White Wheat Malt as base malt and low efficiency

[james_cornell]

I brewed the wheat IPA recipe here: https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3112-wheat-ipa which calls for almost 100% white wheat. My efficiency tends to hover around 75% but in this case it dropped to 54%. A quick search of the internet found a bunch of people with efficiency issues when using large amounts of wheat malt so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

I double milled the grain at my LHBS and the crush looked fine but I always do that anyways. There was nothing different about this brew day from any other. I batch sparge and hit my mash temp and volumes perfectly - nothing in particular that I could attribute the low efficiency to except the large amount of white wheat malt.

SO here's my question, like I said I found a bunch of people who had similar problems with wheat malt, but not white wheat malt specifically (and the couple times I have found people talking using large amounts of white wheat malt they reported high efficiencies). White wheat malt has a diastatic power of 130 while 2-row is 120, which if I understand that correctly means that it shouldn't present any problems with efficiency that 2-row doesn't. So does the fact that the grain build was largely white wheat malt likely explain the huge drop in efficiency or should I look for another cause?

 

[giraffe]

Did you do a single infusion mash? Did you add rice hulls? Wheat can be gummy, i usually do a step mash with high % wheat malt bills, and add rice hulls. I always get the same efficiency as my normal beers. (73-77%) If you didnt do this, maybe you could have had a gummy mash and got lots of channeling or something.

 

[agrazela]

Water source? Are you controlling mash pH? Not a lot of dark grain there to counteract any alkalinity that might be in your water. Could be your mash pH is too high and not in the optimum range for the enzymes.

 

[james_cornell]

I did single infusion with no rice hulls.

I used Seattle tap water - I don't get that deep with water, could you give me more info or a link on what I should be looking into?

 

[agrazela]

You ideally want to have a mash pH around 5.2-5.4. A good link for reading about how parameters (including pH) affect efficiency:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

Look up the spreadsheet Brun' Water (sp???) for a good resource about water (alkalinity, how much your grain bill and salt and acid additions will counteract it). You will need a full report on your tap water to get the full assist, call your water company. The guy who came up with that spreadsheet (Martin Brungaard, again sp???) is a member of this forum and a far better expert on the topic.

In general, the more alkaline your water, the more dark grain (or added calcium salts and acids) you need to neutralize it. Your grain bill is pretty light color-wise, so your pH might be high (depending on your tap water's alkalinity).

Another possible factor I thought of: I understand wheat grains are harder and smaller than barley grains, so you might need an even tighter crush.

 

[james_cornell]

Yea I've read about issues with the crush. I did run it through the mill twice and it looked pretty well crushed.

 

[rabeb25]

You really need a decoction to maximize wheat malt.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've never done 95% wheat mashes, the highest was 65 or 70%, which included a load of flaked wheat. I'd say it's a combination of a) not so good crush, b) low conversion ability, and c) irrigation and lautering problems, the grist holding on to the sugars. There could have been pH problems as well.

a) Wheat, being small kernels, really needs a tight gap (0.024" on my MM2) to get crushed properly. Milling twice through a gap that's too wide does not make a better crush. Too much passes through unscathed.

b) The lack of a step mash may have contributed to enzymes not being able to get to the starches, the gummy beta glucans plugging up the mash. I'm surprised you didn't have serious lautering problems without using any rice hulls. When I always see a concrete pad forming on top of the mash it's time to shake out some rice hulls. I guess you didn't take a gravity test at the end of the mash, or you would have known something was not working.

c) Having a decent % of barley present helps with lautering and perhaps aids in conversion? Rice hulls really help to get a lusher mash.

 

[ba-brewer]

Wheat is quite a bit smaller than barley so even a double crush might of had a lot of uncrushed kernels which could account for a drop in efficiency.

Also wheat also does not have a husk so if the double crush did work in getting a thorough crush the grain bed might of been more compacted then your normal mashes which could of slowed down the conversion.

How long did you mash and did you check for conversion completion? Once I started calculating the expected first running gravity and checking gravity with a refractometer before sparging I get more consistent efficiency numbers.

 

[thespiff]

Man, every time I look for posts on this I see the same answers. Crush better, manage mash PH, use rice hulls. I get almost a full 10% drop in efficiency when I use 50% wheat in a mash. Light or dark beers, same result. I double-crush wheat and it is practically flour when I'm done. I add 1/2LB of rice hulls. I do a single infusion mash with no mashout and a single batch sparge the same size as my first runnings (the Denny method).

I admit that I don't take mash pH because it's a pain in the ass to keep my cheapo pH meter calibrated and to cool the wort sample down to proper measuring temperature.

I'm considering trying a protein rest, or a mashout, or a longer mash with more stirring? I don't know. I thought about pulling a decoction on the wheat dopplebock I'm making this weekend, but I don't think so.

I have yet to find a post where someone said "I used to get crap efficiency with wheat but then I changed this part of my process and it got better." But there are apparently plenty of people who get worse efficiency when using significant quantities of wheat.

 

[lt9946]

I have had the same problem as you. I received a bunch of wheat malt from a brewery that got it from a Czech maltser that didn't have any specs on the malt. I almost always get 75% efficiency and have been getting 50-60% efficiency with my all wheat beers. I brewed non wheat beers inbetween those batches and keep the same process so know it's not that. I know it's not the crush. I've single crushed, double crushed, and blender it into a powder. I don't have a pH meter but I don't think it's the pH. I've used all pilsner and 2row malts all in the same srm with spring water and have been fine. I've done protein rests which just helps clarify my wheat beers. It was practically see through.

I also biab so lautering is not an issue. I'm going to do a small 1 gl experiment where I start off with a simple 150f infusion, check o.g. at that point, if it's low then let it mash for a total of 2-3 hours and check o.g. again. If there is no change, I'll do another batch with adjusting mash pH based on beersmith calculations.

 

[dwhite60]

What happened?

All the Best,
D. White

 

[thespiff]

I pulled a decoction on my wheat dopplebock (50/50 wheat and munich). 26qt went into the mash at 165 bringing the mash temp to 153. After an hour I pulled a 10qt decoction and boiled it for 10 minutes. When I returned it to the mash it raised the temp to about 170. Let sit for a few minutes then pulled 3.75 gallons first runnings. Sparged with another 3.75 at 170F and collected the rest of my pre-boil 7.5 gallon volume. Ended up with my usual 10% efficiency drop when using lots of wheat.

 

[dpeters]

Did a beer with 40% red wheat and I was 10 points under, the worst I have ever had. I double crushed the wheat, used rice hulls, and my PH was 5.3
This is the first time ever using this much wheat for me so I guess my Wheat IPA will be a Wheat APA that is a little too hoppy. Whatever, next time I use this much wheat I will adjust my efficiency accordingly and move on. Who knows maybe this beer will turn out really good, time will tell.

 

[chudsonvt]

I use large quantities of flaked white wheat (50 to 60%) all the time. And even malted wheat still needs help. Rice hulls and either a decoction or step mash is necessary. I do a 20 minute rest at about 125 to 130 before stepping to my desired temp and my conversion has been great. If you're having issues, after milling properly, start here. A little reading material: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/advancedmashing

 

[dpeters]

I use large quantities of flaked white wheat (50 to 60%) all the time. And even malted wheat still needs help. Rice hulls and either a decoction or step mash is necessary. I do a 20 minute rest at about 125 to 130 before stepping to my desired temp and my conversion has been great. If you're having issues, after milling properly, start here. A little reading material: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/advancedmashing

Your link does explain this well.
"Wheat malt, in particular, has high levels of gums and for this reason a low temperature rest is almost mandatory when mashing wheat. Also, because ferrulic acid is liberated at 111 °F (44 °C), a rest at this temperature is most beneficial for wheat beers. Ferrulic acid binds to pentosanes in grains with ester bonds, and because beta-glucanase degrades both beta glucans and pentosanes, this rest will liberate free ferrulic acid. Free ferrulic acid is important in wheat beers because it is decarboxylized into 4-vinyl guaiacol during fermentation (5), which contributes to the characteristic phenolic flavor.
The combination of temperature rests favoring each amylase leads to maximum extract yield. It is also the different characteristics of these amylases that allows brewers to carefully control the composition of the wort and the character of the finished beer."

I will give this a try next time for sure!

 

[thespiff]

Interesting chudsonvt, thanks for the link. I may be persuaded to try a rest next time I brew wheat-heavy beer. But man I am really turned off to wheat at the moment.

 

[dpeters]

I use large quantities of flaked white wheat (50 to 60%) all the time. And even malted wheat still needs help. Rice hulls and either a decoction or step mash is necessary. I do a 20 minute rest at about 125 to 130 before stepping to my desired temp and my conversion has been great. If you're having issues, after milling properly, start here. A little reading material: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/advancedmashing

I re-made the prior beer with your recommendations and it solved it!

 

[Blackhawks]

I re-made the prior beer with your recommendations and it solved it!

Dpeters - Sorry for resurrecting this thread but I am in the same boat. I did my first BIAB wheat with 50% pils and 50% wheat and I cannot really taste much of the wheat after cracking a few open this weekend.

Did you follow Chudsonvt’s advice and “do a 20 minute rest at about 125 to 130 before stepping to my desired temp”? Or did you follow the article’s advice: “ … because ferrulic acid is liberated at 111 °F (44 °C), a rest at this temperature is most beneficial for wheat beers.”

I milled at 0.025 inch but it was not easy. My 20V 3/8 inch variable speed drill smoked out on me and my Barley Crusher kept seizing. I think I’ll spritz the wheat grains next time but also want to do a 20 minute rest but want the best temperature to use.

Thanks,
B

 

[dpeters]

Dpeters - Sorry for resurrecting this thread but I am in the same boat. I did my first BIAB wheat with 50% pils and 50% wheat and I cannot really taste much of the wheat after cracking a few open this weekend.

Did you follow Chudsonvt’s advice and “do a 20 minute rest at about 125 to 130 before stepping to my desired temp”? Or did you follow the article’s advice: “ … because ferrulic acid is liberated at 111 °F (44 °C), a rest at this temperature is most beneficial for wheat beers.”

I milled at 0.025 inch but it was not easy. My 20V 3/8 inch variable speed drill smoked out on me and my Barley Crusher kept seizing. I think I’ll spritz the wheat grains next time but also want to do a 20 minute rest but want the best temperature to use.

Thanks,
B

I did 125 for 25 minutes and then I went to 154. For the milling I mill the wheat twice and the 2 row or pils once. I have never tried the spritzing thing. I would use rice hulls as it's cheap insurance and it really works well.