Who’s still brewing Belgian-style ales and what’s your favorite recipe?

[SRJHops]

Question for those of you who add syrup in the fermented. I've always added it with 10 minutes left in the boil but was going to try adding it in the fermenter and see if I notice a difference. I almost always start my fermentation around 64 and slowly ramp to 70 as the OG drops, at what point do you typically add your syrup? Do you care about the temp difference?

Please do report back on this if you give it a go. Could I ask what the goal/purpose of adding sugar to the fermenter is? More residual flavor? I'd think it would still all ferment out?

I actually add my sugars and syrups at first wort. The hot wort dissolves it nicely, and I don't have to mess around with stirring during the last 10 and worrying it's sticking to the bottom. I am also usually doing a lot of other stuff at 10, such as yeast nutrients and dropping in the chiller.

 

[Jhedrick83]

Please do report back on this if you give it a go. Could I ask what the goal/purpose of adding sugar to the fermenter is? More residual flavor? I'd think it would still all ferment out?

I actually add my sugars and syrups at first wort. The hot wort dissolves it nicely, and I don't have to mess around with stirring during the last 10 and worrying it's sticking to the bottom. I am also usually doing a lot of other stuff at 10, such as yeast nutrients and dropping in the chiller.

I've seen a lot of debate over how flavor may/may not change depending on when you add the syrup and the stress level on the yeast. So, I figure the best way to find out for myself is do it myself.

 

[SRJHops]

I've seen a lot of debate over how flavor may/may not change depending on when you add the syrup and the stress level on the yeast. So, I figure the best way to find out for myself is do it myself.

Cool. I'm in the big pitch camp for now, as opposed to stressing the yeast. But I am always interested in experiments and learning new techniques.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

One of the great things about Belgian beers is the simplicity of the recipes
Usually minimal hops and most of the unique flavors come from the yeast.

By stressing the yeast one can often times get more of the esters and phenols that make the Belgian beers get those unique flavors.
also the temperature that one chooses to ferment at can bring out those flavor compounds as well.

Anyone that enjoys brewing and drinking Belgian beers should take the time to read Brew Like a Monk.

 

[SRJHops]

One of the great things about Belgian beers is the simplicity of the recipes
Usually minimal hops and most of the unique flavors come from the yeast.

By stressing the yeast one can often times get more of the esters and phenols that make the Belgian beers get those unique flavors.
also the temperature that one chooses to ferment at can bring out those flavor compounds as well.

Anyone that enjoys brewing and drinking Belgian beers should take the time to read Brew Like a Monk.

Great book. Love the charts about how different temperatures create different flavors from the various yeast strains.

I'm still fiddling around with temps. Love to hear what others are doing. My current procedure is to pitch at the low end of the yeast strain range, then move mid range on Day 2, then to the top of the range on Day 4. Then finish up and hold 5 degrees over the top of the range (usually mid 80's) until SG/FG is unchanged for 3 days. But there is a lot to experiment with...

From my reading, there are several ways to influence development of the good esters and phenols:

1. Under pitch
2. Over pitch (or healthy pitch, in my thinking)
3. Dial up or down the temp

Given that some Belgian yeasts (looking at you Dupont) tend to stall, seems to me that over pitching is a much safer bet. Then dial up the temp if you want both the phenols and the fruit. At least that's working for me.

 

[shoreman]

I think it helps to stick it out with one yeast for a while if you can. I settled a while ago on Ardennes and could dial in the flavor depending on the time of year. I like to brew with the seasons.

I’ve been using more dry yeast in the past couple years, and Abbaye seems to be one that I’m settling on as a next yeast to figure out.

 

[jcav]

I love brewing Belgian doubles, triples, pales/blonde ales. I also love Belgian Wit. I have a few recipes that I really like and I am open to trying new ones as well. I also love to drink Trappist Ales with the proper glass from the brewery. Just something I really get into.

John

 

[CascadesBrewer]

1. Under pitch
2. Over pitch (or healthy pitch, in my thinking)
3. Dial up or down the temp

Open fermenting is supposed to increase ester production while reducing fusel alcohols. I tried open fermenting a recent Quad. Honestly, it is one of the best beers I have every drank, but it is hard to say if the open fermentation played any role. I am trying to let the beer get some age. The quad was part of an odd club competition, and it won 1st in both the judges scoring and the open "people's choice".

If you have 5 hours to kill, this playlist from Escarpment Labs is a wealth of information. I have read a lot on yeast, and these videos (and some of the others on their channel) changed the way I think about some aspects of fermentation. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL552d9ljGZG20bkvV7pTjFiDzvnbCGFFj

The guys at Escarpment Labs are not fans of the idea of stressing yeast to try to drive flavors. I think I agree. I find that I can use temperature to get the flavors out of yeasts like WLP530 and WLP565. One time I under pitched WLP530, and it stalled after 2 week (though some heat and a swirl got it going again).

 

[SRJHops]

Open fermenting is supposed to increase ester production while reducing fusel alcohols. I tried open fermenting a recent Quad. Honestly, it is one of the best beers I have every drank, but it is hard to say if the open fermentation played any role. I am trying to let the beer get some age. The quad was part of an odd club competition, and it won 1st in both the judges scoring and the open "people's choice".

If you have 5 hours to kill, this playlist from Escarpment Labs is a wealth of information. I have read a lot on yeast, and these videos (and some of the others on their channel) changed the way I think about some aspects of fermentation. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL552d9ljGZG20bkvV7pTjFiDzvnbCGFFj

The guys at Escarpment Labs are not fans of the idea of stressing yeast to try to drive flavors. I think I agree. I find that I can use temperature to get the flavors out of yeasts like WLP530 and WLP565. One time I under pitched WLP530, and it stalled after 2 week (though some heat and a swirl got it going again).

Very interesting. I would love to know the "science" behind the open fermentation and why it helps. I know it's been done for centuries, but it also seems so counter to what we've been told about sanitation and oxidation and such. Do we even need airlocks?!

Will add those videos to my watchlist - thanks!

How high have you fermented? I've been too chicken to go into the 90's...

 

[jtgoral]

I will be brewing a 5.5 gallon batch of Patersbier today... Using BE-134 dry yeast.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

How high have you fermented? I've been too chicken to go into the 90's...

Usually just in the 75F to 80F range for Saison and Trappist yeasts. I am curious to experiment more. I brewed a recent Tripel with M-31 Tripel split with fermentation control vs ambient. The batch at ambient pushed itself up to around 78F during active fermentation and has some off putting fusel characters. The batch fermented in the mid to upper 60F's is very good.

 

[SRJHops]

Usually just in the 75F to 80F range for Saison and Trappist yeasts. I am curious to experiment more. I brewed a recent Tripel with M-31 Tripel split with fermentation control vs ambient. The batch at ambient pushed itself up to around 78F during active fermentation and has some off putting fusel characters. The batch fermented in the mid to upper 60F's is very good.

Yeah, it's those fusels that always have me worried. I read about how many people push into the 90's, but I feel like that's just inviting the fusels...

Thanks to this thread I also just looked up the Abbaye yeast. I was interested to read that fermenting it lower is better for the darker Belgians, in order to get the darker fruit (raisins, etc) flavors. I was actually planning my same fermentation temp for my upcoming quad and push it into the 80's, but now thinking maybe just keep it lower and within the yeast range. I think I should reference those yeast ferm temps in Brew Like a Monk again. Maybe ferment lower for darker Belgians and higher for lighter ones?

 

[Komodo]

Please do report back on this if you give it a go. Could I ask what the goal/purpose of adding sugar to the fermenter is? More residual flavor? I'd think it would still all ferment out?

I actually add my sugars and syrups at first wort. The hot wort dissolves it nicely, and I don't have to mess around with stirring during the last 10 and worrying it's sticking to the bottom. I am also usually doing a lot of other stuff at 10, such as yeast nutrients and dropping in the chiller.

Think of the sugar addition as a bowl of ice cream for dessert. It’s super easy for the yeast to consume, and they likely won’t leave any if it unfinished. Think of your fermentable wort as the dinner. I add the sugar addition just after the main ferment seems to slow, so maybe 3 days or so. This lets the yeast concentrate on your wort, and then finish real strong after the addition. As far as changes in taste when added at the boil vs later, I don’t know but would guess it’s negligible. If anything, maybe sweeter added at the boil if everything wasn’t completely fermented.

 

[SRJHops]

Think of the sugar addition as a bowl of ice cream for dessert. It’s super easy for the yeast to consume, and they likely won’t leave any if it unfinished. Think of your fermentable wort as the dinner. I add the sugar addition just after the main ferment seems to slow, so maybe 3 days or so. This lets the yeast concentrate on your wort, and then finish real strong after the addition. As far as changes in taste when added at the boil vs later, I don’t know but would guess it’s negligible. If anything, maybe sweeter added at the boil if everything wasn’t completely fermented.

If I follow, it has to do with what sugars the yeast is working on and in what order. Easier for the yeast to eat the simple sugars, so they will do those first if available.

So the question, then, is does this improve the taste or some important aspect of the beer? Otherwise I don't see the point of adding sugar to the fermenter. Or even during the boil, for that matter. Seems easiest to add it at first wort to me...

My Belgians all finish dry. I think if I wanted them sweeter I would increase the mash temp and/or skip the sugar addition altogether.

 

[Komodo]

Yeast may poop out before everything is done. Adding it after main ferment is mostly complete ensures complete ferment, with the dryness. I think this may be discussed in Brew Like a Monk, I’d have to read it again.

Regarding the temp discussion, I’ve gone mid-80s and it was one of the best beers I’ve made. I’ll have to check my brew program to see what yeast it was.

 

[TheMadKing]

Intentionally pushing yeast to maximize yeast expression is my entire problem with American interpretations of belgian ales.

Balance needs to be the absolute #1 priority. You should be able to distinctly taste malt, hop bitterness, and esters with none dominating the other

It's incredibly difficult to achieve so focusing on a single recipe and yeast strain and playing with the levels to get it balanced right is key.

 

[SRJHops]

Yeast may poop out before everything is done. Adding it after main ferment is mostly complete ensures complete ferment, with the dryness. I think this may be discussed in Brew Like a Monk, I’d have to read it again.

Regarding the temp discussion, I’ve gone mid-80s and it was one of the best beers I’ve made. I’ll have to check my brew program to see what yeast it was.

Cool. If that is the main reason, then I'd probably never do it - at least with my current procedures (lots of yeast and sugar). My latest Saison is sitting at .997 SG, so I'd say fermentation is mostly complete!

 

[SRJHops]

Intentionally pushing yeast to maximize yeast expression is my entire problem with American interpretations of belgian ales.

Balance needs to be the absolute #1 priority. You should be able to distinctly taste malt, hop bitterness, and esters with none dominating the other

It's incredibly difficult to achieve so focusing on a single recipe and yeast strain and playing with the levels to get it balanced right is key.

I won't argue, because you are right about balance, and there seem to be a lot of others who have that same opinion. With that said, I am personally more interested in the flavors I can get from the yeast. Perhaps it's the former NEIPA brewer in me, but I love big bold flavors. That does not mean my beers are to style, but they do seem to stand out -- and people (and local judges) seem to like them.

 

[hamachi]

My absolute favorite I’ve ever had was a Westvleteren 8.

Nice. I haven't had the opportunity to taste the real thing, but just brewed up a Westvleteren 8 clone on Sunday based on a recipe from the Candi Syrup site. I'm using WLP530, and it's good that I left a lot of headspace in my fermenter because the krausen is huge.

I have brewed several Belgian wits and Trappist-style ales, and they usually turn out pretty good. But probably my biggest success was a lower OG variant of She Devil, using WLP550 rather than WLP510. Really tasty at an ABV of 9.0%.

 

[Kee]

Saisons and Beligian style beers are usually what I brew. For dark strongs I brew variations of CSI's Westy 12 clone recipe (lately using Lallemand Abbaye yeast, since I don't live close to a homebrew supply and hate getting liquid yeast delivered hot) and blonds that usually have Orval dregs added at bottling time, usally brewed with Belle Saison.

I'm still searching for the perfect non-brett blond/tripel recipe.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I'm still searching for the perfect non-brett blond/tripel recipe.

Generally the best Belgian beers are very simple recipes, go with all Pilsner malt and some noble hops to get to the desired IBU.
As far as yeast goes, I prefer WLP530 but the Chimay strain WLP500 is a good choice as well. I'd start it cool for the first couple of days and let it free rise to where it wants to go.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Saison. Pils and a little wheat ( or 30% malted spelt for something different). Long low temp mash. Wy 3724, or 3726 ( much faster to finish ). Champagne bottles and wait 3 months

 

[Kee]

Generally the best Belgian beers are very simple recipes, go with all Pilsner malt and some noble hops to get to the desired IBU.

Agreed. My standard grain bill is 100% Pilsner. I do play around with what simple sugars/candi syrup I add. But while I'm happy with my dark strong and brett beers, my tripels tend to be on the clean side, even when fermented on the warm side (high 70s and above), using most of the popular Belgian yeasts.

 

[SRJHops]

In the spirit of healthy and friendly debate... I disagree that the best Belgian recipes are the simplest. The least interesting ones, to my palate, are the ones with 100% pilsner. They too often taste like an imperial pilsner to me. I personally like a little more malt flavor. Throw in some Vienna or Munich and it will taste better, at least to me. Here's my blond, which won a blue ribbon at the state fair this summer:

11 lbs Dingeman’s Pilsner
2 lbs Briess Bolander Munich malt
1 lb carapils
4 oz Dingemans Biscuit® Malt
1 lb cane sugar at FW

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Congrats on the Ribbon.

Don't know if beer will ever make it to the state fair in Alabama. (Hell might freeze over first)

 

[user 263363]

Nice. I haven't had the opportunity to taste the real thing, but just brewed up a Westvleteren 8 clone on Sunday based on a recipe from the Candi Syrup site. I'm using WLP530, and it's good that I left a lot of headspace in my fermenter because the krausen is huge.

I have brewed several Belgian wits and Trappist-style ales, and they usually turn out pretty good. But probably my biggest success was a lower OG variant of She Devil, using WLP550 rather than WLP510. Really tasty at an ABV of 9.0%.

Keep us updated on that Westie 8 clone! It was unfortunate that when I got my hands on my bottle I only opted for one 8 when I could have had two.

This thread has already given me some good ideas for other Belgian brews.

 

[Kee]

. .. I disagree that the best Belgian recipes are the simplest. I personally like a little more malt flavor. Throw in some Vienna or Munich and it will taste better . . .

11 lbs Dingeman’s Pilsner
2 lbs Briess Bolander Munich maltB
1 lb carapils).
4 oz Dingemans Biscuit® Malt
1 lb cane sugar at FW

Well, we are generalizing here. Simple or complex recipes can work. And I would use Vienna malt in any recipe (not dissing Munich, but I don't use it much).

BTW, what yeast did you use and how much do you think the yeast choice contributed/mattered to your successful outcome?

 

[SRJHops]

Well, we are generalizing here. Simple or complex recipes can work. And I would use Vienna malt in any recipe (not dissing Munich, but I don't use it much).

BTW, what yeast did you use and how much do you think the yeast choice contributed/mattered to your successful outcome?

I think the yeast is the key to success! My theory is that a lot of homebrewers aren't pitching enough yeast. When I made my first Belgian, a tripel, I was so afraid of the high OG that I pitched two slurries and the Be-134 too! It turned out great - in fact, better than any tripel I'd ever had. Kinda rocked my world... While I could never seem to make a NEIPA better than the best, I realized I might be able to make really good Belgians. I soon made my first Saison (also using three yeasts), entered it into my very first contest - and it won! I got to brew it at a local brewery and they put it in crowlers!

For the blond, I used:

Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes
Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale Yeast
SafAle BE-134 Belgian Dry Saison Yeast

 

[mashpaddled]

Belgian beers were my onramp into craft beer and my first homebrew was a Belgian blond. I still brew and drink a lot of Belgian beer. Primarily more saison, wit and lambic but I still enjoy the trappist/abbey styles a ton. I don't brew trappist/abbey styles as often as I could but as they get harder to find in the market the more I will end up brewing them to supplant what I can't find. That's primarily what drove me to start brewing a lot. I lived in Texas at the time and there wasn't a lot of craft options so whatever I wanted I generally had to brew.

How high have you fermented? I've been too chicken to go into the 90's...

When I brewed saisons with 3711 I would regularly take it up to 89-92F. At those temperatures it pumps out more lemon flavor and the phenols are a little more distinctly pepper. Often that yeast is brewed in the 60s-70s where it's kinda boring and amorphously phenolic.

I wouldn't take most yeasts to that range because they don't need it and often produce undesirable products at those temperatures. OTOH a lot of homebrewers are not huge fans of yeast character and tend to ferment on the cool side to restrain yeast character that IMO makes bland beer for these styles. You have to find the fermentation practices that make the beer you like.

Last I read Ommegang shifted all their focus to an IPA and a non-Belgian blonde - Legacy and Liability — To Chart Its Way Forward, Ommegang Has to Reconsider Its Belgian Past — Good Beer Hunting

Since reading that I haven’t seen any new Ommegang in MA. It’s a bummer since that brewery really got me into these beers in early 2000’s.

It's interesting that the article mentions the GoT series because I feel like that's about the time Ommegang started losing their way. Before that they were falling out of favor and not putting out as many unique beers. Then they pushed those generally mediocre GoT beers and that started them down the train of pushing one lousy beer after another and their staple beers seemed to disappear from shelves. The last time I recall buying an Ommegang beer in a store was maybe a couple years ago I tried one of the barrel aged Three Philosophers which was fine. I recently came across Rare Vos on tap which I can't recall the last time I saw anywhere.

They are certainly in a tough place brewing styles people generally don't want these days but I don't recall in the past decade any aggressive attempt to position themselves in the market as something special. The trappist breweries carry the allure of coming from Belgium and being originators of the style. Ommegang doesn't have that cache. They need something to give them space in the market and I wish the best answer they could come up with wasn't to brew IPAs.

 

[Jhedrick83]

Nice. I haven't had the opportunity to taste the real thing, but just brewed up a Westvleteren 8 clone on Sunday based on a recipe from the Candi Syrup site. I'm using WLP530, and it's good that I left a lot of headspace in my fermenter because the krausen is huge.

I have brewed several Belgian wits and Trappist-style ales, and they usually turn out pretty good. But probably my biggest success was a lower OG variant of She Devil, using WLP550 rather than WLP510. Really tasty at an ABV of 9.0%.

Funny. I downloaded that recipe and put it in Beersmith on Monday. Let us know how it goes for sure.