Whirlpool and plate chiller

[pretzelb]

I just upgraded to a new system that includes three new things - a whirlpool port, elbow drainage port, and a plate chiller. I'm looking at my connections and I was wondering from a technique point of view do you whirlpool through the chill plate? Or do you bypass the chill plate with the whirlpool, then re-route the drainage to the chill plate and re-route the drainage port to the fermenter?

I was thinking of starting the whirlpool with the plate chiller in the loop (and avoiding the need to switch hoses) but then it seemed like that would clog the plate chiller and ruin the point of a whirlpool. On the other hand, from what I've read, many people will start the whirlpool near the end of the boil to sanitize the chiller.

 

[schematix]

I go BK -> Pump 1 -> Pump 2 -> Plate Chiller -> BK. Whirlpool arm on the return side, regular dip tube at the outlet of the BK.

I start running it with 15 minutes to go in the boil and let it run until the thermometer at the outlet of the plate chiller reads above 205, then i shut it off. Every few minutes i turn it back on then back off until its time to knock out.

If i use more than a couple oz of hops in a 10G batch it clogs every time, guaranteed. I'm about to throw out this f'in plate chiller. I spend twice as much time cleaning this thing as I gain in faster cooling times.

 

[microbusbrewery]

I would whirlpool through the plate chiller using a hop spider, either a homemade one or one like this, https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php

The hop spider keeps the hop debris from clogging the chiller. This allows you to chill the entire batch at once (see Jamil's site for benefits http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php). If you like hoppy beers, this kind of setup lets you easily do hop stands because you can chill to sub-isomerization temperatures, then hold it while you whirlpool for however long you want to whirlpool.

 

[schematix]

Hop spider worked well at preventing the clogging, but utilization was crap. Hop stands were especially bad. YMMV.

Now when i do a hopstand I throw in a few oz of high alpha hops at the beginning, or use hop extract. Then cool down to 170-180, then free ball in a big hop addition and do not recirculate. The hops will eventually settle and you can do a single pass chill to the fermenter. The settling time helps a lot getting the hops out of suspension too.

 

[wyowolf]

I have a Duda Diesel Plate chiller, Love it. However I dont whirlpool through it. I use a SS hop spider which I agitate quite a bit to make sure it all gets used. I just run StarSan through the wort side before I cool it. Then immediately hook up the garden hose connection and blast it back and forth with lots of water. So far I havent had any issues. I can get my 10 gal cooled in one pass to about 60ish depending upon water temp. thinking of using a Hop Filter inline just to be safe for IPAs.

 

[kombat]

My setup is identical to the OP's. I do not whirlpool through my plate chiller. I also do not contain my hops in a hop spider (as microbusbrewery suggested) for the exact reason schematix cited: It decreased my hop utilization noticeably. Here's what I do:

My 15 gallon BK has a whirlpool port about 1/3 of the way up (so it's submerged even for 5 gallon batches), and an elbow pickup tube on the outlet port. Hops get thrown directly into the kettle - no sock or spider.

During the boil, I hook up my hoses, pump, and chiller to a small bucket of StarSan and recirculate StarSan through everything to sanitize it. Of course, the pump and hoses will get sanitized during whirlpooling - this is mainly just to sanitize the plate chiller and "COLD WORT OUT" line. I run this for 5 minutes or so, then disconnect and drain everything. I then hook the system up as follows: BK outlet port -> pump -> whirlpool inlet port. At flameout, I add any steeping hops, then I whirlpool for 5 minutes or so, then shut off the pump, put the lid on the kettle, and let it settle for 15-20 minutes. I close the whirlpool port valve, disconnect that line and connect it to "HOT WORT IN" on my plate chiller. Careful, it's hot.

When it's time to chill, I start the flow of chill water, then turn the pump back on, with the cold wort out line feeding a carboy. I have a thermometer and a valve on the "COLD WORT OUT" port of my chiller, so I can throttle the flow of wort to achieve the desired cooling temperature. While this runs, I collect the waste chill water in buckets to use for cleaning later. After I've filled 3 buckets (1 PBW, 2 plain), I just dump the extra chill water down my driveway until the wort level in the kettle reaches the bottom and it starts sucking break and hop trub, then I kill the pump. This takes maybe 5 minutes for a 5 gallon batch.

Cleanup can be annoying, but I use stainless quick-disconnects on my lines, so for an initial blast, I connect my chilling water line to the "COLD WORT OUT" line of my chiller and open my faucet up wide open to blast the inside of the chiller, then do the same thing with my whirlpool port on the kettle. This just gets the bigger pieces. I then give the kettle a quick rinse to get the big particles, then dump in some hot PBW and recirculate it backwards through the chiller and the whirlpool port for 5 minutes or so, then do it again with hot rinse water, then finally one more time with cold rinse water, scrubbing the kettle while this is happening. Then I have everything up to dry.

 

[pretzelb]

During the boil, I hook up my hoses, pump, and chiller to a small bucket of StarSan and recirculate StarSan through everything to sanitize it. Of course, the pump and hoses will get sanitized during whirlpooling - this is mainly just to sanitize the plate chiller and "COLD WORT OUT" line. I run this for 5 minutes or so, then disconnect and drain everything. I then hook the system up as follows: BK outlet port -> pump -> whirlpool inlet port. At flameout, I add any steeping hops, then I whirlpool for 5 minutes or so, then shut off the pump, put the lid on the kettle, and let it settle for 15-20 minutes. I close the whirlpool port valve, disconnect that line and connect it to "HOT WORT IN" on my plate chiller. Careful, it's hot.

I had not thought of running StarSan in a loop. Is the bucket feeding the pump via gravity or is it "sucking" the StarSan out of the bucket? I don't think I have a bucket with a valve that I could drain via gravity.

I think my issue with whirlpooling is I've never let it sit for long enough. And I never had a true elbow drain tube on the BK. I wasn't sure if people who whirlpool just don't use a chill plate.

The one sure mess I can see is changing the whirlpool in connecting hose.

 

[kombat]

I had not thought of running StarSan in a loop. Is the bucket feeding the pump via gravity or is it "sucking" the StarSan out of the bucket? I don't think I have a bucket with a valve that I could drain via gravity.

I use a Chugger pump to whirlpool, so I have to "prime" it first. I use my grant to accomplish this. I fill it with StarSan, then connect a tube from its output barb to the pump's input, then the pump's output goes to the chiller's "HOT WORT IN" port, then finally the output tube from the chiller's "COLD WORT OUT" port is fed back into the grant. My grant is a simple 2-gallon bucket fitted with a ball valve and hose barb:

I think my issue with whirlpooling is I've never let it sit for long enough. And I never had a true elbow drain tube on the BK. I wasn't sure if people who whirlpool just don't use a chill plate.

When you say "elbow drain tube," are you talking about a pickup tube that goes toward the center of your kettle, then takes a 90° turn toward the outer edge and sucks liquid from the outer rim, or are you talking about a "pickup tube" oriented vertically, that goes toward the center of the kettle, then dives straight down and sucks up liquid from the center of the kettle? Mine is the former; the latter would simply suck up all of the trub that collected in the center during whirlpooling, which is the opposite of what you're going for.

I both whirlpool and use a plate chiller, and I had the same concerns as you when I started. I take these measures to try and keep as much hop gunk and break matter out of my chiller as possible. So far, so good.

The one sure mess I can see is changing the whirlpool in connecting hose.

I close all of the valves before making the switch. A little bit does trickle out while moving the line from the whirlpool port over to the plate chiller after I've finished whirlpooling, and it's a little tricky (because it's boiling hot sugar water!), but I use a folded up piece of paper towel to grip the quick disconnect and insulate my fingers for the couple of seconds it takes to make the switch.

 

[pretzelb]

I'm going to guess that if you use a plate chiller and whirlpool then the steps must be similar to what you are doing. My first issue would be creating a "grant" to cycle the StarSan. This would probably also mean getting a few more connector pieces to work with my combination of camlock disconnects and triclover connectors.

Regarding the switching of the whirlpool intake, I discovered a flaw with the Blichman chiller in that it won't work with triclover connectors. I suppose a 90 degree elbow might fix that, I'm not sure. Without the elbow fix my pump-out to whirlpool-in is all triclover but then my pump-out to chiller-in would be triclover to camlock. I'm starting to think a CFC would have been a smarter choice.

My drainage port is a simple short triclover 90 degree elbow that points straight down and is right on the edge of the kettle. If the trub is in the middle then this should avoid it all unless it flows too fast or gets too close the end of the wort.

 

[kombat]

The grant isn't strictly necessary. Before I built my grant, I just used a plain old bucket of StarSan, I just had to manually fill the lines with StarSan before I could turn on the pump. I built the grant for recirculating wort during vorlauf/mash out, and it just so happens that it also makes it much easier to prime my lines with cleaner and sanitizer when it comes to those steps during brewing.

 

[wi_brewer]

I go BK -> Pump 1 -> Pump 2 -> Plate Chiller -> BK. Whirlpool arm on the return side, regular dip tube at the outlet of the BK.

Just curious, why don't you skip the second pump?

 

[schematix]

Just curious, why don't you skip the second pump?

Extra pressure to push through the plate chiller so I can a better whirlpool.

 

[kombat]

Extra pressure to push through the plate chiller so I can a better whirlpool.

Take the plate chiller out of the equation and you should be fine with the single pump.

 

[Natdavis777]

I whirlpool with a plate chiller, but I use a stainless spider. I have a fairly big spider, as I too, noticed decreased utilization with bagged hops. So the spider allows the hops to still float around free in boiling wort.

With 5 min left, I start recirculating wort: BK>Pump>PlateChiller>Whirlpool port. After flameout, I kick on the water and begin to chill. Once the wort reaches near pitching temps (or ground temps in summer) I kill the pump/water and let it sit for 20 min, then start the water again and runoff into the carboys.

I have no issues with clogged hops. My biggest issue is the degradation of the whirlpool by going through the chill plate. With 11 gal in the kettle, it just doesnt whirlpool fast enough to achieve a good trub cone. Therefore, some trub gets into the carboys, but not a lot.

I cannot get to pitching temps with a single pass through the chiller, so recirculating the wort while cooling is necessary for my process. Clean up consists of some hot PBW recirculating through the pumps and kettles followed by clean water.

 

[schematix]

Take the plate chiller out of the equation and you should be fine with the single pump.

If i take the plate chiller out then i lose the ability to in-line heat sanitize it for each use. Also when i would want to add it back into the loop i'd have to move hoses around, which makes a huge f'in mess. I don't have a problem with using 2 pumps. It's just more horsepower and hoses I already have.

I love the performance of the plate chiller but i'm at my wit's end with it. I'm getting close to the point of trying out an immersion (slower but simple cleaning), a CFC (slower but less hard to clean and clog resistant) or there was a recent thread about using a shell and tube heat exchanger that seems more plug resistant (probably no benefit over a CFC though).

 

[pretzelb]

I'm starting to think a beefed up immersion chiller might be a simplified option. Since I will now have the ability to whirlpool, that should help with the cooling time.

 

[lupulinaddict]

I don't want to hijack, but I just built a similar system, and it seems like the op might benefit if he is one the fence about the plate chiller.

I have only brewed on it twice so far but I don't get very good pressure out of my plate chiller to whirlpool. I go bk, center inlet chugger, therminator, back to kettle. My "whirlpool" port is higher. Are you guys re-entering the bk from the top of the kettle or bottom or mid section?

It seems like if I clean everything prior to brewing I have decent pressure while I am running cleaner through the setup, but when run hot wort through it slows way down, almost to a gravity fed speed. I think my issue is more or less on learning how to use the pump and valves correctly. First brew couldn't get it to work at all so I figured I plugged it. Last brew I used a ss scrubber as a hop filter in the bk so that helped that concern. When I open my drain valve I see wort in the hose so I open the pump out valve and turn it on. It seems like it sucks from the bk faster than it can push thru the chiller because the inlet hose emptied and two times my pump made a loud springing sound and stopped sucking. I thought I broke it. Anyway, I switched pumps to see if the pump was having the issue and ended up running the pump out valve half closed to restrict the flow and that seemed to work better. I would keep wort in the inlet hose, but no pressure. When I filled the carboy, like I said, felt like I was back to gravity feeding so couldn't whirlpool if I wanted to. I use the same pump on my hlt and use an tangential port about mid section and that gets my water moving, but I also have full hoses, no air.

 

[Natdavis777]

I go BK -> Pump 1 -> Pump 2 -> Plate Chiller -> BK. Whirlpool arm on the return side, regular dip tube at the outlet of the BK.

I did this on my last brew (went through two pumps instead of one) and man did it really increase my 11gal whirlpool. Again, I use a huge stainless spider, so I dont have to worry about hop matter, but it definitely solved my weak whirlpool issue whilst running the chiller inline.