (and run the wires that go with it), but nobody forces you to.

 

[Beermeister32]

Another thing to keep in mind is that some 240 volt controllers are set up as two separate 120 volt controllers - remember household 120 VAC lines used to create 240 volts are 180 out of phase with each other so the composite voltage is 240 VAC (two 120 volt legs.) So depending on the design, you could conceivably be running two 120 volt controllers internally. So it isn't always a matter of running "higher voltage" components of similar price ranges. Keep in mind, there are two out of phase lines you are controlling, and there can sometimes be doubling of the power outputs, which doubles the higher priced pieces of the controller. It just depends on how the designer has configured the power control unit.

 

[augiedoggy]

No matter what the job, there are going to be "doers" and whatever its called when you never try figuring stuff out for yourself so you're always going to be hustled. Even with no real spare time on my hands, I rarely call in the pros. I just fixed my 20 year old central AC twice in 2 weeks. First the run capacitor for the fan went out. A ride to the plumbing supply and $12 and I'm back up and running. More recently we had the big tropical storm and a long brownout burned up the contacts in the contactor so it was starting up very intermittently. It was almost midnight when I figured out what was happening and instead of waiting for the next day to buy an new one, I just polished the contacts clean and it's running like a clock now. I saved the $175 minimum HVAC service call twice, not to mention the $80 marked up parts and I probably would have needed to wait a few days for someone to show up. I always say, the only thing I won't try to DIY are root canals and colonoscopies.

Ive done a lot of filing and polishing contactor contacts in my life.. I am exactly the same way, couldnt afford to call in the pros in most cases for a very long time so I always try to do it myself which is whats responsible for the skills I acquired as a kid for my career. I restored an old stingray myself, built and engine from a bare block, replaced the interior, body work and paint all from reading and videos for guidance, and all for under 9k including the cost of the car. Same deal at the brewpub, Our budget was small so the pros were old called for things the local inspectors would not allow us to do like plumbing and electrical ironically but we did everything else we could including refinishing floors, building walkins, Bar, brewing platform, installing tin ceilings and even all the tvs and many kitchen appliances had to be repaired by myself to work as broken incomplete appliances sell dirt cheap at auction and are free at the recycling drop off location. With most project completions I find myself more confident to tackle the next. So if someone reading this is aprehensive about building thier own brewing setup or panel, keep in mind its not rocket science, all you need is a little money and the ability to pay attention to what your doing so you do it safely, theres are lots of resources here to help you along the way. You may just learn some skills that change your life. .

 

[augiedoggy]

Another thing to keep in mind is that some 240 volt controllers are set up as two separate 120 volt controllers - remember household 120 VAC lines used to create 240 volts are 180 out of phase with each other so the composite voltage is 240 VAC (two 120 volt legs.) So depending on the design, you could conceivably be running two 120 volt controllers internally. So it isn't always a matter of running "higher voltage" components of similar price ranges. Keep in mind, there are two out of phase lines you are controlling, and there can sometimes be doubling of the power outputs, which doubles the higher priced pieces of the controller. It just depends on how the designer has configured the power control unit.

True but in the least you want 240v breakers where the poles are tied together mechanically in some fashion to prevent brown out type situations. I thing for many, Much of the cost comes with making the design cosmetically appealing. The pic of my old panel in my avatar photo was after I literally replaced the entire face of my first attemt that while functional was pretty ugly looking, At first these things didnt matter much to me but then I made the mistake of spending too much time here...

 

[BrunDog]

Ha! I live in FL and learned to keep capacitors and contactors in stock... even replacing them prophylactically. Contactor for a 5 ton condensor unit is literally $11 on Amazon... and is the some one many people use in their panels!

 

[Scout]

Interesting thread.
I don't quite understand the posts saying that with going from 120V to 240V you are also going to higher amperage (and that drives up the price). To me the main point of using 240V is double the power for the same amperage, same wire cross section, same wire power losses. Of course you could go to a 30A breaker instead of 20A (and run the wires that go with it), but nobody forces you to.

Do the math, a 2000 watt 120v element is 16.6 amps, a 5500 watt 240v element is 22.9 amps. (volts times amps equals watts)