Whirlpool the sterile wort or cool it down right away after boil is finished

[waterturtle]

Once boiling is finished it always advised to cool the sterile wort as fast as possible to the temperature suitable for yeasts. The fast wort is cooled, so less it may be contaminated with unwanted bacterias. On the other hand, brewing German wheat beer types, always advised to whirlpool the sterile wort for about 30-60 minutes. Whirlpool will make protein-rich trub to be accumulated in the center-bottom of the brew kettle.

So this is confusing to me - sterile wort should be cooled right away or whirlpool it for an hour and then cooled?
Would like to hear thoughts on this topic

Thanks

 

[bruce_the_loon]

If you do a whirlpool for 30 to 60 minutes, the wort will still be well above the lowest pasteurization temperature of 60°C (140°F) and most likely still above the HTST temperature of 72°C (161°F), so it will still be sterile once the whirlpool is over and you start cooling. Keep the kettle lid on if possible to minimize the chance of dust carrying nasty stuff from getting in while it stands around. The Oxford Companion to Beer Definition of pasteurization

Whirlpool hopping is when you drop the temperature of the wort to below the temperature where hop volatiles become bitter or vaporize and then toss in hops. This adds aroma and flavours that would otherwise be driven off in the last few minutes of the boil. I whirlpool hop for 20 minutes at 75°C (167°F) with no adverse effects on the sanitary status of the wort. The Best Way to Use Whirlpool Hops in Homebrew

 

[Vale71]

1 - boiled wort is not sterile, you'd need an autoclave capable of reaching 121°C for that to be the case
2 - cooling should be fast to achieve adequate cold break formation and to avoid DMS issues, not because of sanitation issues
3 - don't know where you read about the 60 minute whirlpool but such a long whirlpool time is pointless as hot break and hop matter should have fully settled in a matter of a few minutes, if the whirlpool is effective that is

 

[McKnuckle]

The main reason to cool wort relatively quickly is to facilitate the creation and precipitation of cold break. But you do not have to do so with exceptional speed.

Some brewing traditions include a whirlpool phase that serves to infuse hops into hot wort that's been cooled just off the boil (~80ºC). Typically when doing this, the hops also serve as a filter for trub, so the run-off is clearer. It thus meets two goals.

If there are no finishing hops, however, a whirlpool can still be used to generate a trub cone. You only need to generate the whirlpool by stirring for a couple of minutes, and you can/should do it at or near pitching temp, so the cold break is also able to settle. It only needs 20 minutes or less to settle, then you can rack off into your FV.

Personally, I have never been able to get the trub to settle in a cone. It always spreads out, making the process useless, so for me I only "whirlpool" for finishing hops (it's really just a hop stand).

 

[PaleMan]

1 - boiled wort is not sterile

Rubbish, nothing can survive boiling liquid. Unless introduced after the boil.

 

[Vale71]

It's always a good idea to keep one's mouth shut when one doesn't know what one is talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)#Heat
Enjoy.

 

[PaleMan]

It's always a good idea to keep one's mouth shut when one doesn't know what one is talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)#Heat
Enjoy.

Fair call i stand corrected. Having said that, enjoy ( sterilising ) everything with steam. My boil will do.

 

[kevin58]

Don't get too hung up on fast cooling. Many homebrewers now are doing what is called no-chill. They let the wort cool overnight.

Also don't get too hung up on transferring trub into your fermenter. It may even have some benefits.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

It's always a good idea to keep one's mouth shut when one doesn't know what one is talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)#Heat
Enjoy.

Everything that thrives in wort will die in a 100°C 60min boil, so to our purposes wort is sterile, obviously Corona is not going to settle in your wort

 

[Vale71]

Everything that thrives in wort will die in a 100°C 60min boil

No it won't, no matter what people incorrectly believe.

 

[bracconiere]

Everything that thrives in wort will die in a 100°C 60min boil, so to our purposes wort is sterile, obviously Corona is not going to settle in your wort

Good nuff for beer, i think vale is nit picking about the difference between 99% sterile, or just sanitize, and 99.999%, sterile, lol..or some crap like that. but i do know when i pour agar petri dishes, i have to pressure cook the nutrient media at 250f, and 15psi to get sterile pours....

(but i do get away with just soaking the plant matter for cell cultures, or mushrooms in bleach solution before going in the sterile air box)

 

[RM-MN]

So this is confusing to me - sterile wort should be cooled right away or whirlpool it for an hour and then cooled?

As far as I know, only the botulin spores are capable of surviving the boil and they can't propagate in the fermenting beer so while not sterile as in "laboratory sterile" it is as good as necessary. Unless you live in an area with lots of bacteria, don't worry too much about the fast cooling for that. You will get bacteria in, it will try to propagate, but the propagation takes time, lots of time for that bacteria to propagate enough to be a problem. Before that happens you will pitch lots of yeast and they will quickly create conditions that inhibit bacteria from propagating further.

One of the main factors for arguing for fast chilling is the late addition hops. While the wort is over about 170F, the hop oils continue to isomerize, increasing the bitterness and losing much of the aromatic oils that we want for flavor. If you beer only includes bittering hops or bittering and dry hops, the speed of chilling doesn't much matter. For beers with hop additions at 15 minutes or less, chill as quickly as you can to preserve the flavors from these hops.

 

[wstumper]

Rubbish, nothing can survive boiling liquid. Unless introduced after the boil.

Never say never! Of course, the following is something us brewers will likely never encounter... Unless you are brewing in Yellowstone next to the hot springs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2490668/

 

[jddevinn]

Rubbish, nothing can survive boiling liquid. Unless introduced after the boil.

Everything that thrives in wort will die in a 100°C 60min boil, so to our purposes wort is sterile, obviously Corona is not going to settle in your wort

Sanitize
Sanitizing is the reduction of microorganisms .....to a point considered not harmful to humans. It does not guarantee a kill rate of 100 percent, but rather to a minimum kill ratio of 99.9 percent.

Sterilize
Sterilization is the complete inactivation of all organisms: fungi, bacteria, viruses, and spores. Steam requires a minimum of 15 minutes at 250F or 3 minutes at 274F. Dry heat requires at least two hours at 320F

-Yeast the Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation, Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff
(and also many many other sources)

Wort does not need to be sterile as the items that survived sanitation will not be able to overcome the yeast after pitching. If you want to save UNFERMENTED wort, for say future starters, then that does need to be sterile.

Once boiling is finished it always advised to cool the sterile wort as fast as possible to the temperature suitable for yeasts. The fast wort is cooled, so less it may be contaminated with unwanted bacterias. On the other hand, brewing German wheat beer types, always advised to whirlpool the sterile wort for about 30-60 minutes. Whirlpool will make protein-rich trub to be accumulated in the center-bottom of the brew kettle.

So this is confusing to me - sterile wort should be cooled right away or whirlpool it for an hour and then cooled?
Would like to hear thoughts on this topic

Thanks

More on topic... I cool while whirpooling through a counter flow chiller. After I've reached pitching temp (or as close as i can practically get during the summer) I let settle for 10 minutes and then transfer. On the occasional beers that require a hop stand I just turn off the cooling water and set the heating element to maintain at the stand temp (if it is a long enough stand). 30-60 minute Whirlpool as a standard practice seems excessive to me.

One time after a long day I was finishing a beer with 2-3 hop stands. During the last stand ~80-90F ish I forgot to turn the element off when the stand was over. I turned the cooling water back on and could not, absolutely not, understand why I couldn't cool the wort to below 80F when the single pass temp was in the 60Fs. After giving up and starting to transfer to the fermenter I figured out the issue very quickly when the wort level dropped below the heating element top. Don't do that.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Sanitize
Sanitizing is the reduction of microorganisms .....to a point considered not harmful to humans. It does not guarantee a kill rate of 100 percent, but rather to a minimum kill ratio of 99.9 percent.

Sterilize
Sterilization is the complete inactivation of all organisms: fungi, bacteria, viruses, and spores. Steam requires a minimum of 15 minutes at 250F or 3 minutes at 274F. Dry heat requires at least two hours at 320F

-Yeast the Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation, Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff
(and also many many other sources)

Wort does not need to be sterile as the items that survived sanitation will not be able to overcome the yeast after pitching. If you want to save UNFERMENTED wort, for say future starters, then that does need to be sterile.



More on topic... I cool while whirpooling through a counter flow chiller. After I've reached pitching temp (or as close as i can practically get during the summer) I let settle for 10 minutes and then transfer. On the occasional beers that require a hop stand I just turn off the cooling water and set the heating element to maintain at the stand temp (if it is a long enough stand). 30-60 minute Whirlpool as a standard practice seems excessive to me.

One time after a long day I was finishing a beer with 2-3 hop stands. During the last stand ~80-90F ish I forgot to turn the element off when the stand was over. I turned the cooling water back on and could not, absolutely not, understand why I couldn't cool the wort to below 80F when the single pass temp was in the 60Fs. After giving up and starting to transfer to the fermenter I figured out the issue very quickly when the wort level dropped below the heating element top. Don't do that.

That's what I was saying, a car can't be used in water and that doesn't make it unsafe because we don't use cars in the water. So that's the same, to our purposes it's sterile, we are not creating any medical liquid of any sort

 

[jddevinn]

That's what I was saying, a car can't be used in water and that doesn't make it unsafe because we don't use cars in the water. So that's the same, to our purposes it's sterile, we are not creating any medical liquid of any sort

You can't change the definition of a technical word just because you want to. Sterile means 100% clean of all organisms regardless of use.

This morning, I walked into my office, poured out the left over coffee in my mug, rinsed with water and refiled. This is clean enough for my coffee cup. This does not mean "for my purpose it's sterile", it means it is clean enough for my purpose.

We know what OP meant, and it doesn't affect much in this context. However, in OTHER contexts in brewing that are discussed on this site it does. So someone is going to immediately correct him

 

[Qhrumphf]

In some brewing contexts sterile very much matters (yeast ranching stuff like plating or making a slant for storage, or long term wort storage). In most cases it doesn't.

It's not "for our purposes" anything. It's knowing what level is appropriate when. In most brewing-related activities flash pasteurization is plenty. But that's not "sterile for our purposes".

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also if you're going to whirlpool you only need a brief spin (like 5-10 mins) followed by enough time to settle (another 15-20 mins).

 

[Vale71]

That's what I was saying, a car can't be used in water and that doesn't make it unsafe because we don't use cars in the water. So that's the same, to our purposes it's sterile, we are not creating any medical liquid of any sort

Just like you can't be more or less pregnant something cannot be more or less sterile. If people keep repeating this false statement often enough then they start believing it's true and could end up doing unsafe things, like long-term storage of non-sterile wort.

 

[Beermeister32]

How would you view the new "starter wort in a can" then? I don't think canning lines are hot enough to provide sterile conditions.

 

[Vale71]

Unless they're packaged illegally then they most certainly are.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree that sterile and sanitised are different things but instead of standing on a tall soapbox, all participants could have just said " I think you meant sanitary, not sterile" and moved on with the conversation. Sometimes polite is better than right. I digress.

The whirlpool can happen after the chill. In the case of a hop stand, I drop an immersion chiller in, whirlpool and chill to 180f and add my hops. After 15 minutes turn the chilling water back on, get it to 65f, remove the chiller and whirlpool for 3 more minutes. Shut everything down and put the lid on for 30 to 45 minutes to allow settling before transfer.

If no hopstand, chill directly to 65f in one shot but everything else is the same. Super clear wort into the FV this way.