Which Water Profile for ESB

[Mekchu]

I'm getting ready to brew my first ESB and am uncertain which profile to use in BrunWater 1.25.
The choices seems to be Pale Ale or Mild Ale.
The pale ale profile is Ca 140, Mg18, Na 25, S 300, Cl 55, HCO3 110
The mild ale profile is Ca 50, Mg 0, Na 20, S 40, Cl 65, HCO3 45

Which would give the best representation of ESB?

The grain bill is:
7 lb marris otter
1/2 lb crystal 60
1 lb flaked corn

Fuggle and Kent Golding hops
WLP002 English Ale yeast
(Palmer recipe)

I use the BrunWater pale ale profile for my American Pale Ale. It has relatively high Ca and S which I guess bring out the hops. I'm also guessing ESB does not need such a strong hops taste. I'm not really sure what exactly ESB should taste like, but I don't want mine to be my APA, just less carbonated.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[marc1]

Whatever you do, do not target any amount of HCO3.
Use it only for pH adjustment if necessary.
If you're starting out with water profiles, keep it simple and target only S and Cl.
The amounts of each are personal preference. I generally prefer S under 200. IIRC the last time I did this style it was something like 150S and 75Cl.

Edit: Just looked up the water from past batches and it was more like 100-125S and 50-70Cl.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm not a fan of matching profiles, because they set an amount of bicarbonate that may or may not be needed. For my English bitters, I aim for 150ppm Calcium coming from Gypsum and Calcium chloride. 2:1 sulphate to chloride. Some brewers go way higher with the salts though. If a beer needs bicarbonate, I go with baking soda. Also, IMO english crystal (or even better, Simpsons dark crystal) are well worth trying to get hold of in place of straight crystal 60.

 

[Mekchu]

Whatever you do, do not target any amount of HCO3.
Use it only for pH adjustment if necessary.
If you're starting out with water profiles, keep it simple and target only S and Cl.
The amounts of each are personal preference. I generally prefer S under 200. IIRC the last time I did this style it was something like 150S and 75Cl.

Typically I use gypsum and calcium chloride in some combination to dial in the calcium and get the sulfate and chloride relatively close to whatever profile I'm looking at. But your suggesting that sulfate and chloride should be the drivers and let calcium roam the ballpark? So to speak.

My water is relatively high in bicarbonates so I typically use some level of lactic acid to bring it down and control pH. So, I guess I am chasing the bicarbonate profile.

If I remember correctly, it took me 30 minutes to figure that one out!

Cheers, thanks for you help.

 

[Mekchu]

I'm not a fan of matching profiles, because they set an amount of bicarbonate that may or may not be needed. For my English bitters, I aim for 150ppm Calcium coming from Gypsum and Calcium chloride. 2:1 sulphate to chloride. Some brewers go way higher with the salts though. If a beer needs bicarbonate, I go with baking soda. Also, IMO english crystal (or even better, Simpsons dark crystal) are well worth trying to get hold of in place of straight crystal 60.

Thanks for your advise.

As mentioned above typically I'm using lactic acid to lower bicarbonates.

I'll try your suggested ratio. My LHBS doesn't have anything I recognize as English crystal, but hey do have a Simpsons Double Roasted Crystal Malt 110L. Would you sub that 1:1 for straight crystal 60?

Cheers

 

[tracer bullet]

I wouldn't change the Lovibond, I'd just go with the closest Caramel. Changing L will really change the flavor, a lot. Changing types maybe a little, but nowhere near as much.

 

[marc1]

Typically I use gypsum and calcium chloride in some combination to dial in the calcium and get the sulfate and chloride relatively close to whatever profile I'm looking at. But your suggesting that sulfate and chloride should be the drivers and let calcium roam the ballpark? So to speak.

My water is relatively high in bicarbonates so I typically use some level of lactic acid to bring it down and control pH. So, I guess I am chasing the bicarbonate profile.

If I remember correctly, it took me 30 minutes to figure that one out!

Cheers, thanks for you help.

I don't worry about the calcium levels other than that there's some there. Other experienced brewers do.

Even if your water has high bicarbonate, you still don't want to be targeting an amount of it, instead you deal with what you have. Which it sounds like you are doing.

 

[marc1]

Thanks for your advise.

As mentioned above typically I'm using lactic acid to lower bicarbonates.

I'll try your suggested ratio. My LHBS doesn't have anything I recognize as English crystal, but hey do have a Simpsons Double Roasted Crystal Malt 110L. Would you sub that 1:1 for straight crystal 60?

Cheers

I like Simpsons DRC, but it will make a different beer than your recipe.
So you can use it if you want, it would be delicious, just different. If you're not dead set on that recipe then try it!
You could even brew it twice, once with C60, and once with DRC. Then you can see what it brings to the table.

 

[Mekchu]

I like Simpsons DRC, but it will make a different beer than your recipe.
So you can use it if you want, it would be delicious, just different. If you're not dead set on that recipe then try it!
You could even brew it twice, once with C60, and once with DRC. Then you can see what it brings to the table.

I think I will try the comparison. Too late to switch now. The brew store called this afternoon and my order is ready for pickup. I didn't ask him to keep the grains separate so most likely he mixed them. I'm pretty bored, but not quite ready to pick out 1/2 lb of crystal 60 from maris otter.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I'm getting ready to brew my first ESB and am uncertain which profile to use in BrunWater 1.25.
The choices seems to be Pale Ale or Mild Ale.

I would look at the "Amber Dry" or "Amber Balanced" profiles. I think the "Yellow" ones are very similar to those.

 

[Mekchu]

I would look at the "Amber Dry" or "Amber Balanced" profiles. I think the "Yellow" ones are very similar to those.

Yes, these profiles are fairly similar. It's the pale ale calcium 140ppm, and sulfate 300ppm that's the outlier

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Yes, these profiles are fairly similar. It's the pale ale calcium 140ppm, and sulfate 300ppm that's the outlier

Personally, I brewed a Pale Ale (or maybe an IPA) with ~250 ppm of Sulfate and it was a noticeable minerally character that I did not enjoy. I have been happier with my Pale Ales and IPAs in the 150 Sulfate range, but your preferences may differ. These are for American versions, as I generally like the more crisp + hoppy + bitterness of American IPAs and Pale Ales.

Some English profiles are really minerally. I cannot see myself wanting a beer with the classic "Burton" water profile.

The "Mild Ale" profile is for a sub 4% malty beer, and the Pale Ale profile is for a classic American Pale Ale or IPA. I would not use either for an English beer.

 

[mabrungard]

I enjoy 200 plus ppm sulfate in many pale ales and IPAs, but it may not be ideal in a typical ESB where malt and caramel may be desirable. I believe that most would want at least 100 ppm sulfate and probably almost that much chloride too.

 

[Mekchu]

I enjoy 200 plus ppm sulfate in many pale ales and IPAs, but it may not be ideal in a typical ESB where malt and caramel may be desirable. I believe that most would want at least 100 ppm sulfate and probably almost that much chloride too.

Thanks! I think I will play with this a bit and see how results change, or if I can tell the difference.

 

[2_gal_brewer]

How did it turn out?

My thoughts-
No corn - Not typically used in UK beers, just use barley malts.

 

[DBhomebrew]

For much of the late 19th and 20th centuries, flaked maize in British beer was ubiquitous.

 

[2_gal_brewer]

Interesting, thanks!
I have not seen it listed in posted ingredients and not here in this from Fuller's. But I know they used adjunct sugars. I had thought corn was a USA thing.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...imperials-neipa-from-the-horses-mouth.642756/
Also this does not talk about maize but it mentions a lot of uses of sugars.= from historical documents,
https://boakandbailey.com/2017/04/why-did-brewers-use-sugar/
This cost study (1969) referenced in the last does list Maize and derived syrup in the ingredients for cost tradeoffs so it suggests they were used. bt I have been unable to find a good reference, the search engines are not helping me
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1969.tb03208.x

 

[DBhomebrew]

This is a search for "maize" on Ron Pattinson's blog. Ron's sources are original brewery records.

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=01358...kins.blogspot.com/?m=0&ref=&ss=1261j1033801j3