Which Water Calculator to Use

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jtp137

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Going to build up some distilled water for the first time to brew a Vienna Lager. I was playing around with Brun Water and brewers fiend and i noticed with the same salt additions the sodium is higher in brewers friend and the calcium is lower in brewers friend compared to Brun water also the lactic acid additions are different to bring the ph to 5.3 which one do you guys use
 
Ive used Brun water for the last 2 years or so. Its predicted mash ph tend to be quite accurate compared with my ph meter. It hasnt been off by more than 0.1.
 
Second the recommendation for Bru'n water. I've just started with water additions and PH control and I find it simple to use. Plus, Martin actively trolls this forum and often posts contributions that help make use clearer.
 
I'm a big advocate for the Brewer's Friend advanced water calculator. I find it much easier to use than Bru'n, and while I can't confirm its predictions with a meter, I have successfully brewed dozens of batches using 5.4-5.5 as a target mash pH range.

I build using distilled water, and don't aim for any of the style or regional profiles. I have basic mineral concentration guidelines that I follow for balanced, hoppy, or malty beers. Then I adjust for pH if necessary. It's a practical, non-fussy approach that has worked well for me so far.
 
I'm a big advocate for the Brewer's Friend advanced water calculator. I find it much easier to use than Bru'n, and while I can't confirm its predictions with a meter, I have successfully brewed dozens of batches using 5.4-5.5 as a target mash pH range.

Building from distilled or RO is very easy to get in your target area. It's treading tap water that's a bit more complicated.

Without testing it though, there's no real way to tell how well it's estimating.

Another +1 for bru'n water.
 
I'm a big advocate for the Brewer's Friend advanced water calculator. I find it much easier to use than Bru'n, and while I can't confirm its predictions with a meter, I have successfully brewed dozens of batches using 5.4-5.5 as a target mash pH range.

EDIT: Please take note: I always confuse BeerSmith and Brewer's Friend. The comments here are the result of my looking at BeerSmith2 and NOT Brewer's Friend. I have found some funny stuff there too though. I did get it right in the penultimate paragraph below however.

One can easily check the calculations of any of these programs using software that is based on sound chemical principles and doing this the program definitely comes up wanting in the water chemistry area. I feel, therefore, that would be users of it should be cautioned. As an example, the Dublin water profile cannot physically exist. In order to prepare that water the pH would have to be 9.62 rather than the specified 8.00 and would have alkalinity of 224. While water of pH that high does come out of taps as does water with pH 9.62 but never together as that combination implies a carbonate ion content of 48 mg/L which is 2.4 orders of magnitude (250 times) higher than possible for the specified calcium level. Clearly one cannot synthesize what cannot exist. I also checked the Munich, Vienna and Dortmund profiles and they suffer from similar difficulties.

Similarly, the Deer Park profile cannot exist. For the level of specified bicarbonate (32.9 mg/L) the water would have to have pH 3.57 and be under 8.9 atmospheres of CO2 pressure! One could synthesize it at pH 7.6 (the spec) resulting in a bicarbonate level of 16.5 and of one wanted to brew with a water resembling Deer Parks this is what one should do, i.e. correct the bicarbonate to a reasonable level and then run the synthesis. But how is the user to know what a reasonable value for the bicarbonate is if the spreadsheet doesn't tell him?

There is a glaring problem with the synthesis algorithm in that it does not ask the user at what pH he wants the synthesis done. When one adds chalk to water the pH changes and in most cases when chalk is added and a reasonable pH sought some form of acid is needed. The algorithm here appears to blithely ignore the fact at each proton absorbed by chalk must be supplied by something else in imitation of the way nature uses chalk. By recognizing that the pH shift induced by adding chalk needs to be offset by CO2 one can acheive, in the Deer Park case, an profile that has rms error about 1/3 of what the program gives.
It is clear that the author(s) of this software don't understand basic brewing water chemistry.


I build using distilled water, and don't aim for any of the style or regional profiles. I have basic mineral concentration guidelines that I follow for balanced, hoppy, or malty beers. Then I adjust for pH if necessary. It's a practical, non-fussy approach that has worked well for me so far.

Then you aren't using the water calculator functions in this program. The OP question here was as to what is the best water calculator to use. The answer is clearly not BeerSmith2. So now that I've said what it isn't it is fair to ask what it is. All the ones I've looked at have some flaws of this nature. I suppose the answer depends on what one wants to do with it. I guess the best thing to do is try them all and see which one you like. Most readers here cannot be expected to wish to learn the chemistry required to be able to detect the flaws in these programs nor assess their seriousness. Those that are will write their own programs or develop their own spreadsheets.

I guess the poster here is saying "Don't use it for water chemistry but otherwise it's fine". If you can live with that it's OK but I would advise people who want to be able to adjust water using a calculator to stay away from it. I also can't find any place where guidance is given on how to adjust mash pH with lactic or phosphoric acids. That's almost a sine qua non for brewing software these days.
 
Ajdelange,

I'm a little confused by your post and need clarification.
You mention two different water calculators: Beersmith2 and Brewersfriend. Brewersfriend has a Dunblin profile to select as a target but I don't see a Deer Park one. Deer park is availible as a water source in Beersmith 2. So your talking about Beersmith 2 when you mention the Deer Park profile?
 
One can easily check the calculations of any of these programs using software that is based on sound chemical principles and doing this the Brewer's Friend program definitely comes up wanting in the water chemistry area.
...
The OP question here was as to what is the best water calculator to use. The answer is clearly not BeerSmith2.

This cross reference is confusing, AJ. How did you go from Brewer's friend to BeerSmith2?

I'll agree that BeerSmith2 water profile tool isn't a science based calculator at all. Part of the whole program's charm and popularity lies in that very flaw, since quite a few of its calculations are crowd sourced and adjusted to give feel-good pseudo-accuracy. So, it shouldn't even be in this conversation, right? Brewer's Friend has some similar pseudo-accuracy issues, as well.
 
Ajdelange,

I'm a little confused by your post and need clarification.
You mention two different water calculators: Beersmith2 and Brewersfriend. Brewersfriend has a Dunblin profile to select as a target but I don't see a Deer Park one. Deer park is availible as a water source in Beersmith 2. So your talking about Beersmith 2 when you mention the Deer Park profile?

Yes (I always get the two confused) and in the rest of the post too which sort of makes it pointless as the guy was talking about Brewer's Friend. I have just been thinking more about these programs and working with the free trial copy of BeerSmith2. I have always thought Brewers Friend to be more solid than most because of its author's (Kai) sound approach to the chemistry so this goof is particularly embarrassing. I do apologize for the confusion.
 
Ive used Brun water for the last 2 years or so. Its predicted mash ph tend to be quite accurate compared with my ph meter. It hasnt been off by more than 0.1.

+1 - Bru'n Water always hits mash ph for me using both distilled and tap. I use a combination of lab analysis, water report, and home testing kits to estimate mineral content of my tap water. Must be working relatively well, 'cause Bru'n Water hits the target every time.
 
Yes (I always get the two confused) and in the rest of the post too which sort of makes it pointless as the guy was talking about Brewer's Friend. I have just been thinking more about these programs and working with the free trial copy of BeerSmith2. I have always thought Brewers Friend to be more solid than most because of its author's (Kai) sound approach to the chemistry so this goof is particularly embarrassing. I do apologize for the confusion.

Thank you for your response. I've found Brewersfriend to be pretty good. The reason I use it is for the ability to save my water profiles and reload them into the calculator. Then I can adjust as I adjust the recipe.

I do BIAB an have found the calculator to get me in the ballpark with ph but not right on. The same with Bru n water.

I would love to see beersmith add a better water calculator. During brew day I bounce back forth between Brewersfriend and Beersmith. It would be nice to have it all in one place. And offline.
 
EDIT: Please take note: I always confuse BeerSmith and Brewer's Friend. The comments here are the result of my looking at BeerSmith2 and NOT Brewer's Friend. I have found some funny stuff there too though. I did get it right in the penultimate paragraph below however.

One can easily check the calculations of any of these programs using software that is based on sound chemical principles and doing this the program definitely comes up wanting in the water chemistry area. I feel, therefore, that would be users of it should be cautioned. As an example, the Dublin water profile cannot physically exist. In order to prepare that water the pH would have to be 9.62 rather than the specified 8.00 and would have alkalinity of 224. While water of pH that high does come out of taps as does water with pH 9.62 but never together as that combination implies a carbonate ion content of 48 mg/L which is 2.4 orders of magnitude (250 times) higher than possible for the specified calcium level. Clearly one cannot synthesize what cannot exist. I also checked the Munich, Vienna and Dortmund profiles and they suffer from similar difficulties.

Similarly, the Deer Park profile cannot exist. For the level of specified bicarbonate (32.9 mg/L) the water would have to have pH 3.57 and be under 8.9 atmospheres of CO2 pressure! One could synthesize it at pH 7.6 (the spec) resulting in a bicarbonate level of 16.5 and of one wanted to brew with a water resembling Deer Parks this is what one should do, i.e. correct the bicarbonate to a reasonable level and then run the synthesis. But how is the user to know what a reasonable value for the bicarbonate is if the spreadsheet doesn't tell him?

There is a glaring problem with the synthesis algorithm in that it does not ask the user at what pH he wants the synthesis done. When one adds chalk to water the pH changes and in most cases when chalk is added and a reasonable pH sought some form of acid is needed. The algorithm here appears to blithely ignore the fact at each proton absorbed by chalk must be supplied by something else in imitation of the way nature uses chalk. By recognizing that the pH shift induced by adding chalk needs to be offset by CO2 one can acheive, in the Deer Park case, an profile that has rms error about 1/3 of what the program gives.
It is clear that the author(s) of this software don't understand basic brewing water chemistry.




Then you aren't using the water calculator functions in this program. The OP question here was as to what is the best water calculator to use. The answer is clearly not BeerSmith2. So now that I've said what it isn't it is fair to ask what it is. All the ones I've looked at have some flaws of this nature. I suppose the answer depends on what one wants to do with it. I guess the best thing to do is try them all and see which one you like. Most readers here cannot be expected to wish to learn the chemistry required to be able to detect the flaws in these programs nor assess their seriousness. Those that are will write their own programs or develop their own spreadsheets.

I guess the poster here is saying "Don't use it for water chemistry but otherwise it's fine". If you can live with that it's OK but I would advise people who want to be able to adjust water using a calculator to stay away from it. I also can't find any place where guidance is given on how to adjust mash pH with lactic or phosphoric acids. That's almost a sine qua non for brewing software these days.

It sounds like most water software/calculators give fairly inconsistent and varying data. Would you recommend skipping the calculators all together and if so what would one do in its place?
 
It sounds like most water software/calculators give fairly inconsistent and varying data. Would you recommend skipping the calculators all together and if so what would one do in its place?

I don't think AJ is active here anymore.

If you don't use any calculator, and you just guess, that would generally be worse than using a calculator. And if you just try to hit your mash pH by incrementally adding acids or bases, the mash is proceeding far (probably) from your pH target until you hit the target.

I recommend MpH, either the standalone available (free) here:
http://homebrewingphysics.blogspot.com/2020/
...or, if you need an all-in-one brewing solution which includes MpH built in, BrewCipher, available (free) here:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/library/
Part of the development effort of the current version of the model was a comparison of real world mash pH results to the results given by the model, and subsequent incorporation of a correction factor for buffering capacity of grains in real world homebrew mashes. The result was that MpH compared quite favorably to the other models tested.
 
I don't think AJ is active here anymore.

If you don't use any calculator, and you just guess, that would generally be worse than using a calculator. And if you just try to hit your mash pH by incrementally adding acids or bases, the mash is proceeding far (probably) from your pH target until you hit the target.

I recommend MpH, either the standalone available (free) here:
http://homebrewingphysics.blogspot.com/2020/
...or, if you need an all-in-one brewing solution which includes MpH built in, BrewCipher, available (free) here:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/library/
Part of the development effort of the current version of the model was a comparison of real world mash pH results to the results given by the model, and subsequent incorporation of a correction factor for buffering capacity of grains in real world homebrew mashes. The result was that MpH compared quite favorably to the other models tested.

I had high hopes for the new MpH, but for all the talk about incorporating many of A.J.'s charge conservation principles, it seems all that changed was jettisoning color based malt calcs for the current approach. It doesn't seem as though any of the acid calcs or anything else was changed.
 
I had high hopes for the new MpH, but for all the talk about incorporating many of A.J.'s charge conservation principles, it seems all that changed was jettisoning color based malt calcs for the current approach. It doesn't seem as though any of the acid calcs or anything else was changed.

Rather than replying in detail and perhaps fumbling, I'll ping @dmr, who can speak to this far better than I.
 
Rather than replying in detail and perhaps fumbling, I'll ping @dmr, who can speak to this far better than I.

It’s not a dig at all and I don’t call into question the development of the new calcs, but it seemed as though for all the time that had passed, and for the breadth of conversation that was had about charge conservation here at HBT prior to A.J.’s departure, that there would have been more significant changes.

I implemented all of the charge conservation functions and principles and released them at varying points with mixed results, many of which we have worked out with great success at our personal forum, including malt modeling, acid modeling, handling of Sauermalz etc., but I am in no way saying I did it better. In fact, I still have some work to do. I just expected more from MpH given the time that passed between the announcement of revision and release.

I could also be biased. Super biased actually. It took a lot of work on my part to fully implement A.J.’s functions and algorithms, and in some cases adapt and create new ones to handle unique situations we hadn’t previously talked about. Maybe this would be a good time to dive in and better understand what MpH IS doing, rather than what I think it’s NOT doing.
 
Going to build up some distilled water for the first time to brew a Vienna Lager. I was playing around with Brun Water and brewers fiend and i noticed with the same salt additions the sodium is higher in brewers friend and the calcium is lower in brewers friend compared to Brun water also the lactic acid additions are different to bring the ph to 5.3 which one do you guys use

I believe the free version of Bru'n Water presumes Calcium Chloride to be anhydrous (100% pure) whereas Brewer's Friend presumes it to be ~75.5% by weight CaCl2 and 24.5% water (the dihydrate state). The truth as to the state of CaCl2 is likely in most cases to lie somewhere between these two, although for older CaCl2 that has seen lots of exposure to humidity it can easily be the case that CaCl2 concentration is measurably less than 75.5%, as with each new exposure to air CaCl2 picks up more water. Why not try 'Mash Made Easy', which allows you to specify your CaCl2's percent water concentration due to its hydrate state (permitting also any blend of hydrate states, such as would typically be seen in the real world).

Mash Made easy incorporates AJ's findings that weak acids and bases strengths are dependent upon your chosen pH target and not fixed, and it varies their relative strengths accordingly. Version 9.20 fully implements this variability for both mash and sparge water.
 
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I always use and compare:
Brewers Friend online,
The Brewing Engine (when it was available, ver 1.23),
BrunW (bought ver 5.5),
EzWater Calc (ver 3.0.2, the newer ezrecipe 2.02 flummoxed me a bit)
Mash Made Easy (now v 9.10)
MpH (ver 4.2)

Over the last 43 batches, some light SRM some dark, the avg diff between model and measured is best for Brewers Friend and MME.

For me. For the pH readings I take with the meter I have and for the malts I use.
I don't do malt DipH so the models are only as good as the malt data, which is really one of the drawbacks.

There are surprises and I have the chalk them up to my measuring, meter, methods, and whatever. There are some trends, like how the root mean square of diff between all models' measured and predicted pH, by batch SRM, has a really increase at lower SRM batches.

1593178843436.png
 

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I always use and compare:
Brewers Friend online,
The Brewing Engine (when it was available, ver 1.23),
BrunW (bought ver 5.5),
EzWater Calc (ver 3.0.2, the newer ezrecipe 2.02 flummoxed me a bit)
Mash Made Easy (now v 9.10)
MpH (ver 4.2)

Over the last 43 batches, some light SRM some dark, the avg diff between model and measured is best for Brewers Friend and MME.

I believe MpH 4.2 was released at the end of March. Some of the others may have had fairly recent updates (not sure). Did you happen to run all 43 batches through the most recent version of each?
 
In short, not all.
I am still trying to do all the various updates.
The trends seem to maintain even when updating to newer versions of calculators, but I will fully admit that as I have a sciency background, these values are not ready for peer reviewed publication and are, in the words of my favorite marketing stereotype, only "directionally functional".
 
I have always tried to use Bru'n Water. I have tended to assume something went wrong with my meter before assuming the spreadsheet was wrong.

You assume a lot there. And via flawed logic no less. The presumption that faith trumps hard science.
 
You went back four years to pick a fight with a guy who doesn't care, in order that you can pimp your new website?

This is an active thread. If I'm doing as you presume, then my statement that actual measurement resoundingly trumps faith in mere software (my own assuredly included) seems a rather odd way of going about it. The value of what I'm emphasizing is out there for all on this forum to evaluate. And my hope is that it prevents faith in software from trumping real world testing and evaluation.

If we had placed abject faith in highly sophisticated computer modeling of (for instance) global warming, then the ice caps would be melted and major coastlines would be under water by now. They are not even close to this by a long shot.
 
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1593195729779.png


If I'm doing as you presume

1593195777247.png

Whether or not Martin or AJ had 100% deterministic calculations was not important for me in 2016. In fact, I'm still able to achieve the results I need despite the passage of time. If you think you make a better mousetrap, I'm happy for you. It does not remove the fact that you went back quite a ways (1565 days; or or 4 years, 3 months, 12 days; or Or 51 months, 12 days ... since you seem to love for precision) and argued with a guy who doesn't care.

My favorite so far:

directionally functional

That, exactly. If what I get allows me to create what I need, then it was effective (for me). I am SO going to use that term on this meeting I'm barely listening to. :)

When you're bringing in indirect fire, you often don't need a sniper.
 
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Interesting thread.

Rather than replying in detail and perhaps fumbling, I'll ping @dmr, who can speak to this far better than I.

Well, here goes.

I had high hopes for the new MpH, but for all the talk about incorporating many of A.J.'s charge conservation principles, it seems all that changed was jettisoning color based malt calcs for the current approach. It doesn't seem as though any of the acid calcs or anything else was changed.

It’s not a dig at all and I don’t call into question the development of the new calcs, but it seemed as though for all the time that had passed, and for the breadth of conversation that was had about charge conservation here at HBT prior to A.J.’s departure, that there would have been more significant changes.

Maybe this would be a good time to dive in and better understand what MpH IS doing, rather than what I think it’s NOT doing.

The approach in MpH 4.2 is explicitly based on charge conservation as expounded by AJdL. If you look "under the hood" you will see that the calculations related to mash pH are entirely different than in previous versions (which all used the same math, IIRC).

Calculations that didn't change include equations that convert the amount of an added salt to (i) ppm and (ii) normality of the dissolved ions, but these calculations are straightforward and have no room for interpretation (aside from the hydration states of the Ca and Mg salts, which one can perhaps argue about).

Calculations that convert the amount of acid added to acidity (or, equivalently, alkalinity) also did not change. These, too, are are straightforward and have no room for interpretation.

The major complaint about earlier versions of MpH had to do with poor predictions of mash pH upon the addition of acid to the mash. This flaw has nothing to do with the acid-amount-to-alkalinity calculations, but has everything to do with a poor calculation of malt buffering capacity. (Indeed, I, too, see this issue when I run actual brewed beers through older versions of MpH). I will say that the calcs used in older versions of MpH were based on what I could glean from Kai Troester's experiments, which was about all the relevant information that was readily available back when I first developed MpH. (Aside, KT's data was pretty much what MB had when developing BW. Differences between those older versions of BW and MpH can largely be attributed to slightly different interpretations KT's data.)

The reason I put out a request for people to send me actual pH measurements from their brewed beers was so that I could find the best "universal" correction factor to go from laboratory measurements of buffering capacity on pulverized grains to the buffering capacity of crushed grains in a typical homebrewer setting. This is the "malt buffering correction factor" found on the "Mash pH v4" brewing tab. It very well may be that this factor requires slight adjustment for a particular brewing setup, but I would guess that 0.5 and 0.8 would be the extreme ranges for any situation.

There are surprises and I have the chalk them up to my measuring, meter, methods, and whatever. There are some trends, like how the root mean square of diff between all models' measured and predicted pH, by batch SRM, has a really increase at lower SRM batches.

For the beers that I have run through the various calculators, I find MME, BF, and MpH to be the most accurate. Now I've not quite yet run all the data I have through all of these calculators. In particular, I have yet to look at all the data you sent a while back. Time to do it, I guess. I will say, though, that I have run your batch 128 (Boont Amber) through MpH 4.2 and I get a difference of 0.01 [with a correction factor of 0.65 (which on average appears to give the most accurate results)], while you calculated 0.05. Obviously, we entered at least one thing differently, but this does not necessarily imply user error on either your part or my part. It likely is due to a difference in choice of a malt of two to use for the calculations. Perhaps you could email me a few copies of MpH with several of your beers entered? I would like to track down the difference, in case there is something systematic.

Cheers!
 
Interesting thread.



Well, here goes.





The approach in MpH 4.2 is explicitly based on charge conservation as expounded by AJdL. If you look "under the hood" you will see that the calculations related to mash pH are entirely different than in previous versions (which all used the same math, IIRC).

Calculations that didn't change include equations that convert the amount of an added salt to (i) ppm and (ii) normality of the dissolved ions, but these calculations are straightforward and have no room for interpretation (aside from the hydration states of the Ca and Mg salts, which one can perhaps argue about).

Calculations that convert the amount of acid added to acidity (or, equivalently, alkalinity) also did not change. These, too, are are straightforward and have no room for interpretation.

The major complaint about earlier versions of MpH had to do with poor predictions of mash pH upon the addition of acid to the mash. This flaw has nothing to do with the acid-amount-to-alkalinity calculations, but has everything to do with a poor calculation of malt buffering capacity. (Indeed, I, too, see this issue when I run actual brewed beers through older versions of MpH). I will say that the calcs used in older versions of MpH were based on what I could glean from Kai Troester's experiments, which was about all the relevant information that was readily available back when I first developed MpH. (Aside, KT's data was pretty much what MB had when developing BW. Differences between those older versions of BW and MpH can largely be attributed to slightly different interpretations KT's data.)

The reason I put out a request for people to send me actual pH measurements from their brewed beers was so that I could find the best "universal" correction factor to go from laboratory measurements of buffering capacity on pulverized grains to the buffering capacity of crushed grains in a typical homebrewer setting. This is the "malt buffering correction factor" found on the "Mash pH v4" brewing tab. It very well may be that this factor requires slight adjustment for a particular brewing setup, but I would guess that 0.5 and 0.8 would be the extreme ranges for any situation.



For the beers that I have run through the various calculators, I find MME, BF, and MpH to be the most accurate. Now I've not quite yet run all the data I have through all of these calculators. In particular, I have yet to look at all the data you sent a while back. Time to do it, I guess. I will say, though, that I have run your batch 128 (Boont Amber) through MpH 4.2 and I get a difference of 0.01 [with a correction factor of 0.65 (which on average appears to give the most accurate results)], while you calculated 0.05. Obviously, we entered at least one thing differently, but this does not necessarily imply user error on either your part or my part. It likely is due to a difference in choice of a malt of two to use for the calculations. Perhaps you could email me a few copies of MpH with several of your beers entered? I would like to track down the difference, in case there is something systematic.

Cheers!

I’ll have to look harder. I’m used to seeing things a certain way, mainly charges calculated for each mash component and summed to zero using background functions or macros. I guess, for me at least, given my interactions and work with A.J., charge conservation or charge based pH estimation means I need to calculate charges for all components, sum them, and make that Q Total equal zero by varying my target pH (pHz). This equilibrium pH is the mash pH.

Different strokes is all.
 
I guess, for me at least, given my interactions and work with A.J., charge conservation or charge based pH estimation means I need to calculate charges for all components, sum them, and make that Q Total equal zero by varying my target pH (pHz). This equilibrium pH is the mash pH.

Different strokes is all.

That is one way to do it, and the most straightforward.

However, I prefer a sheet that gives you a predicted pH based on one's inputs of grains, water, salts, and acids. In this case on has to find that zero-charge condition by being a bit more clever. I did this using a set of iterative calculations, which can be found on the sheet "pH Calculations v4".

At some point I hope to writeup what's going on in MpH 4.2 in a paper. Don't know when...

Cheers!
 
That is one way to do it, and the most straightforward.

However, I prefer a sheet that gives you a predicted pH based on one's inputs of grains, water, salts, and acids. In this case on has to find that zero-charge condition by being a bit more clever. I did this using a set of iterative calculations, which can be found on the sheet "pH Calculations v4".

At some point I hope to writeup what's going on in MpH 4.2 in a paper. Don't know when...

Cheers!

You don’t need to vary the pHz to get a prediction from user inputs. I also have a “Find pHz” function that zeros the charge automatically. I keep both calculations in my personal sheet as a sanity check and because frankly, I like clicking the macro button!

I guess I don’t get how you calculate charge of the mash components and that’s what confuses me. I’ll have to take a closer look than I already have at MpH 4.2.
 
I've not quite yet run all the data I have through all of these calculators. In particular, I have yet to look at all the data you sent a while back. Time to do it, I guess. I will say, though, that I have run your batch 128 (Boont Amber) through MpH 4.2 and I get a difference of 0.01 [with a correction factor of 0.65 (which on average appears to give the most accurate results)], while you calculated 0.05. Obviously, we entered at least one thing differently, but this does not necessarily imply user error on either your part or my part. It likely is due to a difference in choice of a malt of two to use for the calculations. Perhaps you could email me a few copies of MpH with several of your beers entered? I would like to track down the difference, in case there is something systematic.

I'll see what I can do. May be a couple days. It's closing week at the salt mine, and things are kinda utzy.
 
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